Through a coach window

[Heartland]

This view is taken looking though a railway coach doorway in the days there were coaching stock and corridors. It seems to be 1940's, and on the Southern Railway. That company had a carriage works at Lancing, but the view seems to show a wide canal or river.

 

Any ideas ?

 

 

[OldGoat]

The river Adur meanders its way along the gap in the downs after Shoreham port - the photo could be there. I'm not sure exactly where the photo was taken.

[Derek R.]

That looks like a contrived photo - it's too perfect. The doorway - there's something wrong there. The sliding door section doesn't appear to be there. The handles aren't attached to anything that resembles a moving section. I'm thinking film set piece with a waterway backdrop.

 

ETA There seems to be a lot of light in the corridor section too, which might indicate film set.

Edited March 24, 2021 by Derek R.

[junior]

22 hours ago, OldGoat said:

The river Adur meanders its way along the gap in the downs after Shoreham port - the photo could be there. I'm not sure exactly where the photo was taken.

Pretty sure it's not there. The photo looks to have trees lining the bank on the right. Both sides of the line where it crosses the adur in Shoreham are very open. Intact if it was looking north you would see another railway line to the righr running along the bank and if it were looking to the south you'd see the airport!

[Athy]

21 hours ago, Derek R. said:

That looks like a contrived photo - it's too perfect. The doorway - there's something wrong there. The sliding door section doesn't appear to be there. The handles aren't attached to anything that resembles a moving section. I'm thinking film set piece with a waterway backdrop.

 

ETA There seems to be a lot of light in the corridor section too, which might indicate film set.

Interesting detective work.

[Heartland]

That is of interest Derek, this was one of three images with the backdrop and it is likely there was darkroom manipulation to show different aspects of the coach compartment design. The angle of the design does not seen right, hence a reason for posting and if it was taken during the war years there would have been some restriction where photographers could work. If it was taken on a bridge for example, the water would not be seen. But how the image of the waterway was superimposed with the carriage window would need further investigation, I suppose

 

There was a time with plate negatives, particularly of railway subjects, that the background could be painted out.  I recall that Andrew Barclay had some plate glass negatives treated in that way for reproducing images of their locomotives in catalogues.

 

   

[Heartland]

When the 3 images are compared it is to show different styles of seat covers

[NB Alnwick]

I cannot be completely sure about Southern Railway practice but I know for certain that the official photographers of the LMS and GWR had screens that were applied to show a pretty picture through the coach window(s) - the photograph on the screen could have been anywhere . . .

[Derek R.]

That's a different compartment. Apart from the upholstery being of a different pattern, notice the end of the compartment has upholstered pads fixed to the end bulkhead, whereas in the first image, there is none. How many railway corridor carriages have that much disparity in construction?

 

The other thing that strikes me as curious, is the double sliding doors. In the corridor with compartment coaches I have travelled on in the past, the door has been a single sliding item with the end bulkheads fixed. With two sliding doors as shown, the sliding section when opened might foul the opened door of the adjacent compartment - though they may have just opened far enough to the arm-rests end, in which case it would be physically possible to butt against stops to prevent fouling.

 

Another query: The doors look insubstantial in construction to those I have personally experienced (albeit a long time ago). These look quite lightweight (though it is a bit difficult to gauge the wood thickness from a photo!) Without the supportive strength of the end frames of the bulkhead as in single sliding doors and compartments, this set-up looks more like a mock-up for publicity purposes, with any attractive backdrop as an addition.

 

If the differences were to display those of 'Class' - where are the antimacassars as would be expected in First? I might be completely wrong of course.

[Ronaldo47]

LMS coaches of the 1930's had double sliding doors that met in the middle. Representations of them were provided in Hornby Dublo corridor coaches of the 1950's.  

Edited March 25, 2021 by Ronaldo47

[NB Alnwick]

On 25/03/2021 at 17:39, Ronaldo47 said:

LMS coaches of the 1930's had double sliding doors that met in the middle. Representations of them were provided in Hornby Dublo corridor coaches of the 1950's.  

Most pre-nationalisation coach designs with side corridors featured double sliding doors to the compartments. Many had a pair of ashtrays (or similar protrusions) fitted near the centre line and it was known that amorous couples developed a trick of using a home-made inverted 'U' clip to hold the doors together so that they would not be disturbed. Coaches had 'blackout blinds' fitted to compartment windows including the windows on the corridor side of the compartment. In more trusting times the ticket inspector would always knock and expect the gentleman to pass the tickets under the doors for checking but this practice ceased during the second world war because tricksters found it was a way to gain free tickets . . .

The coaches in the photographs both have double sliding doors with 'blackout blinds'. In the first picture the doors are in the open position and in the second that are closed.

[NB Alnwick]

Although not obvious in the first photograph, the armrests form part of the seat and the doors slide behind them . . .

[Heartland]

Whilst there are different carriage view the waterway behind does change perspective, which again raises the question of is this a backdrop or an actual waterway ?.

 

 

[jake_crew]

Was it in the IWA photo competition ?

[Ray T]

2 hours ago, Heartland said:

Whilst there are different carriage view the waterway behind does change perspective, which again raises the question of is this a backdrop or an actual waterway ?.

 

 

To me looking at the photo the track would only be about a foot or so above the waterway and bank.

If there were a bridge there nothing would get beneath it, with the exception of the water.

[Derek R.]

The two compartments 'may' be next to one another, as the stronger light from above in the corridor is on the left in the first shot and on the right in the second.

But I'm not sure I would agree with Ray about the point of the camera height. There is a lot of towpath and water seen. If that was just a bare foot above the water the perspective would be much different. But neither does it look as though it was taken from a bridge, it's a bit on the low side (done a lot of canal boating).

 

Something else that isn't quite right: The line of the horizon of the water in the distance is at odds with the horizontal window protecting bar. It's as though the carriage is going steeply uphill to the left. I still think it's a staged studio shot.

 

Perhaps the carriage has a flat tyre at the right hand end.

[mark99]

I defer to the expertise in here but as a mere observer, the carriage looks too well detailed to be a 'mock up' .

 

The external scene, no idea.

 

 

[Wanderer Vagabond]

1 hour ago, Ray T said:

To me looking at the photo the track would only be about a foot or so above the waterway and bank.

If there were a bridge there nothing would get beneath it, with the exception of the water.

That was my thinking too, I can't think of many railway bridges with almost no headroom for the river/canal below it. By the width of it and the apparent water disturbance I'd say it is a river that we are looking at and since they can have this annoying habit of going into flood it wouldn't have to rise much to be pressing against the railway line itself. I'd go with the opinion that it is a contrived photo.

[noddyboater]

1 hour ago, Ray T said:

To me looking at the photo the track would only be about a foot or so above the waterway and bank.

If there were a bridge there nothing would get beneath it, with the exception of the water.

Like the one between Thorne and Keadby you mean? 

[NB Alnwick]

When the photograph was taken, the 'scene' behind the windows was simply a canvas sheet on a wooden frame that was held up by the photographer's assistants to hide the rest of the workshop or possibly a brick wall. The picturesque scenery was added later in the photographers studio where artists were employed to touch-up and enhance the photograph - this often included piecing together multiple images and re-photographing them in the studio. This may seem overly laborious today but in those unhurried days of relatively low wages it was common practice at most major carriage works. Reference to the historical works of J. H. Russell and similar authors who took the time to delve through the notes and thousands of images created by these official photographers reveal the extent of their painstaking methods to create accurate but generally attractive images.

[Higgs]

I'm pretty sure the same backdrop scene is used in all three photos. The carriage scenes moved in placement. The water surface can be compared, or various parts of the tree lines. 

[Heartland]

These were all images taken some time ago, and as stated believed to be Southern Railway. They are not "In an IWA photo competition" . There are other carriage images that show mountain scenes (perhaps Scotland) so the suggestion of a poster background may be the answer. 

 

The originals are with the RCHS, but the reason for the post has been to work out the background behind the images and the opinions of this forum are greatly appreciated. They belong to a large collection of railway images collected by the late Geoffrey Spence. 

[Higgs]

I would lean toward the photos being mock-ups, with the scenery of some generic scene. The scenery light is real, the carriage lighting isn't. 

 

 

Edited April 2, 2021 by Higgs

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, Heartland said:

 They are not "In an IWA photo competition" .

 

 

Nobody is suggesting they are - its just a reference to a badly photoshopped image which was, as discussed in this thread.

 

 

 

 

 

[Murflynn]

AAAAAGH  !!!       ?    ?    ?

 

 

 

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