Leaking pipe and damp floorboards, who might be able to fix it?

[Thomas C King]

This might seem obvious to some, but who would be able to find and fix a leaking pipe on our boat?

 

We believe we have a leak, because the water pump (less than a year old) keeps cycling, there is a lot of fresh water building up in the stern, and floorboards under the bed and in the bathroom are wet. The pipes above the aboards don't seem to have any obvious leaks, so I'm unsure of where the leak might be.

 

It seems a bit impossible to fix to me, so would this be something to take to a marina, or get a regular plumber in, and does anyone have recommendations in the Oxfordshire area? (or Reading for when the Thames' Culham lock is open again). We are assuming we'd have to find somewhere to stay whilst the work is done.

[mrsmelly]

Its invariably at a joint so look where the water is teed off to somewhere such as shower taps or kitchen sink etc etc etc. Its usualy a case of elimination bit by bit. Do get it done though as eventualy it will rot and cause damp. If you pass up this way pull in and I will look for free, I can dig out tel number for a couple of good blokes meanwhile if you dont get it sorted.

[David Mack]

9 minutes ago, Thomas C King said:

The pipes above the aboards don't seem to have any obvious leaks

Do you have hidden pipes then? You should check these for leaks. If they are inaccessible then your plumber won't be able to check them either.

Are you sure it's a fresh water leak? Could it be the shower waste?

Othe possibilities are leaking windows (with the water running down behind the lining) or condensation.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

As the others have said, most likely a water pipe joint, with rainwater a distant second.

A third possibility. - Is there a calorifier and is it towards the front of where the damp patches are? If so, worth checking if the pressure relief valve is leaking and where the leaking water goes. This can range from overboard through a skin fitting (great!), to inside the boat, possibly via a catch tank that doesn't get emptied (not so great). The worse possibility is a leak in the cauliflower itself, which can be hard to find as the insulation masks the source (worst, most expensive).

If there is no cauliflower, or if it is in the stern, outside the cabin, then ignore this post.

Edited March 27, 2021 by Jen-in-Wellies

[Laurie Booth]

9 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Do you have hidden pipes then? You should check these for leaks. If they are inaccessible then your plumber won't be able to check them either.

Are you sure it's a fresh water leak? Could it be the shower waste?

Othe possibilities are leaking windows (with the water running down behind the lining) or condensation.

The OP says the water pump keeps working, which must mean a leaking tap/pipe. Not shower waste or leaking windows.

 

[David Mack]

6 minutes ago, Laurie Booth I.S.M. said:

The OP says the water pump keeps working, which must mean a leaking tap/pipe. Not shower waste or leaking windows.

 

Not necessarily. Pump cycling could be caused by leaky valves in the pump leaking water back to the water tank.

But I agree leaky pipe joints are more likely.

And it makes more sense to me for the OP to check every single joint for leaks (wrap in toilet paper hold the paper there for a few moments, unwrap the paper and see if there is a damp mark) first, and only then maybe get a plumber in to fix, if this is beyond the OP's diy capability.

Edited March 27, 2021 by David Mack

[Alan de Enfield]

30 minutes ago, Thomas C King said:

We believe we have a leak, because the water pump (less than a year old) keeps cycling, there is a lot of fresh water building up in the stern, and floorboards under the bed and in the bathroom are wet. The pipes above the aboards don't seem to have any obvious leaks, so I'm unsure of where the leak might be.

 

Are you saying that you have water pipes that run under the floor boards ?

 

That would be most unusual - who built / fitted out the boat ?

[Thomas C King]

Hi, thanks, so it's a case of diagnosing the problem first? That's the bit that I didn't want to do because it involves lifting up floorboards. I don't have much time with work at the moment, but I can give it a go today.

 

On the pump/cycling thing, the weird thing is that I think the bits that I can't access and haven't checked are before the pump and not after. So the cycling could be a red herring, and the whole thing might have nothing to do with pipes in general.

7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Are you saying that you have water pipes that run under the floor boards ?

 

That would be most unusual - who built / fitted out the boat ?

 

That's my assumption, but they might be in another hard-to-reach area. This gives me hope though. The builder is was "Stoke on Trent" according to the surveyor and pamphlets left in the boat etc.

Edited March 27, 2021 by Thomas C King

[Tony Brooks]

I suppose it depends upon where the bedroom and bathroom are located. If at the stern then its possible the bilge is filling up to the floorboards. Even if the calorifier is not near the damp patch I would definitely be looking at the PRV. Even if its piped overboard a higher than PRV skin fitting or a skin fitting blocked with mud could allow water to leak out of the PRV spindle. Definitely worth considering the possibility of a window leak accepting the cycling tends to go against that.

 

FWIW My boat (Cole raft-Rugby Boat Fitters) had a water hose under the floorboards. One of the clear ones with diamond reinforcing. I suppose that was better than rigid pipes with hidden fittings.

 

If its not solved by the time you get to Reading and if you are happy to moor above Fobney lock (car parking) I will happily have a look, covid  restrictions allowing.

[Thomas C King]

10 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I suppose it depends upon where the bedroom and bathroom are located. If at the stern then its possible the bilge is filling up to the floorboards.

 

Oh, yes, that's possible. The bedroom is at the stern and bathroom is in the middle. The cabin bilge probably has some water pooling that hasn't been pumped out for a while, and the engine bilge also has water (before the propeller shaft and in a separate compartment). I can't actually see how water might have gotten from the cabin bilge into the engine bilge, but I'm assuming there is one source for all this water, and it's draining all the way back to the engine.

 

I'll pump out the cabin bilge and see if things dry out to try and narrow down possible locations.

Edited March 27, 2021 by Thomas C King

[BWM]

A leak may not be obvious so touching the area around fittings and behind pipes may help you find it, and the floor may be damp due to the water being held back at that point.

[Alan de Enfield]

 

 

It helps to identify slightly leaky joints if you wrap a 'bandage' of kitchen roll (or toilet paper) around each joint that you can access, the one that is damp 24 hours later is the one to investigate further.

[canals are us?]

Do you have a calorifier, hot water cylinder under bed etc? If so is the pressure relief red valve thing piped out to a skin fitting? When I bought my boat there was a bucket to catch the dribbling water when heated.

 

James.

[bizzard]

Anyway, always switch the water pump off before leaving the boat unattended or you might return to find it flooded out.

[Tony Brooks]

51 minutes ago, Thomas C King said:

 

Oh, yes, that's possible. The bedroom is at the stern and bathroom is in the middle. The cabin bilge probably has some water pooling that hasn't been pumped out for a while, and the engine bilge also has water (before the propeller shaft and in a separate compartment). I can't actually see how water might have gotten from the cabin bilge into the engine bilge, but I'm assuming there is one source for all this water, and it's draining all the way back to the engine.

 

I'll pump out the cabin bilge and see if things dry out to try and narrow down possible locations.

 

Unless its an old boat then its most likely that the engine and cabin bilge are separate and sealed, that is not 100% certain. If I am correct then there will be two sources of water.

 

We need to know much more about the boat. Cruiser, semi-trad or trad?  Front cockpit (well deck) self draining or floor below the water line. If the latter does it have its own bilge pump. Does it have a shower pump and if so what type, a sump box with "bilge pump" inside or a proper positive displacement pump like a Gulper or Water Puppy.

[Thomas C King]

2 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Unless its an old boat then its most likely that the engine and cabin bilge are separate and sealed, that is not 100% certain. If I am correct then there will be two sources of water.

 

We need to know much more about the boat. Cruiser, semi-trad or trad?  Front cockpit (well deck) self draining or floor below the water line. If the latter does it have its own bilge pump. Does it have a shower pump and if so what type, a sump box with "bilge pump" inside or a proper positive displacement pump like a Gulper or Water Puppy.

 

The boat was built in 1990. It's a trad, and the well deck is self-draining. No shower pump, the previous one broke and I've not had time to replace it (we bail the water out). The engine bilge, incidentally, has wet walls above where the water is so I'm wondering if the water there is actually condensation (there is no water under the part with the engine), but that would be a lot of condensation.

[Tony Brooks]

10 minutes ago, Thomas C King said:

 

The boat was built in 1990. It's a trad, and the well deck is self-draining. No shower pump, the previous one broke and I've not had time to replace it (we bail the water out). The engine bilge, incidentally, has wet walls above where the water is so I'm wondering if the water there is actually condensation (there is no water under the part with the engine), but that would be a lot of condensation.

 

 

1990 would suggest its probably a two bilge boat if a cruiser but being a trad the engine may be in the accommodation. If by walls you mean hull sides then it may well be condensation,  especially if it has access for the cabin air. Often the area either side of the engine beds are connected to the triangular bit under the bilge (unless you have a mid engine room) so water in those areas could be from the stern gland or you may be overfilling the engine coolant level causing it to  overflow when heated.

 

Is the bilge pump still in place and connected by hoses? If so  could the pump have started leaking from the body or hose connections. If you have taken the pump out is the hose to the skin ftting just hanging in the bilge? If so it might be  rain collecting in the skin fitting and then running into the bilge.

 

Still the pump cycling suggest a domestic water leak so find and check that PRV unless you have an instant gas water heater.

[Thomas C King]

1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

 

1990 would suggest its probably a two bilge boat if a cruiser but being a trad the engine may be in the accommodation. If by walls you mean hull sides then it may well be condensation,  especially if it has access for the cabin air. Often the area either side of the engine beds are connected to the triangular bit under the bilge (unless you have a mid engine room) so water in those areas could be from the stern gland or you may be overfilling the engine coolant level causing it to  overflow when heated.

 

Is the bilge pump still in place and connected by hoses? If so  could the pump have started leaking from the body or hose connections. If you have taken the pump out is the hose to the skin ftting just hanging in the bilge? If so it might be  rain collecting in the skin fitting and then running into the bilge.

 

Still the pump cycling suggest a domestic water leak so find and check that PRV unless you have an instant gas water heater.

 

Thanks those are good suggestions. Yes the bilge pump hasn't been touched,  its pipes also don't really go above the bit where water pools so not sure it's that. The engine bit looks a bit like this shoddy diagram. But I think the bigger issue is probably the domestic water and the engine compartment might just be condensation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

That looks as if it water sitting on the uxter plate  (swim plate) and its probably far enough back to have dripped down off the underside of the little stern deck so condensation.

 

I was an idiot I wrote bilge pump but meant shower pump.

 

I fear it will be a hands and knees job, possibly removing the bed boards to get a really good look at the plumbing. If the calorifier is where you have drawn it then it's unlikely to be a calorifier leak but I reserve any comment about the PRV until I am sure where it is mounted and how its plumbed.

[Thomas C King]

35 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

That looks as if it water sitting on the uxter plate  (swim plate) and its probably far enough back to have dripped down off the underside of the little stern deck so condensation.

 

I was an idiot I wrote bilge pump but meant shower pump.

 

I fear it will be a hands and knees job, possibly removing the bed boards to get a really good look at the plumbing. If the calorifier is where you have drawn it then it's unlikely to be a calorifier leak but I reserve any comment about the PRV until I am sure where it is mounted and how its plumbed.

 

Thanks. Yes, the shower pump isn't installed at all, (and there's a pan under the pipe where it used to be, which doesn't fill up with water anyway).

 

I think it's a pipe under the bed board then, I hadn't realised that a leak could be too slow to notice. That, or the bath isn't sealed properly. We'll wrap towels today.

[blackrose]

5 hours ago, David Mack said:

Not necessarily. Pump cycling could be caused by leaky valves in the pump leaking water back to the water tank.

But I agree leaky pipe joints are more likely.

 

 

If the pump itself is leaking wouldn't it cycle?

[Tony Brooks]

Yes, but so would all sorts of other things. Until the OP either gets down and dirty investigation so he can give us things like pump location etc. it's difficult to be too specific. At present I tend to favour a leak out of the system but who knows.

[Thomas C King]

50 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

If the pump itself is leaking wouldn't it cycle?

 

The pump does have a bit of moisture around the filter, but it's nothing compared to how much water comes out of a tap before it cycles. I'd expect the floor around the bottom half of the bed, where the pump sits, to be soaked.

[Tony Brooks]

5 minutes ago, Thomas C King said:

 

The pump does have a bit of moisture around the filter, but it's nothing compared to how much water comes out of a tap before it cycles. I'd expect the floor around the bottom half of the bed, where the pump sits, to be soaked.

 

Now we seem to have it. A leak. Remember a little drip running 24/7 ends up as a lot of water. You need to be sure it is around the filter and not from the joint in the pump head body. That's where they usually leak after being frozen or some such.

 

You may well have an accumulator storing water and that will keep the system pressure up but gradually dropping until it's just about empty, then the pump cuts in so the pump is filling the accumulator and supplying the tank. That would take far longer than just pressurising the pipes with no accumulator.

 

 

[dmr]

If you have any bare steel (like right at the back) then a surprising amount of condensation can be produced in the winter. We are just coming to the end of the condensation season so unless you are doing anything really bad everything should dry out. Dry out as much as you can and then see how it goes, if its condensation it should not re-appear.

The pulsing water pump does indicate a fresh water issue but its not conclusive....how often does the pump kick in and how long does it run for each time?

 

............Dave

9 minutes ago, Thomas C King said:

 

The pump does have a bit of moisture around the filter, but it's nothing compared to how much water comes out of a tap before it cycles. I'd expect the floor around the bottom half of the bed, where the pump sits, to be soaked.

 

The pump can leak externally, but can also have an internal leak that lets the pressure go to cause the pump to cycle. Also the pump is a potential source of condensation. If at all possible put a little drip tray of some sort under the pump and inspect it once a month.

 

..............Dave