Confusing survey. Advice please.

[RosieMarshall]

Hi there, I am currently in the process of buying my first canal boat and looking for some friendly advice please. I got a survey done last week and the surveyor called to let me know that he had quite a few concerns with the boat, mainly electrics, and the BSS. Turns out the same surveyor had in fact passed the boats BSS in 2018, however didn't realise due to a change in boat name and ownership. So, this has left me feeling rather confused.. I would love to get a second opinion but simply cannot afford it. The surveyor seems, from our phone conversations, like a decent person as does the previous owner of the boat. Anyone who might be able to offer some advice or insight would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. 

[TheBiscuits]

The owner could have changed things since the BSS was done.  I doubt the surveyor is trying to scam you.  You could consider asking the seller to get a new 4-year BSS on the boat so you know it's sorted.

 

Did you have any other concerns than the BSS items, or have you not got the full survey report yet?

[RosieMarshall]

Yes she has already offered actually which has been great. And no I didn't imagine he would be. Still not got the full report yet so perhaps I should wait and see what that has to say?

[PD1964]

So the boat has been sold since the Surveyor did the current BSS and you believe he couldn’t remember it due to owner and name change. He may still have his copy of the report and should be able to find it using Boat Index Number/Previous Name and may be able to surmise to why the electrics have been changed. 
 When you say previous owner(decent person) are you talking about the person that owned it when it had it’s BSS and sold it to the person your buying it off. Or are you calling the “previous owner” the current owner/seller being decent?

  Also was it you who picked the Surveyor independently or were you advised to use this surveyor from the owner/seller?

  As previous says the boat could of been altered with new electrical layouts added after the BSS. 

  

   

Edited March 22, 2021 by PD1964

[Arthur Marshall]

My electrics got passed annually until the last BSS, so there may have been some changes.

[Richard10002]

3 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

My electrics got passed annually until the last BSS, so there may have been some changes.

 

What sort of things did it fail on? Mine looks like a snakes breakfast but it has passed twice in my ownership... although I've added a Li bank since the last one.

[Tony Brooks]

I think before any of us can give an informed opinion we need to see the words and ideally photos of the alleged problems. You may need to give a general area in case a more knowledgable member offer to visit the boat and give their opinion.

 

Remember the surveyor is supposed to work for your interests so they tend to "big up" things that are not perfect so you have levers for a price reduction or to ask for rectification.

 

It's easy to find things that could be described as being of concern on older boats electrical systems but how dangerous they really are is questionable. As an example, about 25 years ago when I bought my boat the surveyor was very critical of the way choc-block connections had been used  throughout the boat's lighting system. I know they are far from ideal but I could not see any other connector system would fit into the available space. They were all tight and in good condition so I left them for the next 20 plus years with no problems, even minor ones. Its a concern if there is no wiring diagram and there are odd unmarked cables wandering about but that does not mean it's not perfectly serviceable. It may be different when trying to fault find though.

Edited March 23, 2021 by Tony Brooks

[PD1964]

A surveyor that “Big Up’s” things is not a Surveyor I would recommend. Yes the surveyor is working for the buyer but you want an honest true to fact survey, not one that “Big’s Up” things just to give the buyer a reason to get a price reduction and also it could put concerns in the mind of the buyer causing them to walk away from the sale.

  I have seen a surveyor that did  “Big Up” a survey and all the seller and buyer did was to get another surveyor in that had a more sensible approach to put the buyers mind at rest. It later developed that the Surveyor was selling a similar boat that he mentioned to the buyer after they received the “Big Up” survey.

 He is now not recommended by a few Marina’s.

 

Edited March 23, 2021 by PD1964

[Tony Brooks]

18 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

A surveyor that “Big Up’s” things is not a Surveyor I would recommend. Yes the surveyor is working for the buyer but you want an honest true to fact survey, not one that “Big’s Up” things just to give the buyer a reason to get a price reduction and also it could put concerns in the mind of the buyer causing them to walk away from the sale.

  I have seen a surveyor that did  “Big Up” a survey and all the seller and buyer did was to get another surveyor in that had a more sensible approach to put the buyers mind at rest. It later developed that the Surveyor was selling a similar boat that he mentioned to the buyer after they received the “Big Up” survey.

 He is now not recommended by a few Marina’s.

 

 

So you would prefer a surveyor to say nothing about a working but a way from best practice electrical system rather than point out that it has potential problems? It is my view a surveyors job to bring to the attention of the customer any incidents of less than best practice but hopefully put that into context safety, durability and reliability wise in the report. That is what I mean by "big up".

 

I have no doubt a surveyor who tells it like it is and does not ignore potential problems not recommended by "a few Marinas".  Must make sales more difficult if the purchaser has a long list of potential problems. In turn that leads to commission being more difficult to obtain.

 

I accept that many new purchasers new to boating will have difficulty in grasping what serious in the report and what is not but that is another problem. A surveyor should not fail to mention things because the customer may not understand their significance.

Edited March 23, 2021 by Tony Brooks

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I accept that many new purchasers new to boating will have difficulty in grasping what serious in the report and what is not but that is another problem. A surveyor should not fail to mention things because the customer may not understand their significance.

 

 

In the surveys I have seen, the surveyor tends to have 3 categories of 'issues' and his report will show what each 'fault' will fit into :

 

Cat 1 = Dangerous do not use the boat until rectified (maybe a gas leak or a fuel leak type of problem)

Cat 2 = Not an immediate problem but will need resolving within X months ( maybe, blacking new anodes, rust, leaking windows etc)

Cat 3 = Will need fixing within the next x years (Thin baseplate readings, engine 'severley poorly' etc)

 

 

For example, his survey report could say something like :

 

Uncapped gas pipe in galley require fixing (Cat 1)

[blackrose]

4 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Remember the surveyor is supposed to work for your interests so they tend to "big up" things that are not perfect so you have levers for a price reduction or to ask for rectification.

 

 

Yes, if anyone was trying to scam you, they wouldn't be highlighting potential issues, they'd be doing the opposite (unless of course at the same time they're also recommending a mate who can rectify the issues).

Edited March 23, 2021 by blackrose

[doratheexplorer]

The surveyor is probably just one of those people who likes to be helpful and compliant.  When he did the last BSS, he was being paid by the owner so wasn't too picky, and only looked for anything really bad.  Now he's being paid by a prospective buyer so his allegiance has changed and he's looked over it with a fine toothed comb and found a few faults.  It's not uncommon.  And it's human nature.

[Tony Brooks]

10 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

The surveyor is probably just one of those people who likes to be helpful and compliant.  When he did the last BSS, he was being paid by the owner so wasn't too picky, and only looked for anything really bad.  Now he's being paid by a prospective buyer so his allegiance has changed and he's looked over it with a fine toothed comb and found a few faults.  It's not uncommon.  And it's human nature.

 

That is exactly my own thoughts on this and it could be that nothing noted is in any way dangerous or unreliable. However, we have not seen any part of the report or the boat so can't really judge. If the Surveyor is, as it seems, a BSS examiner then we all probably know the lack of consistency shown across the examiners. Too many seem to make up regulations to suit their needs or whims.

[TheBiscuits]

4 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

If the Surveyor is, as it seems, a BSS examiner then we all probably know the lack of consistency shown across the examiners

 

As it was the same chap who did the last BSS I'd suspect later changes in this case.

[doratheexplorer]

2 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

As it was the same chap who did the last BSS I'd suspect later changes in this case.

Ah, but he didn't know he'd done the BSS, which is the point.  Humans aren't particularly renowned for consistency.

[ditchcrawler]

I would expect there are a lot of electrical items a surveyor could and would pick up when doing a survey that are not part of a BSS examination

[PD1964]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

So you would prefer a surveyor to say nothing about a working but a way from best practice electrical system rather than point out that it has potential problems? It is my view a surveyors job to bring to the attention of the customer any incidents of less than best practice but hopefully put that into context safety, durability and reliability wise in the report. That is what I mean by "big up".

 

I have no doubt a surveyor who tells it like it is and does not ignore potential problems not recommended by "a few Marinas".  Must make sales more difficult if the purchaser has a long list of potential problems. In turn that leads to commission being more difficult to obtain.

 

I accept that many new purchasers new to boating will have difficulty in grasping what serious in the report and what is not but that is another problem. A surveyor should not fail to mention things because the customer may not understand their significance.

I have never said I didn’t want a surveyor to highlight problems. I want a surveyor to tell it as it is.

When you said “Big Up” in your comment. You implied a Surveyor who is working for you would exaggerate a problem or bring up a trivial one in order for you to get a reduction in the price or get the owner to rectify the “Big Up” issue.

  A surveyor that tells it as it is and highlights problems would be recommended by a Marina as long as he is sensible about the issues and not “Bigging Up” things.

 Maybe you should of used “Bring Up” and not “Big Up” as to most people “Big Up” means to exaggerate and over egg  the issue.

[Tony Brooks]

12 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

I have never said I didn’t want a surveyor to highlight problems. I want a surveyor to tell it as it is.

When you said “Big Up” in your comment. You implied a Surveyor who is working for you would exaggerate a problem or bring up a trivial one in order for you to get a reduction in the price or get the owner to rectify the “Big Up” issue.

  A surveyor that tells it as it is and highlights problems would be recommended by a Marina as long as he is sensible about the issues and not “Bigging Up” things.Edit

 Maybe you should of used “Bring Up” and not “Big Up” as to most people “Big Up” means to exaggerate and over egg  the issue.

 

Accepted, but I do not accept any marina should do anything to discourage a potential purchaser from employing the surveyor of their choice. My experience suggest there a some that may.

 

The list a surveyor produces is likely to worry someone new to boat buying.

Edited March 23, 2021 by Tony Brooks

[PD1964]

Just now, Tony Brooks said:

 

Accepted, but I do not accept any marina should do anything to discourage a potential purchaser from employing the surveyor of their choice. My experience suggest there a some that may.

Yes, but when a surveyor condemns a hull then informs the buyer that he is selling a similar boat, it suggests a conflict of interest. Especially when another Survey recommends only a few re-plates. So you can see why Mariners are reluctant to recommend.

[Tony Brooks]

2 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

Yes, but when a surveyor condemns a hull then informs the buyer that he is selling a similar boat, it suggests a conflict of interest. Especially when another Survey recommends only a few re-plates. So you can see why Mariners are reluctant to recommend.

 

But who was correct, it's all a matter of opinion. Certainly in the case as you give it there seems to a question of integrity. However, I am sure a potential owner asking a broker/marina for a recommendation is just asking to have potential problems hidden. In the case you raise the first surveyor could have been correct and trying to help a buyer and the second the marina's tame surveyor known to  not obstruct sales.

[PD1964]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

But who was correct, it's all a matter of opinion. Certainly in the case as you give it there seems to a question of integrity. However, I am sure a potential owner asking a broker/marina for a recommendation is just asking to have potential problems hidden. In the case you raise the first surveyor could have been correct and trying to help a buyer and the second the marina's tame surveyor known to  not obstruct sales.

Just to put you right, the second surveyor wasn’t the Marina’s tame surveyor but a far more experienced and respected surveyor then the first and highly regarded in the area.  I’ve never known a Marina to recommend a specific surveyor, but to offer a list of Surveyors that work the Region that both buyers and sellers have been happy with, with the person looking for the surveyor having the final say.

  It seams you know Surveyors that “Big Up” issues to give their employer(buyer) a reason to get a reduction on the price or minor work done and also tame Surveyors that are recommended/work for Marina’s in order to sweeten the sale and get the purchase through. Fortunately I don’t know any Surveyors like this and certainly wouldn’t associate or recommend them.

 Maybe you have identified the problem why there is an inconsistency between surveyors.

Edited March 23, 2021 by PD1964

[RosieMarshall]

Thanks for all your responses. I received the full report today and the surveyor has made it a lot more clear as to what he was referring to and what needs to be done to the boat. The current owner is also getting a new BSS and an electrical survey on the boat so it's all looking good!