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Thames - Water Points. Changes to drinking and bulk water supply points.


Paringa

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I just had a call from someone at the Environment Agency in response to an email I sent querying all this. He was very helpful. 
 

While the regulations have been in place for donkey’s years, the thing that changed very recently was the categorisation of the water in the Thames. How careful you need to be depends on how ‘bad’ the water that could backflow is, from 1 (perfectly fine) to 5 (as bad as it gets, chemical waste etc).  The Thames has always been at 3, but after recent monitoring, probably coinciding with the sewage outflow incidents, it has been changed to 5. 
 

Non-return valves are already installed in the pipework to taps, but these don’t meet the requirements for cat 5 water. At short notice the EA only really had 2 options - to add the current devices or remove the taps all together. 
 

For me the most important thing (and the reason I emailed) is that EA know that this is a bad solution for boaters - and they really do seem to get this. They know that adding more taps where possible would help to an extent, and are looking at where they can do this. The only other real option to date was a break tank, but this requires an installation more like a pump-out station - electrics, new small building, parts going wrong etc. 
 

However... EA heard just yesterday that Arrow Valves (makers of the currently used valves) have just brought something new to market, funnily enough aimed at bulk filling and Cat5 water risk. It’s called an SPFC5 standpipe if you google it. It’s basically a stop-valve, then a pipe going 2 meters up, discharging through a float valve into a small tank, and dropping down again to the tap you put your hose on. As far as I can imagine this would be fine, as long as the hose you use is short / wide enough to drain the tank fast enough that the float valve doesn’t slow the filling. With the right hose I reckon this could fill tanks at the old rates. But the pressure is obviously very low, so a longish 1/2” hose would be slow. 
 

EA have only just laid eyes on this but I think they will trial it when / where they can. It will take a bit of installation and money but far less than a break tank, and little to go wrong. 
 

So I’m hopeful these might start popping up, but I’m guessing not in time for this Summer. Looks like the kids will get their way and go the whole holiday without washing this year! 

Edited by Thames Bhaji
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21 minutes ago, Thames Bhaji said:

However... EA heard just yesterday that Arrow Valves (makers of the currently used valves) have just brought something new to market, funnily enough aimed at bulk filling and Cat5 water risk. It’s called an SPFC5 standpipe if you google it. It’s basically a stop-valve, then a pipe going 2 meters up, discharging through a float valve into a small tank, and dropping down again to the tap you put your hose on. As far as I can imagine this would be fine, as long as the hose you use is short / wide enough to drain the tank fast enough that the float valve doesn’t slow the filling. With the right hose I reckon this could fill tanks at the old rates. But the pressure is obviously very low, so a longish 1/2” hose would be slow. 

 

 

Strange coincidence that (could be feeding you a load of BS).

 

That option has been in the regs for many, many years.

 

 

 

Screenshot (339).png

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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32 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

That option has been in the regs for many, many years


Interesting, I hadn’t seen that. An issue with any tank like that is legionella, or I guess any other issue with water potentially sitting unused for a period of time. The thing from arrow valves has the tap on the supply to the tank, and the small tank drains empty between each use.  Which is very obvious when you think about it, but I guess unless someone makes a ready-to-install unit then someone like EA would have to design and build their own solution. And the need for it at all has only just arisen. 
 

32 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Strange coincidence that (could be feeding you a load of BS).


I didn’t get the impression he was. Perhaps I’m hopelessly naive. 

Edited by Thames Bhaji
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27 minutes ago, Thames Bhaji said:


Interesting, I hadn’t seen that. An issue with any tank like that is legionella, or I guess any other issue with water potentially sitting unused for a period of time. The thing from arrow valves has the tap on the supply to the tank, and the small tank drains empty between each use.  Which is very obvious when you think about it, but I guess unless someone makes a ready-to-install unit then someone like EA would have to design and build their own solution. And the need for it all has only just arisen. 
 


I didn’t get the impression he was. Perhaps I’m hopelessly naive. 

 

The requirement for the tank are listed in the document - primarily it should be sized that there is a fast turnover of water and it is not 'sat' for long periods. (ie considerably less than a boat tank size)

 

Obviously illustration 1(b)  (in my previous post) is gravity fed and requires no electicity, pumps etc. Simply a tank on a stand with a ball cock and a suitable airspace between inlet and the water level when cut off by the ballcock.

 

6.2 Requirements for a storage cistern

 

The cistern, whether fixed or mobile, must be of a suitable size to encourage good turnover of stored water and the inlets and outlets must be designed and located to minimise stagnation.

 

The cistern must be protected against the ingress of environmental contaminants. Every cistern storing water for wholesome purposes must be designed manufactured and installed to ensure:

● all materials in contact with the stored water are suitable and do not cause deterioration of water quality; non-metallic materials must comply with British Standard BS 6920

● a suitable air gap to provide fluid category five backflow protection. If using a type AB air gap, there must be a slot type weir conforming to the requirements for a type AB air gap, sized to suit the maximum inflow and screened to prevent ingress of insects or other contaminants.

(A spreadsheet to assist in designing a type AB air gap is given on the WRAS website).

● a screened warning pipe (or no less effective warning device)

● a securely fitted lid and/or access cover to enable internal inspection and cleaning of the cistern;

● thermal insulation to minimise freezing or undue warming;

● a booster pump, where the gravity-fed water pressure is insufficient to supply the required flow. If the pump is capable of drawing more than 12 litres/min, the pump must not be installed without the water supplier’s written consent, which should be sought by means of prior notification.

 

Marina owners have the responsibility to see that regular cistern maintenance is undertaken to ensure the water quality is wholesome

 

 

Edit to add :

When building the static caravan (holiday homes) site our water supply was just a 1" alkathene with a low pressure, which was not suitable should several van users have a shower etc etc all at the same time. We investigated if we could install a pump on the incoming water pipe, but was told that was illegal as we could 'empty the water companies 1" supply pipe" and all sorts of nasties could get into the pipe.

We eventually had to install a 10,000 litre tank which is fed by the one 1" supply, and is then pumped around the caravan site (pump between the tank and the caravans)

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The requirement for the tank are listed in the document - primarily it should be sized that there is a fast turnover of water and it is not 'sat' for long periods. (ie considerably less than a boat tank size)

 


Sure - my point is just that even if a solution was obvious and known, there’s a limit to how quickly it can be implemented if the need suddenly arises. And if a supplier offers something off the shelf, it’s likely to be quicker than building something from scratch. 

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2 minutes ago, Thames Bhaji said:


Sure - my point is just that even if a solution was obvious and known, there’s a limit to how quickly it can be implemented if the need suddenly arises. And if a supplier offers something off the shelf, it’s likely to be quicker than building something from scratch. 

 

I was more picking up on your point that the EA had only just been made aware ............................

 

 

45 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

EA heard just yesterday that Arrow Valves (makers of the currently used valves) have just brought something new to market, funnily enough aimed at bulk filling and Cat5 water risk. It’s called an SPFC5 standpipe if you google it. It’s basically a stop-valve, then a pipe going 2 meters up, discharging through a float valve into a small tank, and dropping down again to the tap you put your hose on.

 

 

Anyone in the business would have known what was needed the day that their waters were classified as Cat5, I am not suggesting they should have had tanks in stock, but they should have known they were available from a number of suppliers before they "heard just yesterday that Arrow Valves (makers of the currently used valves) have just brought something new to market", 

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Who runs the Thames navigation?  Who has responsibility for stopping pollution?  Seems the left and right hand are not talking to each other or there is a policy to take the easy option rather than make the polluters pay so its no longer profitable to pollute rather than invest.

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31 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I was more picking up on your point that the EA had only just been made aware .................


Sorry I should have been clearer - EA told me that they were contacted by Arrow Valves directly with a new product, rather than hearing about a product that had been around for a while. Whether anything equivalent had been already available somewhere else I don’t know. 

8 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Who runs the Thames navigation?  Who has responsibility for stopping pollution?  Seems the left and right hand are not talking to each other or there is a policy to take the easy option rather than make the polluters pay so its no longer profitable to pollute rather than invest.


Absolutely agree

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5 hours ago, Thames Bhaji said:


 

However... EA heard just yesterday that Arrow Valves (makers of the currently used valves) have just brought something new to market, funnily enough aimed at bulk filling and Cat5 water risk. It’s called an SPFC5 standpipe if you google it. It’s basically a stop-valve, then a pipe going 2 meters up, discharging through a float valve into a small tank, and dropping down again to the tap you put your hose on. As far as I can imagine this would be fine, as long as the hose you use is short / wide enough to drain the tank fast enough that the float valve doesn’t slow the filling. With the right hose I reckon this could fill tanks at the old rates. But the pressure is obviously very low, so a longish 1/2” hose would be slow. 
 


 

 

Had a look at the data sheet, and the best outflow at the tap is about 15 litres per min but at a very low pressure of 0.15bar.  A small bore hose will be slow.  If your fill point is more than 700mm above ground level you are going  be in trouble……..

 

added - spec sheet for those that like data.

spfc5datasheet.pdf#:~:text=not%20present

Edited by Chewbacka
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  • 2 months later...

Any of you heading to Shiplake lock for water will find the tap has been "vandalised" by the removal of the valve.

 

I didn't have a fitting to attach so couldn't get water.

 

Trying to report it to the EA is very hard. Andy (lockie) reported it on the 29th for repair.

 

I will now have to carry various fittings to go on waterpoints that may or may not be working.

 

Only a matter of time before this happened.

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EA need to wake up to the fact that they've made a huge mistake by fitting these inappropriate devices, they were simply not designed for this purpose.

The manufacturer clearly states in it's brochure that 

''DC Pipe Interrupters are intended for open outlet applications (e.g. urinal flushing) and must not be used for washing machines, upstream of hose union taps or any appliance that has a control valve or restriction. Negligible restriction should exist downstream - otherwise water would ultimately discharge through the vent holes.''

 

The device only has a 2 mm outlet hole! It is intended for continuous minimal flow to urinal flushing cisterns, not for the filling of storage tanks!

Of course boaters are removing them out of frustration, not are not intended for this purpose!

 

Keith

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30 minutes ago, Paringa said:

I can understand boaters frustration with the valves - and i don't even mind them removing them temporarily - as long as they are put back!

Yes I agree but I would assume that the fitting was ditched in order to make a point.

Having seen other taps that have been tampered with in other ways I can see that EA will be forced to find another solution.

 

Keith

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37 minutes ago, Steilsteven said:

Yes I agree but I would assume that the fitting was ditched in order to make a point.

Having seen other taps that have been tampered with in other ways I can see that EA will be forced to find another solution.

 

Keith

I hope the ‘other solution’ to taps being ‘tampered with’ won’t be the complete removal of the facility…….

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26 minutes ago, frangar said:

CRT actually fought to keep the existing standpipes successfully. The various water boards wanted them to be the same as the EA but some lobbying saw sense prevail. 

Yes, the only place I have found them at CRT facilities is in elsan disposal flushing points.

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10 hours ago, Paringa said:

Any of you heading to Shiplake lock for water will find the tap has been "vandalised" by the removal of the valve.

 

I didn't have a fitting to attach so couldn't get water.

 

Trying to report it to the EA is very hard. Andy (lockie) reported it on the 29th for repair.

 

I will now have to carry various fittings to go on waterpoints that may or may not be working.

 

Only a matter of time before this happened.

Buckets. 

 

Two of them. Just normal ones B&Q do the orange ones. I prefer black ones. 

 

Place bucket #1 under the tap, fill. Remove and place #2 under tap.  Manually transport bucket #1 to boat and pour into funnel directed into water tank. 

 

Rinse and repeat. 

 

Good exercise and gets the job done quickly with no need for hose nonsense. 

 

Those arrowvalves fittings are just screwed into a normal male tap thread. I suspect a lot of them will have become slightly less well screwed on with time. Don't like seeing vandalism though. Put back on after use. 

 

 

 

Edited by magnetman
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1 hour ago, magnetman said:

Buckets. 

 

Two of them. Just normal ones B&Q do the orange ones. I prefer black ones. 

 

Place bucket #1 under the tap, fill. Remove and place #2 under tap.  Manually transport bucket #1 to boat and pour into funnel directed into water tank. 

 

Rinse and repeat. 

 

Or instead of a bucket you could use the traditional version.

32701115336_ae7a7b2076_b.jpg

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9 hours ago, Bacchus said:

 

I have a 400 litre water tank. I don't think it would be that quick.

I reckon it's faster than using hose on one of the taps being discussed which have holes in the side of the fitting. 

 

Not as easy as hose but if done right it will be swift. I reckon one bucket takes less than a minute to fill and empty on a normal tap and using a sensible funnel. 15 litre buckets so about 25 minutes for 400 litres. How long does one of these silly taps take with a hose? 

 

My boat carries over a tonne of fresh water in 5 separate tanks. The idea is to add a bit regularly rather than wait until it is empty. Having said that I now use settled and filtered river water for washing purposes so don't need so much from these supplies anyway. 

 

 

Edited by magnetman
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8 hours ago, magnetman said:

I reckon it's faster than using hose on one of the taps being discussed which have holes in the side of the fitting. 

 

Not as easy as hose but if done right it will be swift. I reckon one bucket takes less than a minute to fill and empty on a normal tap and using a sensible funnel. 15 litre buckets so about 25 minutes for 400 litres. How long does one of these silly taps take with a hose? 

 

My boat carries over a tonne of fresh water in 5 separate tanks. The idea is to add a bit regularly rather than wait until it is empty. Having said that I now use settled and filtered river water for washing purposes so don't need so much from these supplies anyway. 

 

 

They use to put fires out doing

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3 hours ago, Ronaldo47 said:

If you are comparing like with like, you need to compare how long it takes one of those silly taps to fill a bucket and compare that with the time taken  using a hose on a silly tap. 

Thats a good point. 

 

The fact the silly taps slow the water flow down so much probably makes buckets less effective. 

 

My comment was a response to the @Paringa problem of not having the correct fitting for a tap which had been vandalised by removing the silly arrowvalves item. 

 

Ironically this resulted in a high flow outlet where buckets would have been very effective. 

 

Buckets take out the uncertainty in life. Think of it as a rule in life in general. 

 

if you are in trouble, whatever trouble it could be boat related or not boat related, what you really need is buckets. 

 

one day this will save your life. 

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6 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

They use to put fires out doing

Years ago someone was selling fire buckets at the car boot sale which used to be held at ricknansworth station car park. They were proper ones round on the base so you couldn't put them down. Also had the effect of holding more water. 

 

Used to see them by Thames locks too but not noticed them recently

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