How do you value a mooring???

[Willow86]

Hello boat folks, I’ve been looking for a boat with residential mooring in Oxfordshire for a long time and have finally spotted one I like - well, I very, very (that’s two ‘very’s) much like the mooring and I very (one very) much like the boat. The boat definitely needs some work to bring the interior up to date but I’m anticipating that a comprehensive survey will find the hull and structure in good order. This is ok with me as I have some budget for ‘redecoration’. The thing is, I have been advised that the asking price for the boat is significantly higher (twice the price) than the boat’s actual value simply because the mooring is in a prime location ie close to city centre and commuter links, etc. and the C&RT have agreed that it can be transferred. I can appreciate that, but I’m struggling to understand where the figures have come from. You can survey a boat to find out it’s true value, but how do you find out the value of a mooring? I’d really like to know so that I can make a fair offer. Thanks so much for any advice anyone would care to give. It’s much appreciated.

[ditchcrawler]

Its what you are prepared to pay for it. I take its the one on the agender 21 moorings with the very muddy towpath. As for value, when did you last see a residentual mooring available in Oxford

[Tacet]

The value of a mooring (if any) partly relates to its perceived profit rent.  That is, the difference between the rental value and the rent payable.  If the rent payable is below the level which is (or would be) payable for a new agreement, it might have a value to a transferee.

 

The next issue is the length of time this happy state of affairs can be expected to continue.  Mostly, moorings have no security of tenure nor any guarantee that the rent may remain at a lowish level which mans that handing over any premium for the mooring is taking a risk.  Nevertheless, it is quite common to see five figure sums added to the value of the boat as a mooring-less chattel.  I wouldn't pay it - but some do to get a well-located mooring in the hope that they can remain at a good rent.

 

As it happens, the Agenda 21 moorings at Oxford may be the exception to the no-security rule - but you would need to check any agreement carefully to ascertain the long term rights.  

[Willow86]

1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

Its what you are prepared to pay for it. I take its the one on the agender 21 moorings with the very muddy towpath. As for value, when did you last see a residentual mooring available in Oxford

Ahh...I see.... Does this explain the seemingly wild variation in prices between boats in varying conditions? I guess as with all property it really does come down to location, location, location.

[Willow86]

50 minutes ago, Tacet said:

The value of a mooring (if any) partly relates to its perceived profit rent.  That is, the difference between the rental value and the rent payable.  If the rent payable is below the level which is (or would be) payable for a new agreement, it might have a value to a transferee.

 

The next issue is the length of time this happy state of affairs can be expected to continue.  Mostly, moorings have no security of tenure nor any guarantee that the rent may remain at a lowish level which mans that handing over any premium for the mooring is taking a risk.  Nevertheless, it is quite common to see five figure sums added to the value of the boat as a mooring-less chattel.  I wouldn't pay it - but some do to get a well-located mooring in the hope that they can remain at a good rent.

 

As it happens, the Agenda 21 moorings at Oxford may be the exception to the no-security rule - but you would need to check any agreement carefully to ascertain the long term rights.  

Forgive my ignorance - I need that in layman’s terms. Are you saying that basically, if a well-located mooring is more affordably-priced (in terms of mooring fees/rent) and transferable, then the boat on that mooring may have a significantly higher sale value than another ‘better’ boat with no permanent mooring, since a ‘new’ mooring agreement - in that location - would likely have *even higher* fees? The thing that baffles me is that I wouldn’t say that any long term residential moorings in close proximity of Oxford city centre are exactly ‘affordably priced’ anyway? So it seems you pay a subjective premium to acquire it and then through the nose to retain it.

 

I may have just talked myself out of the whole thing...

[john6767]

5 hours ago, Willow86 said:

Forgive my ignorance - I need that in layman’s terms. Are you saying that basically, if a well-located mooring is more affordably-priced (in terms of mooring fees/rent) and transferable, then the boat on that mooring may have a significantly higher sale value than another ‘better’ boat with no permanent mooring, since a ‘new’ mooring agreement - in that location - would likely have *even higher* fees? The thing that baffles me is that I wouldn’t say that any long term residential moorings in close proximity of Oxford city centre are exactly ‘affordably priced’ anyway? So it seems you pay a subjective premium to acquire it and then through the nose to retain it.

 

I may have just talked myself out of the whole thing...

If you are talking about the Agenda 21 moorings in Oxford they are a bit of a special case, in that the mooring is transferable.  Normal “commercial” moorings are not transferable and have no rights, I believe the Agenda 21 ones do have some rights and are transferable.  Therefore if you value the mooring then you will pay more for a boat on those moorings as you are getting the right to the mooring as well as the boat.  If you are interested in those moorings then you should spend some time walking the towpath there, to understand what it is like in reality.

[Tony Brooks]

7 hours ago, Willow86 said:

Ahh...I see.... Does this explain the seemingly wild variation in prices between boats in varying conditions? I guess as with all property it really does come down to location, location, location.

 

Exactly what John says. If any mooring anywhere on the system has the right to legally transfer it with the boat then when you buy the boat you are also buying the right to moor, even if you then have to pay mooring fees. This  means that any boats on such moorings are priced to reflect that. Simply they cost far more than the same boat on any other non-transferable mooring.

 

Moorings with the right to transfer are  exceptionally rare, its just that you picked an area that has some of these very rare transferable moorings but also a lot of normal ones so similar boats in that area will show a considerable price difference depending on the status of the mooring.

 

Even apparently similar moorings have different prices depending upon the facilities they offer and their popularity. If you want a trouble free experience my advice would be to start walking the area to assess the facilities, security, general surrounding area and such like. Then you will get some idea of why some are more expensive than others.

 

[DaveP]

There's also a boat for sale on the Hythe Bridge arm moorings (which are aso apparently transferrable).  Having glanced over it whilst I was there last summer, I'd say that it was 50/50 boat/mooring price.  I don't particularly like that location (too close to the lock and the commuters can get a bit much), but it does have electric and water on the plot....

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

17 minutes ago, DaveP said:

There's also a boat for sale on the Hythe Bridge arm moorings (which are aso apparently transferrable).  Having glanced over it whilst I was there last summer, I'd say that it was 50/50 boat/mooring price.  I don't particularly like that location (too close to the lock and the commuters can get a bit much), but it does have electric and water on the plot....

 

 

 

I would much rather be in that community than much of the Adgenda 21 area though.

[J R ALSOP]

10 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

Its what you are prepared to pay for it. I take its the one on the agender 21 moorings with the very muddy towpath. As for value, when did you last see a residentual mooring available in Oxford

The towpath along side the Agenda 21 moorings have recently had a substantial make over, its a bit like a new motorway now.

[Tacet]

8 hours ago, Willow86 said:

Forgive my ignorance - I need that in layman’s terms. Are you saying that basically, if a well-located mooring is more affordably-priced (in terms of mooring fees/rent) and transferable, then the boat on that mooring may have a significantly higher sale value than another ‘better’ boat with no permanent mooring, since a ‘new’ mooring agreement - in that location - would likely have *even higher* fees? The thing that baffles me is that I wouldn’t say that any long term residential moorings in close proximity of Oxford city centre are exactly ‘affordably priced’ anyway? So it seems you pay a subjective premium to acquire it and then through the nose to retain it.

 

I may have just talked myself out of the whole thing...

Essentially yes - but in the case of a truly transferable (and valuable) mooring it is that which you are paying the extra for - and not the boat.  It may not be expressed that way in any deal, but that is why you are paying more.

 

Affordably priced is quite subjective - but where there is great demand for a mooring at a fixed/known) rent, the firm implication is that someone would pay more.  Market rents and affordable rents (e.g. the rent I would like to pay) may well not be identical in Oxford.

 

We have no info on the mooring under consideration - nor do I know enough about the Agenda 21 deal.  But I could not bring myself to pay a large sum on the hope/chance that the mooring would continue to be available at a favourable rate; usually there is no security of tenure with a mooring.   Having said this, people do and particularly where the owner is a public body, the arrangement may continue for years.    Unless you are confirdent of covering the premium during your own occupation, you are probably taking a chance that the same situation prevails when you come to move on.

 

Back to Agenda 21, whatever the deal, I doubt it rolls on for ever and a day; the rule against perpetuities would likely prevent that  - and one would doubt (hope?) that BW did not start something it could never stop.

[Alan de Enfield]

11 hours ago, Willow86 said:

Thanks so much for any advice anyone would care to give. It’s much appreciated.

 

 

There has so far been an assmption that you are talking about the Agenda 21 moorings, although you may not be.

 

Can you confirm yes or no ?

Other moorings will have very different conditions to the Agenda 21 moorings, and the fact C&RT have agreed that they would transfer the rental contract to you does not automatically mean you have any security.

 

Where are the moorings ?

[Tony Brooks]

I don't think the OP has any particular mooring in mind, they said "Oxford area" and for those that know it brings the Agenda 21 moorings into play so the OP needed to be warned about them and the price of boats on legally transferable moorings. Later posts implied that the "Oxford area" was not as vital as it first seemed.

 

I must say that I am surprised that the Hythe Arm moorings are legally transferable so for any boat where the vendor says the mooring rights are transferable I would advise double checking with other sources that things are as the vendor claims.

[David Mack]

11 hours ago, Willow86 said:

You can survey a boat to find out it’s true value, but how do you find out the value of a mooring?

 

There's no such thing as a "true value" of aboat. A boat surveyor doesn't have some magical skill or source of hidden insight, he just has the knowledge and experience to give a professional opinion on what price a willing seller and a willing buyer might be prepared to do a deal at - the market price. That price will reflect both the attributes of the boat and the level of supply and demand.

The same is true of a mooring. A mooring agreement which can be ended at little or no notice has little intrinsic value, whereas one that is guaranteed to be ongoing offers a level of security for the future which most buyers would see as adding value. Since there are few such moorings and many potential occupiers the law of supply and demand tends to place a high value on this security.

The high price you are seeing for the boat you are interested in represents the value of the boat alone plus the premium for the security of the mooring. It is not unknown for boats on such moorings to change hands solely for the new owner to acquire the mooring rights for a boat already owned, and for the boat originally on the mooring to be quickly sold off, for a significantly lower sum.

[Alan de Enfield]

30 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I don't think the OP has any particular mooring in mind, they said "Oxford area" and for those that know it brings the Agenda 21 moorings into play so the OP needed to be warned about them and the price of boats on legally transferable moorings. Later posts implied that the "Oxford area" was not as vital as it first seemed.

 

I must say that I am surprised that the Hythe Arm moorings are legally transferable so for any boat where the vendor says the mooring rights are transferable I would advise double checking with other sources that things are as the vendor claims.

 

Agreed (re Agenda 21 moorings), but if the seller is telling a 'newbie' that there is a premium to be paid on a 'standard C&RT mooring' because C&RT have agreed to allow her to take over the mooring contract, that is a very different scenario to actually having any security, and paying a 100% premium on the value of the boat.

 

We all know the situation re moorings, but a 1st timer, has no such experience & just has to rely on what she is told.

 

She may well be talking about the Agenda 21 moorings, but assumptions are often found to be incorrect. If the OP wants advice it would allow us to give her more accurate / correct advice if she detailed which mooring she was considering.

 

 

Just for the benefit of the OP, you are not owning your mooring, even if it has been legally transferred to you.

You are simply renting the space, just as you rent a flat - you don't own it.

 

All that is being legally transferred to you is the 'mooring contract' (that allows you to moor there) You still need to pay your annual 'rent'.

Edited March 23, 2021 by Alan de Enfield

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I would much rather be in that community than much of the Adgenda 21 area though.

And me.

24 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

She may well be talking about the Agenda 21 moorings, but assumptions are often found to be incorrect. If the OP wants advice it would allow us to give her more accurate / correct advice if she detailed which mooring she was considering.

 

That is why I mentioned it as there is a boat for sale up there, nice photo on FB with a very muddy towpath.

[Athy]

18 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

 

That is why I mentioned it as there is a boat for sale up there, nice photo on FB with a very muddy towpath.

I had a look on Face Book, put "Boat for sale Oxford" into the search facility, but nothing relevant came up. How did you find it?

[Willow86]

Oh yikes! I hope I haven’t started a forum fire! Whilst I sincerely appreciate the advice all of you have shared - so thorough, knowledgeable and concise! - I am weary of sharing much more about my situation due to bad experiences in the past. I should clarify though that I don’t believe I’ve been misled by any seller I’ve (admittedly briefly) spoken to regards the transferability of moorings, in fact I have been encouraged to verify their advice with C&RT. The reason why I asked the question of how to value a mooring is because since starting my search for a boat I have had a hard time getting my head around my perception that you could have two boats so similar in specifications with such hugely varying prices perhaps due to how well they’ve been maintained, type of engine etc etc and then adding the seemingly subjective valuation of mooring spaces... buying a boat is by far more tricksy than buying a house, in my opinion. Again, though, all of this advice has been very helpful and what I’m taking away ultimately is to be thorough in verifying the conditions of mooring transferability regardless of where I settle on (if at all!). Thank you so much, all.?

[Athy]

6 minutes ago, Willow86 said:

Oh yikes! I hope I haven’t started a forum fire! 

Not in the slightest. I hope you'll agree that our members have tried to be helpful.

6 minutes ago, Willow86 said:

 - I am weary of sharing much more about my situation due to bad experiences in the past. 

Weary or wary?

I can understand that; on the other hand, the more details we know, the better our members (who include very experienced boaters and waterways professionals) can offer informed advice.

Edited March 23, 2021 by Athy

[john6767]

9 minutes ago, Willow86 said:

Oh yikes! I hope I haven’t started a forum fire! Whilst I sincerely appreciate the advice all of you have shared - so thorough, knowledgeable and concise! - I am weary of sharing much more about my situation due to bad experiences in the past. I should clarify though that I don’t believe I’ve been misled by any seller I’ve (admittedly briefly) spoken to regards the transferability of moorings, in fact I have been encouraged to verify their advice with C&RT. The reason why I asked the question of how to value a mooring is because since starting my search for a boat I have had a hard time getting my head around my perception that you could have two boats so similar in specifications with such hugely varying prices perhaps due to how well they’ve been maintained, type of engine etc etc and then adding the seemingly subjective valuation of mooring spaces... buying a boat is by far more tricksy than buying a house, in my opinion. Again, though, all of this advice has been very helpful and what I’m taking away ultimately is to be thorough in verifying the conditions of mooring transferability regardless of where I settle on (if at all!). Thank you so much, all.?

The only time the mooring will have any impact on the selling price of a boat is the very rare case of a transferable mooring.  The Agenda 21 moorings in Oxford are a rare case of a transferable mooring.  How much that adds to the value of the boat only you can decide, it is worth what someone will pay for it.  If you do not like the moorings then it is worth nothing to you.  If it is the perfect mooring for you then you need to decide how much it is worth.

[Willow86]

14 minutes ago, Athy said:

Not in the slightest. I hope you'll agree that our members have tried to be helpful.

Weary or wary?

I can understand that; on the other hand, the more details we know, the better our members (who include very experienced boaters and waterways professionals) can offer informed advice.

Whoops - typo - yes, I mean wary, due to past toxic relationships. I absolutely agree that all who’ve commented have tried and succeeded in being helpful. I appreciate I have asked a vague question in hopes of a precise answer!??‍♀️

[David Mack]

20 minutes ago, john6767 said:

The only time the mooring will have any impact on the selling price of a boat is the very rare case of a transferable mooring.  

 

That ought to be the case, but we have had examples in the past, where sellers have sought to suggest that the mooring is more or less guaranteed (and priced accordingly), whereas in reality it only exists by virtue of the goodwill of the landowner and navigation authority. One of the worst examples I recall was where an estate agent was selling a boat on a CRT mooring in London, priced more as if it was a London flat, whereas without the mooring the boat was worth a fraction of the asking price. That looked like professional negligence to me. But one can see how a cash-strapped Londoner looking for somewhere affordable to live could be taken in.

 

[Tony Brooks]

4 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

That ought to be the case, but we have had examples in the past, where sellers have sought to suggest that the mooring is more or less guaranteed (and priced accordingly), whereas in reality it only exists by virtue of the goodwill of the landowner and navigation authority. One of the worst examples I recall was where an estate agent was selling a boat on a CRT mooring in London, priced more as if it was a London flat, whereas without the mooring the boat was worth a fraction of the asking price. That looked like professional negligence to me. But one can see how a cash-strapped Londoner looking for somewhere affordable to live could be taken in.

 

 

And I suspect a similar situation could easily arise at the around Bath and Oxford. Oxford could be worse just because there are those transferable moorings so some could easily assume all Oxford moorings were.

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

That ought to be the case, but we have had examples in the past, where sellers have sought to suggest that the mooring is more or less guaranteed (and priced accordingly), whereas in reality it only exists by virtue of the goodwill of the landowner and navigation authority. One of the worst examples I recall was where an estate agent was selling a boat on a CRT mooring in London, priced more as if it was a London flat, whereas without the mooring the boat was worth a fraction of the asking price. That looked like professional negligence to me. But one can see how a cash-strapped Londoner looking for somewhere affordable to live could be taken in.

 

 

 

That was the point I was trying you get across, you have elucidated it far better than I did.

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, Athy said:

I had a look on Face Book, put "Boat for sale Oxford" into the search facility, but nothing relevant came up. How did you find it?

It was just someone posted "My friend has this boat for sale, its a good boat , well looked after, transferable mooring etc,