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Calling London boaters


Ruth B

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1 hour ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

Are you planning on bullying every newbie that comes on here?

 

You certainly seem to be?

 

Bullying or facing the realism of fitting out a shell under less than ideal circumstances?

 

I have been through the heartbreaking cycle of optimism, investment, hard work, disappointment and finally facing up to financial loss.

 

I wouldn't wish for anyone else to go through that cycle with his eyes closed  - would you?

1 hour ago, jtylr said:


Permanent mooring - Nope

 

Mains - Nope. Need to switch my track, mitre saw and router for 18v. 

 

Transport - Cargo bike (Omnium). 

 

Considerate - I’ll find quiet spots to moor, my bicycles make it easy to collect supplies. I’ll work within the usual regs for the trades, checking with neighbours if they would prefer later start or early finish, I’m not in a huge rush. I’ll inside the cabin or on the deck when possible. Perhaps I could even help them out with a few bits of woodwork, lend some tools out, or do a beer/shopping run on my bike.

 

Thanks for your concern.

 

I wish you luck but it sounds like you are setting yourself a huge task.   Good luck. 

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48 minutes ago, jtylr said:

a few solar panels, large battery bank + inverter, and charging my second set of batteries at work. Trying my best to avoid buying an LPG genny.

A large battery bank is no help if you don't have the means to charge it. And I mean fully charge it. Undercharging is the main cause of battery knackering. 

Solar is all but useless for 4 months of the year.

Are you proposing to use solar to charge your main boat batteries, then use the inverter to convert that to 240V ac, then use that to power a charger for your 18V tool batteries, which then do the work? Batteries need an input of about 150% of what you get out, and you are doing this twice. Neither are inverters 100% efficient. So overall you will probably be wasting more energy than you use. I would go as far as to suggest that using mains powered tools direct from the inverter might be quite a lot more efficient.

Edited by David Mack
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4 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

Good luck. 


I converted a century old shell of a 350sqm industrial unit into live/work art studios mostly on my own some years ago, how hard can a 20sqm boat be? ?

 

On a more serious note, I accept that some mistakes will be made. I understand there are specific considerations that need to be made vs. working on land, and I’m currently just doing a lot of reading/research to try and minimise very expensive ones. When I do make one I can learn from it, put it right, and in a few years hopefully be in a position to give a bit of guidance those who find themselves in the position I’m in now.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, David Mack said:


This is what I’m currently looking into - I have seen some (admittedly quite expensive) panels that claim to be considerably better in low and filtered light + likely to go lithium-ion for batts.

 

Problem with corded is the current draw on start up, which means I need an inverter with a huge KW rating to fulfil that single purpose.

 

More research is required here so I won’t derail the thread any further and will post in the appropriate area once I have done more some reading.

 

 

Edited by jtylr
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5 minutes ago, jtylr said:


I converted a century old shell of a 350sqm industrial unit into live/work art studios mostly on my own some years ago, how hard can a 20sqm boat be? ?

 

On a more serious note, I accept that some mistakes will be made. I understand there are specific considerations that need to be made vs. working on land, and I’m currently just doing a lot of reading/research to try and minimise very expensive ones. When I do make one I can learn from it, put it right, and in a few years hopefully be in a position to give a bit of guidance those who find themselves in the position I’m in now.

 

 

 

Have your researches, come across mentions of the Boat Safety Scheme (BSS) requirments, or the Recreational Craft Directive (RCD) requirments?

If not then the "Search" box at the top of the page will take you to the subject.

All the work you do, is governed by these standards, which are not the same as building trade standards.

 

Bod

 

 

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22 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I don't think an uptick can happen, unless it's supposed to be the opposite of a downturn, though I guess that would be a backcross, or maybe a downtock.

Luckily, the property section is one of the many,  many bits of the Sunday Times that everyone throws away without reading so the article won't matter much.

Although, just in the interest of giving slightly positive criticism, why the hell yet another article about London? No-one else in the entire United Kingdom gives a toss about London overcrowding, and we are bored witless with papers that talk about nowhere else. Which is one reason circulation is down, and not upticked. Save it for a London local paper. We don't care.

We used to quite like London, we would go there about once a year and go to Camden market, then have a walk along the Thames, and maybe find a nice ethnic restaurant for some reasonably priced food, then go home again. However Yorkshire is better. Wiltshire is also better, and Cheshire. Cornwall and the West country are sort of better but they have no canals and too many Londoners.

 

................Dave

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6 minutes ago, Bod said:

 

Have your researches, come across mentions of the Boat Safety Scheme (BSS) requirments, or the Recreational Craft Directive (RCD) requirments?

If not then the "Search" box at the top of the page will take you to the subject.

All the work you do, is governed by these standards, which are not the same as building trade standards.

 

Bod

 

 


Hi Bod,

 

I’m going to buy a copy of the BSS regs. Did see a link in another thread but forgot to bookmark it. will dig it out. wasn’t aware of the RCD will look into this thanks.

2 minutes ago, Ex Brummie said:

Plenty of those around London?

 
I’ll drift in and out occasionally, but will be staying in Hertfordshire for a while.

Edited by jtylr
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41 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

 

Bullying or facing the realism of fitting out a shell under less than ideal circumstances?

 

I have been through the heartbreaking cycle of optimism, investment, hard work, disappointment and finally facing up to financial loss.

 

Its to me the manner in the way the (valid) points are raised.

 

Doing it in the manner of some sort of interagation as if the poster is stupid just gets their backs up and so often leads to spats, and a thread disintergrating into a fight. As happened on another thread today.

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1 hour ago, jtylr said:


Hi Bod,

 

I’m going to buy a copy of the BSS regs. Did see a link in another thread but forgot to bookmark it. will dig it out. wasn’t aware of the RCD will look into this thanks.

 
I’ll drift in and out occasionally, but will be staying in Hertfordshire for a while.

BSS regs are relativly mild and mainly aimed at preventing your boat blowing up, or damaging other boats. The Recreational Craft Directive is a different beast altogether, It is aimed at making your boat safe for you and other users, the person who commisions work or does work is responsible in law to ensure it is done to the required standard. All major changes need to be to the required standard. It is the building regulations and electrical/gas standards of the boating world, it potentially has teeth, which can result in a fine or jail for non compliance, but is not well policed, except in the case of serious injury or death.

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I'm wondering how long it is going to take for living on towpaths to be regulated out of existence. 

Maybe it will never happen but I can't help thinking such an amazing bargain can't last. 

 

It will be odd to see what happens with all the boats which have been built specifically because it is possible currently to live in London, including some very "desirable" areas, for under £1000 a year ie CRT licensing cost. 

 

No council tax, no nonsense just good old fashioned cheap living. No wonder so many £100k+ wide beam canal boats have turned up in the last decade !

 

It almost seems to good to be true but it is true. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Detling said:

BSS regs are relativly mild and mainly aimed at preventing your boat blowing up, or damaging other boats. The Recreational Craft Directive is a different beast altogether, It is aimed at making your boat safe for you and other users, the person who commisions work or does work is responsible in law to ensure it is done to the required standard. All major changes need to be to the required standard. It is the building regulations and electrical/gas standards of the boating world, it potentially has teeth, which can result in a fine or jail for non compliance, but is not well policed, except in the case of serious injury or death.

Does the RCD apply if you're fitting your own boat out? I don't think it existed when I did mine, and I've certainly done stuff to the old tub over the past ten years without considering it in the slightest. If you're not commissioning anyone, is it at all relevant?

Most boat stuff is really fairly basic and not exactly rocket science. A narrow boat is a tin box with some lights, a means of cooking and heating, a water supply and some kind of intensely exciting toilet. I assume it's got a thing to make it move. I know mine's quite small, but I did everything bar the gas and I'm as cackhanded as they come.

The worst thing about fitting a boat while living on it is that whichever bit you need to tackle next is always right where you want to live, because everything is interconnected. The smaller the boat, the worse the problem. But it is quite fun.  Just remember the two out of three rule  - quick, cheap,  good. And never,  ever, buy anything from B&Q.

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2 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Does the RCD apply if you're fitting your own boat out? I don't think it existed when I did mine,

 

 

It has existed since 1998.

It is a bit more than you suggest - it includes things like frame spacings, buoyancy, flooding angles, stability, the type of engines you can fit, the type and structure of the electric cables you can use and on it goes, there are 1000's of pages of specifications.

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3 minutes ago, magnetman said:

I'm wondering how long it is going to take for living on towpaths to be regulated out of existence. 

Maybe it will never happen but I can't help thinking such an amazing bargain can't last. 

 

It will be odd to see what happens with all the boats which have been built specifically because it is possible currently to live in London, including some very "desirable" areas, for under £1000 a year ie CRT licensing cost. 

 

No council tax, no nonsense just good old fashioned cheap living. No wonder so many £100k+ wide beam canal boats have turned up in the last decade !

 

It almost seems to good to be true but it is true. 

CRT could just designate most of the towpath in desirable places as chargeable moorings, like they do at Llangollen. Or do what they should have done in the first place, which is incorporate EOG mooring fees into the licence. CCers still get a bit of benefit as they don't have to pay the other 50% which we all pay to the mooring owner. Admin goes down as there's just the license to pay, no permit.

It was always my opinion that mooring permits were just a sneaky way to raise money from boaters, while pretending they weren't increasing license fees, like a government bragging about not increasing income tax rates while whacking up NIC.

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

It has existed since 1998.

It is a bit more than you suggest - it includes things like frame spacings, buoyancy, flooding angles, stability, the type of engines you can fit, the type and structure of the electric cables you can use and on it goes, there are 1000's of pages of specifications.

Yes, but does it matter if you're fitting out your own, not commercially? My fitout predates that, luckily! The bloke next door to me is refitting his cruiser. Pretty sure he's never heard of it.

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12 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Yes, but does it matter if you're fitting out your own, not commercially? My fitout predates that, luckily! The bloke next door to me is refitting his cruiser. Pretty sure he's never heard of it.

 

It only matters in two instances (if the boat is post 1998)

 

1) If you try to sell it within 5 years.

2) At any time in the future someone is killed or injured due to your failure to do something correctly - you are then criminally responsible.

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3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

It only matters in two instances (if the boat is post 1998)

 

1) If you try to sell it within 5 years.

2) At any time in the future someone is killed or injured due to your failure to do something correctly - you are then criminally responsible.

But you're not building a boat, it's an old one and you're just refitting it inside.  I can't see that 2 is terribly likely to happen on a narrowboat, again, impossible to prove who's done what.

I have a vague memory that a refernce to the RCD is fixed permanently to the metal somewhere? If so, surely only applicable to a build, not a refit?

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6 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

But you're not building a boat, it's an old one and you're just refitting it inside.  I can't see that 2 is terribly likely to happen on a narrowboat, again, impossible to prove who's done what.

I have a vague memory that a refernce to the RCD is fixed permanently to the metal somewhere? If so, surely only applicable to a build, not a refit?

 

Since 2017 'major' refits are included.and, if the boat was previously built to the RCD it must now have a PCA (Post Construction Assessment) by an RCD approved surveyor before it can be used or sold.

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3 hours ago, jtylr said:


Hi Bod,

 

I’m going to buy a copy of the BSS regs. Did see a link in another thread but forgot to bookmark it. will dig it out. wasn’t aware of the RCD will look into this thanks.

 
I’ll drift in and out occasionally, but will be staying in Hertfordshire for a while.

Sorry but Hertfordshire is pretty full up as well.

As someone who's fitted out a 55' nb from scratch your idea of fitting out 35' boat whilst off grid with no permanent mooring, in or around London, using 18v tools is pure fantasy. I could say so much more but won't.

 

 

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To the OP, I'd be interested if in your article you question CRT on if they feel they are picking up the pieces of high London house values and unaffordability which is causing static floating communities to spring up, straining local services (water/waste/mooring etc)?

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11 hours ago, jtylr said:


I converted a century old shell of a 350sqm industrial unit into live/work art studios mostly on my own some years ago, how hard can a 20sqm boat be? ?

 

On a more serious note, I accept that some mistakes will be made. I understand there are specific considerations that need to be made vs. working on land, and I’m currently just doing a lot of reading/research to try and minimise very expensive ones. When I do make one I can learn from it, put it right, and in a few years hopefully be in a position to give a bit of guidance those who find themselves in the position I’m in now.

 

 

 

your response suggests that you haven't fully considered the impracticalities of what you plan to do in respect of the specific queries I raised, to which I believe your responses may be wishful thinking.  It is not about your craft skills fitting out a building, it's about logistics and infrastructure that simply does not exist on the water unless you get a serviced permanent mooring.

- Carrying 8x4s on a bike trailer?  When I fitted out my boat I arranged for the shell builder to put 20 sheets of 8x4 in the boat for that very reason - even though I fitted out the boat in a boatyard and had vehicle access to the boat.  I still ended up buying a lot more plywood.  Chances are that most of the time you won't be near a vehicle access where you can get materials delivered.

- Electrickery from a few solar panels?   You'll need lots of them even during an average summer.  As others have suggested, you'll get next to nothing for much of the year.

 

Anyway - good luck.

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

Carrying 8x4s on a bike trailer?  


Not a trailer... I won’t be moving 20 sheets at a time, but bike is rated to 70kg although becomes a bit of a pig to ride once you get up to 50kg. 

 

Have a mate with a workshop who can take deliveries and where I can cut into boat-friendly sizes too.

 

Power situation does need more consideration though.

A248881E-869C-41AE-8365-624072CB57C2.jpeg

5106E53D-E43A-4D23-84E7-BF1589EB601F.jpeg

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14 hours ago, jtylr said:


Hi Bod,

 

I’m going to buy a copy of the BSS regs. Did see a link in another thread but forgot to bookmark it. will dig it out. wasn’t aware of the RCD will look into this thanks.

 
I’ll drift in and out occasionally, but will be staying in Hertfordshire for a while.

The BSS requirements are on line and free at  https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/media/268789/ecp-private-boats-ed3_rev2_apr2015_public_final.pdf

20 minutes ago, jtylr said:


Not a trailer... I won’t be moving 20 sheets at a time, but bike is rated to 70kg although becomes a bit of a pig to ride once you get up to 50kg. 

 

Have a mate with a workshop who can take deliveries and where I can cut into boat-friendly sizes too.

 

Power situation does need more consideration though.

A248881E-869C-41AE-8365-624072CB57C2.jpeg

 

Reminds me of my apprentice days carrying bundles of 3/4" steel conduit on my shoulder through Gt Yarmouth

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3 minutes ago, eid said:

 

No need to wonder when you can look it up in an English dictionary.

 

Commonly used by 'blue-sky thinkers' when taking the 'helicopter view' of the situation.

 

I well remember my Marketing Director coming out with the Helicopter view statement - suggesting that he could get a better view of the way forward whilst we were all trudging thru the snow, I suggested that it was his helicopter that had caused the avalanche that we were wading thru, he never used it again.

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