HS2 West London

[Athy]

5 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

. We are finally getting rid of Pacers though which is a good thing.

Did they sell well up there?

[1st ade]

54 minutes ago, Midnight said:

Not only do we no longer need to get to London 20 minutes faster...

While I don't disagree with the general feeling of all the contributors so far, HS2 has got to be the most mis-named project of all time. It's not the speed that's important, it's the  capacity. But "Bigger Trains 2", "More Wagons 2" or "Lots more Passengers 2"  doesn't have quite the PR angle... Having stood many times for the entire London to Manchester 120 minutes I'm after a seat, not speed!

 

Of course I won't need either for the foreseeable future...

[Mike Todd]

1 hour ago, Midnight said:

Lock-downs have taught us one thing about HS2 - it's already obsolete! Not only do we no longer need to get to London 20 minutes faster we don't need to go at all. And aren't some major government and corporate offices moving out of London anyway? 
Time to scrap it and put the money into maintaining the existing canal system.

An alternative view is that since we are unlikely to see the elimination of London as a focal point for certain types of employment, the progressive transfer out to the regions needs good transport and communication in order to catalyse the process. Of course, in time we all may become home workers and hermits with the gradual loss of social interaction but that will probably see out the expected lifetime of HS2 rolling stock!

 

HS2 is not so much about faster links but greater capacity, without it - arguably - journeys into London will become very expensive as demand well outstrips supply.

36 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

Sadly whilst I agree I do think it's too late now, at least for the first phase. I am probably biased but the money would be much better spent on improving existing rail services oop North. We are finally getting rid of Pacers though which is a good thing.

Should not be either-or.

[Guest]

33 minutes ago, Athy said:

Did they sell well up there?

 

TBH that would be an improvement. Who ever thought sticking a bus on a train carriage would be a good idea.

[Athy]

4 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

TBH that would be an improvement. Who ever thought sticking a bus on a train carriage would be a good idea.

I'm not familiar with the Pacer train; have I had a lucky escape?

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Athy said:

I'm not familiar with the Pacer train; have I had a lucky escape?

 

Yes.

 

I dont know where else they use(d) them but Northern Rail used then extensively.

 

 

Edited March 23, 2021 by The Happy Nomad

[Midnight]

21 minutes ago, Athy said:

I'm not familiar with the Pacer train; have I had a lucky escape?

 

Pacers the only thing with more stoppages than CaRT

[matty40s]

1 hour ago, Mike Todd said:

 

 

HS2 is not so much about faster links but greater capacity, without it - arguably - journeys into London will become very expensive as demand well outstrips supply.

It is also about freeing up the west coast mainline for more freight traffic.

[Nightwatch]

We were in Burscough for some time some years ago. Had need to go to Southport by train. Those trains were ‘interesting’ to say the least, one maybe two carriages. 

[David Mack]

2 hours ago, The Happy Nomad said:

We are finally getting rid of Pacers though which is a good thing.

Northern withdrew their last Pacer in November last year, with Great Western withdrawing theirs the following month. Transport for Wales are still using 15 Class 143 2-car sets on the Valley Lines, having been given dispensation to do so until 31 May this year.

While they were pretty rough, I grew quite fond of the Pacers, particularly the riveted body Class 142s, in my last years of commuting. The refurbished ones operating round here were fairly comfortable, and our track is mostly in good enough condition that their nodding donkey characteristics weren't too much of a problem. And from a passenger perspective they seemed to be as reliable as any other train type (although the maintenance folk may not have agreed).

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Northern withdrew their last Pacer in November last year, with Great Western withdrawing theirs the following month. Transport for Wales are still using 15 Class 143 2-car sets on the Valley Lines, having been given dispensation to do so until 31 May this year.

While they were pretty rough, I grew quite fond of the Pacers, particularly the riveted body Class 142s, in my last years of commuting. The refurbished ones operating round here were fairly comfortable, and our track is mostly in good enough condition that their nodding donkey characteristics weren't too much of a problem. And from a passenger perspective they seemed to be as reliable as any other train type (although the maintenance folk may not have agreed).

 

Well I could have sworn I saw one at Saltburn last week but I am possibly mistaken.

[David Mack]

7 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

Well I could have sworn I saw one at Saltburn last week but I am possibly mistaken.

 

https://media.northernrailway.co.uk/news/pacers-bid-final-farewell-to-northern-network

Edited March 23, 2021 by David Mack

[Guest]

?

[Mike Todd]

19 hours ago, Athy said:

I'm not familiar with the Pacer train; have I had a lucky escape?

You'd certainly know if you had been on one!

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Mike Todd said:

You'd certainly know if you had been on one!

 

They are were the pinnacle of luxury train travel....................

 

 

Edited March 24, 2021 by The Happy Nomad
Change tense

[Mike Todd]

1 hour ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

They are were the pinnacle of luxury train travel....................

 

 

If it really is/was a pinnacle of travel then you would definitely have remembered travelling on one!

[Alway Swilby]

3 hours ago, Mike Todd said:

You'd certainly know if you had been on one!

To be fair every seat had a view out of the window, unlike some more modern trains.

[fanshaft]

23 hours ago, Mike Todd said:

An alternative view is that since we are unlikely to see the elimination of London as a focal point for certain types of employment, the progressive transfer out to the regions needs good transport and communication in order to catalyse the process. Of course, in time we all may become home workers and hermits with the gradual loss of social interaction but that will probably see out the expected lifetime of HS2 rolling stock!

 

HS2 is not so much about faster links but greater capacity, without it - arguably - journeys into London will become very expensive as demand well outstrips supply.

Should not be either-or.

That is absolutely correct - it's not so much about speed, but about capacity for additional medium speed passenger services and, vitally, for freight , as few freight paths are available on the west coast line which is at or near to capacity and cannot easily be expanded other than at massive cost and disruption over many years. A new line is actually cheaper!   High speed does allow better utilisation of stock and so reduces costs, and it's not so much about London to Birmingham which is only stage one, but the route north west to Manchester, Liverpool and ultimately Scotland and to Sheffield, Leeds and the north east.   I believe part of the old Great Central route is being used, but in general I'm told the former GC alignment doesn't allow for the high speeds envisaged, and utilising it would be much more destructive (much is built on) than the current route which has relatively little impact compared say to the alternative of a six or eight lane motorway.  'Modern Railways' and 'Rail Magazine' are good for in depth commentary and analysis from all points of view.  Commuting is only one part of the railway scene - studies show (as best they can) that while commuting and business  may reduce (at least in the short term) use of rail for leisure will increase massively - we cannot rely on the road network, even one that is massively increased in size to accommodate this - and do we want that?

[ditchcrawler]

17 minutes ago, fanshaft said:

That is absolutely correct - it's not so much about speed, but about capacity for additional medium speed passenger services and, vitally, for freight , as few freight paths are available on the west coast line which is at or near to capacity and cannot easily be expanded other than at massive cost and disruption over many years. A new line is actually cheaper!   High speed does allow better utilisation of stock and so reduces costs, and it's not so much about London to Birmingham which is only stage one, but the route north west to Manchester, Liverpool and ultimately Scotland and to Sheffield, Leeds and the north east.   I believe part of the old Great Central route is being used, but in general I'm told the former GC alignment doesn't allow for the high speeds envisaged, and utilising it would be much more destructive (much is built on) than the current route which has relatively little impact compared say to the alternative of a six or eight lane motorway.  'Modern Railways' and 'Rail Magazine' are good for in depth commentary and analysis from all points of view.  Commuting is only one part of the railway scene - studies show (as best they can) that while commuting and business  may reduce (at least in the short term) use of rail for leisure will increase massively - we cannot rely on the road network, even one that is massively increased in size to accommodate this - and do we want that?

People only see what they want to see

[Victor Vectis]

I don't give a monkey's about all the above!

 

I perferred Euston Square as an oasis of grass and trees rather than as a taxi rank.

I preferred the Bree Louise as an operating pub rather than a memory (in spite of the minging gents and odd dodgy beer)

I prefer the peace and quiet of the Oxford Summit pound as it has been for 200 or so years.

 

(Yes, I am old and I am grumpy. But with just cause, I think)

 

 

ETA Cross posted with the above. I'm talking about the last but one post.

Edited March 24, 2021 by Victor Vectis

[Guest]

If it really only is about capacity why build a line capable of such high speed?

 

How much less would it have cost to simply replicate a line similar to the ECML and WCML?

 

Using existing track and signalling technology and existing rolling stock designs would have been much cheaper surely?

[ditchcrawler]

3 minutes ago, Victor Vectis said:

 )

I prefer the peace and quiet of the Oxford Summit pound as it has been for 200 or so years.

 

 

I didn't realise the motorway had been there that long ?

[Mike Todd]

1 hour ago, Victor Vectis said:

I don't give a monkey's about all the above!

 

I perferred Euston Square as an oasis of grass and trees rather than as a taxi rank.

I preferred the Bree Louise as an operating pub rather than a memory (in spite of the minging gents and odd dodgy beer)

I prefer the peace and quiet of the Oxford Summit pound as it has been for 200 or so years.

 

(Yes, I am old and I am grumpy. But with just cause, I think)

 

 

ETA Cross posted with the above. I'm talking about the last but one post.

Yes, but! There are plenty of established services and places that attract similar comments - like village post offices for example. The trouble is that in many cases the real commitment of people to such folk tradition can be seen in the accounts - ie people want to see them to remind them of a halcyon days of yore and feed them the idea that change is not what they want. There are numerous examples of attempts to maintain a 'community' facility but which, ultimately, end up proving why they closed in the first place.

[LadyG]

On 23/03/2021 at 16:58, Athy said:

I'm not familiar with the Pacer train; have I had a lucky escape?

Yes, the only train I've ever been on that was more uncomfortable was the local Italian train I once used, in1961! The seats were wood, but I think the springs were better than the Pacer. 

Edited March 24, 2021 by LadyG

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, fanshaft said:

   I believe part of the old Great Central route is being used, but in general I'm told the former GC alignment doesn't allow for the high speeds envisaged

The Great Central route was designed for higher speeds than the other main lines of the time and also to continental rolling stock gauge, as part of a plan to link with Europe via the Channel Tunnel proposals of the time.

Its downfall in Beeching's time was partly due to a route that, once it left London, didn't serve any significant settlements until it reached Rugby, and so there was no demand for stopping services. In HS2 terms that would be a positive advantage! 

Reopening has been looked at, but faces too many obstacles. The London Maylebone terminus is full with Chiltern Line services, the land alongside acquired for enlargement having been long built on (including former BW HQ Melbury House). The route has been built on through Leicester, between Leicester and Loughborough it is used by the Great Central (steam) railway (who have aspirations to extend north), in south and central Nottingham the route is used by the tram, with Nottingham Victoria Station now being the Victoria shopping centre, between Sheffield and Manchester the original Woodhead tunnels are in poor condition and sealed up, the 1950s parallel tunnel is now used for HV electric cables.  By the time you have constructed diversions around all the obstacles there isn't that much of the original alignment which can be used.