HS2 West London

[fanshaft]

1 hour ago, The Happy Nomad said:

If it really only is about capacity why build a line capable of such high speed?

 

How much less would it have cost to simply replicate a line similar to the ECML and WCML?

 

Using existing track and signalling technology and existing rolling stock designs would have been much cheaper surely?

Because there are many advantages of high speed - better utilisation of stock for example, and time saving can be worth having over the longer distances e.g. London to Leeds is currently 2 hrs and a quarter, that will come down to about an hour or so.  The difference in cost between a 125 mph railway and a high speed line is probably not that great in the grand scheme.  Existing signalling technology (my field) is being replaced by ETCS (in cab signalling but more sophisticated in the more recent designs) which does away with line-side signals and provides major safety benefits  - HS 1 has been signalled that way since inception, as have all the European and other overseas high speed lines,  and more recently the latest iteration on the Cambrian Line in Wales. It brings many advantages including cost savings as well as enhanced safety. This signalling is to be introduced along the East Coast main line soon, north of London, and will eventually be rolled out nationally, replacing life expired signalling (mainly that from the 1960s and 1970s) - but it will take many years!   The actual trains use existing high speed designs, like the latest Eurostar trains) and the track is not significantly different.

[Victor Vectis]

46 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

Yes, but! There are plenty of established services and places that attract similar comments - like village post offices for example. The trouble is that in many cases the real commitment of people to such folk tradition can be seen in the accounts < snip >

 

NO!

 

The trouble is that the world is ruled by bean counters that know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

[fanshaft]

11 minutes ago, David Mack said:

The Great Central route was designed for higher speeds than the other main lines of the time and also to continental rolling stock gauge, as part of a plan to link with Europe via the Channel Tunnel proposals of the time.

Its downfall in Beeching's time was partly due to a route that, once it left London, didn't serve any significant settlements until it reached Rugby, and so there was no demand for stopping services. In HS2 terms that would be a positive advantage! 

Reopening has been looked at, but faces too many obstacles. The London Maylebone terminus is full with Chiltern Line services, the land alongside acquired for enlargement having been long built on (including former BW HQ Melbury House). The route has been built on through Leicester, between Leicester and Loughborough it is used by the Great Central (steam) railway (who have aspirations to extend north), in south and central Nottingham the route is used by the tram, with Nottingham Victoria Station now being the Victoria shopping centre, between Sheffield and Manchester the original Woodhead tunnels are in poor condition and sealed up, the 1950s parallel tunnel is now used for HV electric cables.  By the time you have constructed diversions around all the obstacles there isn't that much of the original alignment which can be used.

That is all very true though I'm told that the GC wasn't to the full continental gauge / envelope as we understand it now - indeed it was built before the generally accepted 'Bern gauge' (3.15 m width)  was adopted in 1914 (GC width is 2.82 metres - certainly wider than earlier railways)..  I do wonder why, if the GC was constructed for higher speeds, they weren't historically routinely attained (75-80 mph seemed to be the maximum)  whereas the ECML for example got the streamliners before the war.  Having travelled over the GC in my misspent youth it  seemed slower than its rivals!

[David Mack]

I believe the alignment was built for higher speed, even if the trains weren't. Maybe the locomotive technology wasn't there in the early days? And maybe post-grouping the LNER preferred to focus fast services on the ECML route?

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, Victor Vectis said:

 

NO!

 

The trouble is that the world is ruled by bean counters that know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

My mother in law use to live in a Berkshire village and they had a village shop. The owner said he survived on the bugger it trade, people said bugger it I have forgotten to get so and so, just nip to the village shop and get it. 

[Athy]

11 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

My mother in law use to live in a Berkshire village and they had a village shop. The owner said he survived on the bugger it trade, people said bugger it I have forgotten to get so and so, just nip to the village shop and get it. 

Very common, I think. Does anyone do the preponderance of their shopping at a village store nowadays? We use ours exactly as you outline in your post.

[Nightwatch]

On 24/03/2021 at 14:10, The Happy Nomad said:

 

They are were the pinnacle of luxury train travel....................

 

 

Just like the Burscough to Southport trains. Bus seats and bone shakers.

[Mike Todd]

On 24/03/2021 at 19:23, Victor Vectis said:

 

NO!

 

The trouble is that the world is ruled by bean counters that know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

Do how do you propose keeping a business alive that persistently makes a loss? 

[matty40s]

1 minute ago, Mike Todd said:

Do how do you propose keeping a business alive that persistently makes a loss? 

Elon Musk is doing good business doing just that.

[Athy]

10 hours ago, matty40s said:

Elon Musk is doing good business doing just that.

Never heard of them, but I do remember British Leyland getting away with it for years.

[Nightwatch]

2 hours ago, Athy said:

Never heard of them, but I do remember British Leyland getting away with it for years.

Years ago after I left the employ of BL, there was a saying during all the destructive strikes, ‘Absence makes BL go Honda’ which of course they did. Just saying. 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Athy said:

Never heard of them, but I do remember British Leyland getting away with it for years.

 

It's not a 'them' its a 'he'.

 

He s the guy that owns/runs Tesla making leccy cars.

 

He also burns millions (literally) trying to send rockets up into space but they are not quite as successful as his cars.

 

 

 

Edited March 26, 2021 by The Happy Nomad

[Athy]

He sounds like a good name for a '70s American rock band. "Have you heard Elon Musk's new album 'Electric Rocket? It burns, man".

Edited March 26, 2021 by Athy

[cuthound]

17 hours ago, matty40s said:

Elon Musk is doing good business doing just that.

 

Yeah but he is working on the theory that to make a small fortune out of technology you have to start with a large one! ??

[fanshaft]

On 24/03/2021 at 19:55, David Mack said:

I believe the alignment was built for higher speed, even if the trains weren't. Maybe the locomotive technology wasn't there in the early days? And maybe post-grouping the LNER preferred to focus fast services on the ECML route?

That may well be true - the East Coast route presumably offered the greater advantage for the LNER (though it made most of its money from freight of course).

 

[Victor Vectis]

21 hours ago, Mike Todd said:

Do how do you propose keeping a business alive that persistently makes a loss? 

 

Not written by a bean counter, by any chance?

 

[NB Alnwick]

On 24/03/2021 at 19:55, David Mack said:

I believe the alignment was built for higher speed, even if the trains weren't. Maybe the locomotive technology wasn't there in the early days? And maybe post-grouping the LNER preferred to focus fast services on the ECML route?

 

True - the LNER had plans though . . .

If it had not been for the second world war, the GC route would have been electrified. The electric locomotives were designed and at least one had been built before the war. The plan was to start with Manchester to Sheffield with an engine change at Sheffield for trains to London - this actually happened in the immediate post-war years. The steam engines allocated to the Sheffield - Marylebone expresses were Gresley's A3 class pacifics based at Leicester where there was usually a second engine change. The now famous 'Flying Scotsman' was one of the original six allocated to this duty. The named expresses included "The South Yorkshireman" and "The Master Cutler".

[Captain Pegg]

The oft quoted issue of the GCR’s loading gauge is misleading. Berne gauge is a structure (loading) gauge and therefore applies to a train on a single track. For the overall design of a railway the structure gauge has to be considered in combination with track separation. Being 3150mm wide normal passing clearance between two tracks of Berne gauge clearance is achieved at a track separation of 3250mm. This is less than the standard track interval dimension of 3405mm (between centre lines) for GB railway infrastructure. Hence in terms of the width of the corridor the entire GB network is technically wide enough for Berne gauge, however it’s structure envelope is not necessarily conformant.

 

For higher speed running the aerodynamic effects between passing trains takes precedence over physical clearance when determining track separation and at the speeds for which HS2 is being designed technical specifications require separation of at least 4500mm for which the GC formation would not conform and would require rebuilding. The minimum track separation for any new railway is 3800mm. GB railways can only utilise lower values when upgrading existing railways - which would not apply to the GC - but our historic standards are only really fit for 125mph maximum (140mph at a push). The long tunnels on both ECML and WCML do not generally operate at 125mph due to aerodynamic considerations.

 

There’s nothing wrong with the engineering philosophy of HS2 (in fact I’d argue it is the strong point of the proposal). The key issue is about the need.
 

 

[Parahandy]

4 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

The oft quoted issue of the GCR’s loading gauge is misleading. Berne gauge is a structure (loading) gauge and therefore applies to a train on a single track. For the overall design of a railway the structure gauge has to be considered in combination with track separation. Being 3150mm wide normal passing clearance between two tracks of Berne gauge clearance is achieved at a track separation of 3250mm. This is less than the standard track interval dimension of 3405mm (between centre lines) for GB railway infrastructure. Hence in terms of the width of the corridor the entire GB network is technically wide enough for Berne gauge, however it’s structure envelope is not necessarily conformant.

 

For higher speed running the aerodynamic effects between passing trains takes precedence over physical clearance when determining track separation and at the speeds for which HS2 is being designed technical specifications require separation of at least 4500mm for which the GC formation would not conform and would require rebuilding. The minimum track separation for any new railway is 3800mm. GB railways can only utilise lower values when upgrading existing railways - which would not apply to the GC - but our historic standards are only really fit for 125mph maximum (140mph at a push). The long tunnels on both ECML and WCML do not generally operate at 125mph due to aerodynamic considerations.

 

There’s nothing wrong with the engineering philosophy of HS2 (in fact I’d argue it is the strong point of the proposal). The key issue is about the need.
 

 

I found that really fascinating Captain Pegg . I am all for big Capital Projects being enacted especially in these times of historically low interest rates on borrowed money .

[Athy]

14 hours ago, NB Alnwick said:

 

True - the LNER had plans though . . .

If it had not been for the second world war, the GC route would have been electrified. The electric locomotives were designed and at least one had been built before the war. The plan was to start with Manchester to Sheffield with an engine change at Sheffield for trains to London - this actually happened in the immediate post-war years. The steam engines allocated to the Sheffield - Marylebone expresses were Gresley's A3 class pacifics based at Leicester where there was usually a second engine change. The now famous 'Flying Scotsman' was one of the original six allocated to this duty. The named expresses included "The South Yorkshireman" and "The Master Cutler".

I remember the electrics from my early 1960s train-spotting days at Sheffield Victoria station, but had no idea that there was a proposal to extend their route down to Marylebone.

[NB Alnwick]

On 27/03/2021 at 10:00, Athy said:

I remember the electrics from my early 1960s train-spotting days at Sheffield Victoria station, but had no idea that there was a proposal to extend their route down to Marylebone.

 

The LNER planned to use the 1500 VDC overhead electrification as used in the Netherlands. Manchester - Sheffield was regarded as a good first step. The plan was to stick with steam for main line services and gradually expand electrification of the network rather than use main line diesel traction which was reliant on imported fuel. The war and subsequent nationalization did not initially bring any great changes and electrification of the Woodhead Route together with the new tunnel went ahead after the war. The change of direction came with the first 'modernisation plan' of 1955 and the subsequent changes to the regional boundaries which placed most of the former GCR network under the the control of its powerful political enemies at Derby.

Regarding the question of the nature of the GCR's London Extension and its "Continental Loading Gauge" this was, most definitely, part of the original plan and, although it is true that the 'Berne Gauge' did not exist when the GCR extension was constructed, Watkin's vision was of of a "Continental Loading Gauge" sufficient to enable an exchange of traffic between England and France via a channel tunnel. Also, during planning and construction of the extension, ambitious provision was made for the eventual widening of the formation to quadruple tracks - this is one of the reasons for the island platform design. Additional freight or slow lines could have been added without demolishing the stations. Two world wars and intense opposition thwarted Watkins plans which were well ahead of their time. Unlike the far-sighted Watkin, who planned to do so much by provided Britain's industrial heartland with a direct rail link to Europe, the government that made the transport decisions in the 1950s and 1960s went too far in decimating our essential infrastructure. In my opinion many decisions were driven by the personal bias and greed of Ernest Marples, then Minister of Transport who increased his personal fortune by building motorways and then exiled himself in Monaco to avoid prosecution for tax fraud.

Undoubtedly, Marples was a complete rotter but subsequent governments, who could have reversed his decisions, similarly failed to see the way forward.

For those who oppose HS2 on environmental grounds just look at satellite image maps and compare the concrete motorways championed by Marples with railways and canals that blend into the environment.

Edited March 28, 2021 by NB Alnwick
Spelling

[ditchcrawler]

Interesting program on the box yesterday afternoon with Chris Tarrent on Ch5 

Chris Tarrant examines how trains transformed the nation and shaped modern Britain, beginning with the invention of the steam locomotive and the work of the navvies who dug the tunnels and laid the tracks. Chris then explores the role of the railways during the two world wars and looks at the devastating impact of the Beeching report in the 1960s
 

[Athy]

22 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Interesting program on the box yesterday afternoon with Chris Tarrent on Ch5 

Chris Tarrant examines how trains transformed the nation and shaped modern Britain, beginning with the invention of the steam locomotive and the work of the navvies who dug the tunnels and laid the tracks. Chris then explores the role of the railways during the two world wars and looks at the devastating impact of the Beeching report in the 1960s
 

Is Chris Tarrant better now? I believe that he suffered a stroke a few years ago, which led to his withdrawal from the 'Millionaire' quiz programme.

For some reason your post has come up as white print on a black background.

[ditchcrawler]

9 minutes ago, Athy said:

Is Chris Tarrant better now? I believe that he suffered a stroke a few years ago, which led to his withdrawal from the 'Millionaire' quiz programme.

For some reason your post has come up as white print on a black background.

That is because I copied it from the TV schedule page. He has done several railway programs since his stroke but he doesn't look 100%

 

[Guest]

Just now, ditchcrawler said:

That is because I copied it from the TV schedule page. He has done several railway programs since his stroke but he doesn't look 100%

 

 

If you 'paste as plain text' it doesn't do that.