Inverters and diesel stoves - Help please!

[Verboatin]

Long time since I've made a post here but circumstances have changed and my father is now the proud owner of a 57 foot narrowboat!
He purchased the boat to liveaboard since selling his house and entering retirement at the end of February, however for the last 2 months has been forced to continue living with me as we keep occurring issues on the boat.

The main one currently is with the Invertek Sinewave Combi Inverter.
He found he had no power on the boat despite it being connected to shore power (he is in a marina). We have access to the cabinet and I'm confirmed it hasn't tripped, however when removing the hookup lead I noticed water in the end cap connected to the boat, on the old lead a small slit was cut into the plastic casing to allow water to escape, something we didn't remember when purchasing a longer lead...?
It seems what has happened is the water has interrupted the AC power so the inverter has switched to battery power automatically and drained the battery bank.

After drying out the lead we reconnected everything and nothing came back on, so we run the engine and the inverter lit up, displaying 13.7v with a fast running engine.
We run it for about an hour and then stopped and the voltage simply drops to around 11v and then the inverter bleeps loudly and displays the Uvt error shown.
The AC In led is lit (Orange) and the Bypass and Inverter Leds are flashing green (hard to photograph as the inverter is in a cupboard and I have to reach in and take a photo on my phone to see it clearly); The battery LED is not and will not light up, shouldn't this be lit when shore power is connected to charge the batteries?
I will be revisiting the boat tomorrow after leaving it connected to shore power today.

Second issue relates to the Nordic Diesel Stove and 'central heating' system. (I don't have pictures of this currently, sorry)
The boat has one of these stoves https://www.ruralenergy.com/heating-equipment/var-nor250-nordicstove-25000-series
Connected to it is pipework running to 4 radiators via a pump which appears to have power (switch is lit up) but doesn't seem to come on to move any water around, the pipes get hold up until the pump but no further, there is black/white thermostat next to this but adjusting this or the switch on the pump itself doesn't appear to make a difference. We have already tried bleeding the radiators. The stove ignites and kicks out a good amount of heat, this issue occurred before any issues with the inverter.

Any help would be appreciated, we are in March, Cambridgeshire btw.

Thank you!

 

[BEngo]

Your batteries have been killed. Stone dead, probably.  Letting them fully discharge will have allowed them to sulphate so they have very little capacity.  The combi will probably not charge them from mains because they are knackered and if expects to see a battery voltage before it starts.

 

The engine will charge them, to the extent that the batteries will allow.  It will take much more than an hour's running to get any useful charge into the batteries.  You need to run until the voltage is 14.4 v or close AND the current has stopped falling in the last hour. How big (Amp hours) are the batteries?

The inverter does not want to do anything with the engine off because the battery voltage is too low.

 

Do you have a multimeter with a 20v DC range? If not buy one.  Then disconnect the batteries, wait an hour and measure their terminal voltage. 

 

More details and pictures of the pump as well please. Is it mains or 12V?

 

N

[Tony Brooks]

And those flat batteries may well explain why the central heating pump won't work. Its almost certainly battery powered.

[pete.i]

As said your batteries are toast. Batteries are consumables so, by far, the easiest solution is to replace the batteries. Welcome to the world of expensive boating.

 

[Alan de Enfield]

10 hours ago, Verboatin said:

.............however when removing the hookup lead I noticed water in the end cap connected to the boat, on the old lead a small slit was cut into the plastic casing to allow water to escape, something we didn't remember when purchasing a longer lead.

 

You have already had the probable answer to the problem, but your statement (above) is worrying.

 

You should not be getting water into your shoreline at either end (or anywhere along its length) a steel boat, water and 230v electricity do not good bedfellows make.

 

You should, as some urgency find out how the water is getting into the cable / plug / socket and rectify the problem. Putting a slit in the 'casing' is not the way to make a safe repair.

[Tony Brooks]

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

You have already had the probable answer to the problem, but your statement (above) is worrying.

 

You should not be getting water into your shoreline at either end (or anywhere along its length) a steel boat, water and 230v electricity do not good bedfellows make.

 

You should, as some urgency find out how the water is getting into the cable / plug / socket and rectify the problem. Putting a slit in the 'casing' is not the way to make a safe repair.

 

Absolutely, and I am wondering if the water tripped the shoreside bollard and the OP does not know it needs checking.

[Verboatin]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

You have already had the probable answer to the problem, but your statement (above) is worrying.

 

You should not be getting water into your shoreline at either end (or anywhere along its length) a steel boat, water and 230v electricity do not good bedfellows make.

 

You should, as some urgency find out how the water is getting into the cable / plug / socket and rectify the problem. Putting a slit in the 'casing' is not the way to make a safe repair.

It seems that because the connection on the boat side is mounted vertically, rainwater is running down it and somehow finding its way into the casing and 'filling it up' like a cup.
We already plan to cover the connector with a box to prevent the issue, the slit was something the previous owner had done on their cable so evidentially it was a known problem.

About the batteries:
These are lucas lx31mf which I think are 105AH and it seems we have a bank of 10 (5 on shelves on  each side of the engine bay), we were planning on replacing these anyway so if the batteries are causing all of our issues this wouldn't be a major problem, however something I've noticed is that the LX31MF already fitted are 'twin post' types, we have been offered brand new 110AH leisure batterys for around half the price of these, is there any specific reason you would need twin post batteries or are we ok to replace them with standard leisure batteries that have a higher AH?

The shoreside bollard is not tripped, I have checked it multiple times and each RCD is turned on, the inverter is also showing an AC Input.
Looking at the manual and a very basic understanding seems to suggest that the inverter has an 'undervoltage trip' which I believe is cutting the circuit due to the battery levels, I guess its a good thing really

Thanks all

[Tony Brooks]

The first paragraph suggests to me that the socket is mounted upside down. I would expect the plug and cable to slope downwards away from the bulkhead.

 

Maybe mount the socket on a gasket of closed cell foam leaving the bottom edge without any so it tends to seal the top edge and if any water does get behind it there is an exit point.

[David Mack]

26 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

The first paragraph suggests to me that the socket is mounted upside down. I would expect the plug and cable to slope downwards away from the bulkhead.

There seems to be some disagreement about that:

And it is not a 'socket'. It is an appliance inlet - essentially a plug with male pins, mounted on the bulkhead.

26 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Maybe mount the socket on a gasket of closed cell foam leaving the bottom edge without any so it tends to seal the top edge and if any water does get behind it there is an exit point.

 

That's only really the equivalent of a slit in the plastic casing though.

 

That said, it is exactly how this issue is addressed in mains shower heaters, where you are deliberately spraying water in the vicinity of 240V ac and a wet human body.

Edited April 3, 2021 by David Mack

[GUMPY]

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

The first paragraph suggests to me that the socket is mounted upside down. I would expect the plug and cable to slope downwards away from the bulkhead.

Which is the wrong way to have it.

If the cable goes downwards then water will run down the male part of the connector and inside the female so the socket will fill with water if it's that way up unless it's an IP67 version which most are not.

If the cable goes upwards then water will get in through the cable gland.

The cable should be horizontal no ifs, no ands, and no buts.  

Any other way is wrong.

 

 

Edited April 3, 2021 by Loddon

[Tracy D'arth]

41 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Which is the wrong way to have it.

If the cable goes downwards then water will run down the male part of the connector and inside the female so the socket will fill with water if it's that way up unless it's an IP67 version which most are not.

If the cable goes upwards then water will get in through the cable gland.

The cable should be horizontal no ifs, no ands, and no buts.  

Any other way is wrong.

 

 

Or a flush fitting as on a caravan, with a cover lid. Much neater and water resistant.

[GUMPY]

13 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Or a flush fitting as on a caravan, with a cover lid. Much neater and water resistant.

With them the cable is still horizontal once it leaves the fitting ?

Edited April 3, 2021 by Loddon

[Tracy D'arth]

5 minutes ago, Loddon said:

With them the cable is still horizontal once it leaves the fitting ?

Point taken.  That's why mine never gets wet then.

[Tony Brooks]

Right. I am happy to concede I get confused as to  which is the pluggand which is the socket but look at this image and tell me how the cable side exits horizontally.

 

The OP talks about  water "filling it up' like a cup" and that is exactly what could happen if its mounted upside down.

 

Apart from making up a shaped mounting block I would love to know how you get the wire out of that horizontally.

[Slim]

24 minutes ago, Loddon said:

With them the cable is still horizontal once it leaves the fitting ?

I have caravan sockets front and rear. When plugged into either the shore power female plug/socket is horizontal with the lead going into it dropping down. The female plug/socket has the open enclosure lid above it giving some weather protection. Worked for 20 years + without issue.

1 minute ago, Slim said:

I have caravan sockets front and rear. When plugged into either the shore power female plug/socket(call it what you will) is horizontal with the lead going into it dropping down. The female plug/socket connection with the male plug/socket is within the enclosure and has the open enclosure lid above it giving some weather protection. Worked for 20 years + without issue.

 

[GUMPY]

9 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Right. I am happy to concede I get confused as to  which is the pluggand which is the socket but look at this image and tell me how the cable side exits horizontally.

Mount it so the pins are horizontal and the fixing holes are one above the other.

[Tracy D'arth]

Lets clear it up. The bit that is live when unplugged is the socket whether fixed or on the end of a lead. The bit with pins that becomes live when plugged in is always a plug even if screwed to the boat.

[GUMPY]

Like this

 

 

 

Edited April 3, 2021 by Loddon

[GUMPY]

16 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Lets clear it up. The bit that is live when unplugged is the socket whether fixed or on the end of a lead. The bit with pins that becomes live when plugged in is always a plug even if screwed to the boat.

Appliance inlet is the technical description of the bit on the boat ?

[Verboatin]

Ok GOOD NEWS!
We run the boat again for another hour today, successfully got the reading to show 14V which dropped to 12v when the engine was off.
This allowed me to change the programs to run the bypass, charger but disable the inverter (so if we lose shore power it shouldn't switch to battery power, in theory anyway).
We hit the run button and the inverter started working again, AC in, AC Out, 14.5v showing on the voltmeter and most importantly both the bypass, charger and ac out are lit.
Electrics are working again and I presume the batteries are recharging....
Here is how the shore power is connected to the boat: 
 

So one problem down, the next one to resolve: The heating system.

I've taken pictures of the whole system, the nordicstove connects to the pump via pipes, there is a black and white thermostat which has black cables going to the wall and the pump, there are blanking plates on the wall (no sockets/switches), the only switch appears to be on the pump itself which is a dial. Changing this or the thermostat doesn't appear to do anything.

[David Mack]

20 minutes ago, Verboatin said:

 

 

You have a thermostat that goes up to 300 degrees C? 

Edited April 3, 2021 by David Mack

[BEngo]

The pump has probably seized

  It is a common fault in mains CH pumps when not used frequently.  On the end away from the pipes there should be a screw in plug.  Remove this and beneath it will be the end of the pump shaft, usually with a hexagonal socket or screw slot. Use a suitable tool to rotate the shaft till it is free. Replace plug and try again.

 

Failing a plug, close the pump isolation valves and undo the nuts on the pump and remove it.  You should then be able to get at the rotor through the pipe holes.

 

Part of your problem is that the pump appears to be wrongly installed.  It is much better if the shaft is vertical and it should never be below horizontal.  Ic the steps visible are at the front your shaft will normally be below horizontal.  Slacken the nuts and rotate the whole thing so the motor can is above the switch on the wall.  The rotor shaft will then be above the horizontal , just.

I expect you will still find the batteries have lost a lot of capacity.

 

N

[Tracy D'arth]

First pic is of a thermostat with remote sensing phial coming out of the top, where is the end of that capillary going? I suspect it is supposed to turn on the pump when the phial on the end senses that the stove is hot. Measure the resistance across the terminals when the stove is hot, turn the stat down, you should hear a click as it switches on and off. If it is switching and the resistance is zero when on, the power should be going to the pump. Ensure that the mains is not connected by the shore line or the inverter before measuring the resistance of the thermostat.

 

Pump could just be jammed as BEngo said, try measuring the voltage on the wires when the stat is turned down and the stove is hot. You should get 240v AC or so.

 

Sometimes a firm rap with a hammer on the pump body will unjam it.

 

The dial with numbers is pump speed control, when you get it working you can alter this to get enough circulation of water without undue noise.

You will be very lucky if those batteries recover sufficiently to be usable, be careful that they don't break down, get hot and start emitting toxic hydrogen sulphide fumes .

Edited April 3, 2021 by Tracy D'arth

[BEngo]

40 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Pump could just be jammed as BEngo said, try measuring the voltage on the wires when the stat is turned down and the stove is hot. You should get 12v or so.

If you start messing with the wires, be careful.  The rating plate says it is a 200-240 volt pump, so do not expect 12 Volts and make sure you don't  get bitten by the mains. Your inverter is just as capable at killing you as the CEGB on the end of your shoreline.

N

[Tracy D'arth]

1 hour ago, BEngo said:

If you start messing with the wires, be careful.  The rating plate says it is a 200-240 volt pump, so do not expect 12 Volts and make sure you don't  get bitten by the mains. Your inverter is just as capable at killing you as the CEGB on the end of your shoreline.

N

Severe error on my part, I missed the obvious fact that the pump is a mains pump. Do not attempt to measure any voltages unless the OP is competent to work on mains, 240vAC equipment.

 

Mea Culpa.