Buyers Survey: who and how?

[wakey_wake]

Yesterday I put the deposit down on a boat that was beautifully cared for...  until the progress of time sadly brought it to need selling. I need to get it surveyed and check that I'm not letting myself in for more than I expected!

 

The main thing I need to know is how to get a straight, competent and thorough survey (south Midlands / near Napton Junction).

 

Rust in & out is an obvious concern. The hull has not been blacked since 2013 and the stern bay shows hull rust all round the stern gland area. It is on a shoreline with galvanic isolator, and I suspect has been for years. I could find no access to the main bilge, so I might assume the inside of the hull has been unattended for 10+ years. I didn't see any sign of persistent condensation/damp, which is encouraging. Groping underwater, I think I found an anode - sharp and not much of it left. There is also a lot of growth on the hull, also feeling sharp.

 

The broker told me I can't be present while the surveyor works (and suggested meeting afterwards), because COVID and because I'm not insured to go into their dry dock. This was an unpleasant surprise for me, because I was expecting to be alongside asking a lot of questions.

 

Am I constrained to use their dry dock, or could I find a more permissive one? Being uninsured does not bother me, I think it's an exclusion.

Do any surveyors do video chat / livestreaming while working?

Is the broker likely to be actively hiding a serious problem by these constraints? If so, what are the biggest to consider and how could I uncover them?

 

I do expect to do serious refitting work on the boat, including (eventually & slowly) new floor, but I'm not in a position to do it all at once. It has to be a steady project in stages and I need to liveaboard while I'm doing it.

 

I'm sure this is not a new question and on this occasion I confess to jumping in with the deposit before retro-lurking CWDF for advice on surveyors. ?

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, wakey_wake said:

Am I constrained to use their dry dock, or could I find a more permissive one? Being uninsured does not bother me, I think it's an exclusion.

 

Whose boat is it ? (a private owner selling directly, a private owner selling via a broker, or a broker owned boat)

 

If you don;t use the dry-dock where it is how are you going to get it to where ever you decide to have it surveyed ?

Who will take it to the 'new' dry dock', and bring it back ?

Will you pay to have it taken there ?

 

Presumambly YOU are choosing the surveyor not having one forced onto you by the seller / broker ?

 

Some surveyors will let you follow them around and talk to you, others will have a chat and a de-brief when they have finished. Ask your chosen surveyor how he works.

Also check what sort of survey you are getting, there are huge differences in surveys and what a surveyor does (some include engines and gearboxes, some don't, some will open cupboard doors and look inside, some won't)

[haggis]

With Covid, I can understand that a surveyor doesn't want to be in the close confines of a boat with a customer. 

 

haggis

[GRLMK38]

1 hour ago, wakey_wake said:

The broker told me I can't be present while the surveyor works (and suggested meeting afterwards), because COVID and because I'm not insured to go into their dry dock. This was an unpleasant surprise for me, because I was expecting to be alongside asking a lot of questions.

 

Do any surveyors do video chat / livestreaming while working?

Some surveyors will agree to a meeting once the survey is completed, some will insist that you wait for their report.  The amount of work and concentration required during the survey is significant and distractions are likely to lead to things being missed.  When you consider that you are paying for an accurate and comprehensive report why would you want to distract them?

 

A survey involves working out what goes where, why did they do that, this is missing, that is broken, swearing and head scratching all of which could encourage a client to form an opinion that is valid or not.

 

My advice would be to request a post survey meeting for an initial overview by all means (this could be done in the car on the journey home?) but the report is the only thing a surveyor will consider legally binding.  Once you have read the report, why not then request that the broker allows you to walk through the boat to understand what the contents of the report mean in practice.  Alternatively, pay the surveyor for a "guided tour session" as a separate piece of work.

 

Good luck....

[IDS]

For our last survey first surveyor approached said nobody to be present. The next one I approached said it was fine. You'd have to be realistic and keep your distance and let them do their job, especially regarding Covid precautions, but this is all possible, even if only outside the vessel.  It is valuable and instructive to be present and have some interaction with the surveyor when the boat is in front of you.  Especially in relation to hull condition and recommendations about remedial actions. These guys see a lot of boats and the ones I have used are willing to share their observations. You are paying after all, so you can choose.

[wakey_wake]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Whose boat is it ? (a private owner selling directly, a private owner selling via a broker, or a broker owned boat)

The broker's staff told me it is two half-share families selling me the boat. Now I think back, my weasel word detector was not in high gear at this time. ?

 

If it is broker owned, as I understand there are two issues

1. I may be liable to pay VAT, and discover this after the sale; the extra cost would be more than the deposit, survey and my other costs.
2. I may have additional rights of redress against the company which I never discover, and at this point I'm not sure what they would be

and the first sign of (1) will be a clause in the contract stating that it's my liability if there is any, and they will tell me that's standard in all the contracts, and I will cross it out, and there will be an argument; but it's too late for keeping my deposit if that happens.

 

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

If you don;t use the dry-dock where it is how are you going to get it to where ever you decide to have it surveyed ?

Who will take it to the 'new' dry dock', and bring it back ?

Will you pay to have it taken there ?

 

Presumambly YOU are choosing the surveyor not having one forced onto you by the seller / broker ?

I'm choosing the surveyor.

 

I presume that if I reject their (on site) dry dock, I have to find a more permissive one and pay them to cruise it both ways. I haven't checked this with them because I think I'll get closer to the truth here.

 

Because I interpret the "you're not insured so you can't come in" as an excuse to prevent of my involvement (and I could be wrong here), then live video chat with the surveyor looks like a possible way to circumvent that excuse. I'm sure many surveyors would not want to bother, so how to find one that would?

 

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Some surveyors will let you follow them around and talk to you, others will have a chat and a de-brief when they have finished. Ask your chosen surveyor how he works.

Also check what sort of survey you are getting, there are huge differences in surveys and what a surveyor does (some include engines and gearboxes, some don't, some will open cupboard doors and look inside, some won't)

I would rather have a more thorough survey and be able to ask questions going along, because that is a great way for me to learn and also to help the surveyor uncover surprises.

 

I would like the extra kit checked over - the broker would not allow me to "press buttons" so I couldn't do that. I was not expecting a bow thruster, but there it is. The broker did say they may not work and that's why they're not listed. The bow thruster's (24V) battery has been disconnected so I guess it is pancake flat by now, but I would want the tube checking and an attempt to wake both motor.

 

I don't know how I could get the bilge examined, because it seems to be permanently covered over. If there is an access hatch it is well hidden - floor has carpet throughout. When it's mine I can pull up carpet and cut the floorboard if necessary, but that's a little bit late.

 

The main engine started promptly and sounded as happy as a diesel ever does.

 

First buying lesson learned: I should have printed the particulars instead of relying on memory. I had forgotten the generator, so I thought it was an unlisted extra, and therefore did not ask the broker to start it. Missed opportunity.

 

Fitout lesson learned: hiding stuff may be against the RCD. but it could help you get a better price if the boat is neglected when you sell.  ?

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, wakey_wake said:

The bow thruster's (24V) battery has been disconnected so I guess it is pancake flat by now, but I would want the tube checking and an attempt to wake both motor.

 

No surveyor will attempt to try anything that is not connected.

It could be disconnected because it is in a dangerous condition, so the survey will simply say "couldn't test XYZ as it was not connected", this will also apply to any gas appliances if the gas is not connected ot the cylinder is empty.

[wakey_wake]

1 hour ago, haggis said:

With Covid, I can understand that a surveyor doesn't want to be in the close confines of a boat with a customer.

Sure, but standing outside and talking through the side hatch? I believe the COVID risk can be minimised to nothing.

 

34 minutes ago, GRLMK38 said:

[...]  The amount of work and concentration required during the survey is significant and distractions are likely to lead to things being missed.  When you consider that you are paying for an accurate and comprehensive report why would you want to distract them?

 

[...] Once you have read the report, why not then request that the broker allows you to walk through the boat to understand what the contents of the report mean in practice.  Alternatively, pay the surveyor for a "guided tour session" as a separate piece of work.

"Guided tour session" is a new option to ask about, thank you. However I presume that any questions I have at that point are too late for the surveyor to go back and look at things?

 

Distraction is something I can cause, and it's fair warning that I really don't want to do that! However if I could find a surveyor who is confident in working more interactively, that seems good to me.

 

 

14 minutes ago, IDS said:

For our last survey first surveyor approached said nobody to be present. The next one I approached said it was fine.

If it was the surveyor's choice, that would sit better with me. Being the broker's imposed restriction I am more suspicious.

@IDS could you make a specific recommendation please? PM is also good if you prefer.

 

14 minutes ago, IDS said:

You'd have to be realistic and keep your distance and let them do their job, especially regarding Covid precautions, but this is all possible, even if only outside the vessel.  It is valuable and instructive to be present and have some interaction with the surveyor when the boat is in front of you.  Especially in relation to hull condition and recommendations about remedial actions. These guys see a lot of boats and the ones I have used are willing to share their observations. You are paying after all, so you can choose.

This is my line of thinking - it's good to hear I'm not completely wrong. ?

 

[TheBiscuits]

20 minutes ago, wakey_wake said:

I interpret the "you're not insured so you can't come in" as an excuse to prevent of my involvement (and I could be wrong here)

 

It's usually "We are not insured so you can't come in" and it's from the dry dock's liability insurance.

 

A lot of dry docks started enforcing this sort of rule after a customer fell from height and was killed at one a few years back.   The yard where it happened were held liable for the death despite the circumstances of the accident.

 

 

 

 

[wakey_wake]

12 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

No surveyor will attempt to try anything that is not connected.

It could be disconnected because it is in a dangerous condition, so the survey will simply say "couldn't test XYZ as it was not connected", this will also apply to any gas appliances if the gas is not connected ot the cylinder is empty.

On the one hand that makes sense - just like not pulling up the floor to see the hidden bilge. On the other hand, it allows sellers to perform a denial of service attack on the buyer's surveyor by disconnecting stuff.

 

Somebody's got to reconnect it at some point, especially for the listed/included appliances. So how to have a more technically competent person do this instead of leaving it to a newbie?

 

I like to think I'm somewhere in between, depending on context. I'm confident that I could borrow a pair of 12V batteries and a 500A fuse (I don't recall seeing a fuse) and connect them, but I doubt the broker would allow that. Maybe it's worth asking to contact the seller...

 

 

5 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

It's usually "We are not insured so you can't come in" and it's from the dry dock's liability insurance.

 

A lot of dry docks started enforcing this sort of rule after a customer fell from height and was killed at one a few years back.   The yard where it happened were held liable for the death despite the circumstances of the accident.

This also makes sense, but the practical solution is a waiver. "I'm aware that dry docks are hazardous places. I will take full responsibility for my safety. Squiggle."

 

There could then be the aspect of me causing an accident which hurts the surveyor or other staff. What kind of insurance or promise could I give over that? "Der rubbernecken sightseeren keepen das cottonpicken händer in das pockets muss."

 

 

Well ultimately I should remember that if I can get an OK & habitable hull for this price, I've done alright.

[matty40s]

Virtually all the surveyors I have seen work on the principle of do the survey themselves, and arrange an approximate time for the buyer to come and have a chat/walk through at the end of the process. 

This can and has happened in a Covid safe way for the last year as well.

Problems occur when the buyer turns up early, or even at the start, with questions galore and putting the surveyor off.

One surveyor got so exasperated a couple of years ago,  he told the buyer to go and sit in the car and wait to the end. The buyer stood there and said "I'm your customer, I will do as I want".

Surveyor packed up and drive off. It was another month before another surveyor would/could come, and additional lift out fee on top.

[Alan de Enfield]

10 minutes ago, wakey_wake said:

Somebody's got to reconnect it at some point, especially for the listed/included appliances. So how to have a more technically competent person do this instead of leaving it to a newbie?

 

I like to think I'm somewhere in between, depending on context. I'm confident that I could borrow a pair of 12V batteries and a 500A fuse (I don't recall seeing a fuse) and connect them, but I doubt the broker would allow that. Maybe it's worth asking to contact the seller...

 

Just remember, its not your boat.

You connect up (say) the gas to check the cooker works, there is a leak in the pipe (which you do not notice) and the bilge fills with gas, you go to connect up the battery and your spanner touches the side of the boat.

 

When (if) you wake up in hospital blinded and with some of your extremities missing, and, you have a solicititors letter presented to you for the costs of restitution of a boat and 'half a boat yard' you might just realise why you are not allowed to just connect up random things.

Edited March 18, 2021 by Alan de Enfield

[wakey_wake]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Just remember, its not your boat.

You connect up (say) the gas to check the cooker works, there is a leak in the pipe (which you do not notice) and the bilge fills with gas, you go to connect up the battery and your spanner touches the side of the boat. [ ? ]

I know there are various ways to cause immense damage - one reason I don't want LPG or petrol on my boat long term. I know it's not my boat. Also not my dry dock. So I'm quite limited in how I can uncover surprises - even at rather a disadvantage if the brokers are knowingly hiding something.

 

That's why I asked,

So how to have a more technically competent person do this instead of leaving it to a newbie?

 

It's one thing to know why not to do a thing. It is more useful to know the correct way to get it done.

[GRLMK38]

6 minutes ago, matty40s said:

Virtually all the surveyors I have seen work on the principle of do the survey themselves, and arrange an approximate time for the buyer to come and have a chat/walk through at the end of the process. 

This can and has happened in a Covid safe way for the last year as well.

Problems occur when the buyer turns up early, or even at the start, with questions galore and putting the surveyor off.

One surveyor got so exasperated a couple of years ago,  he told the buyer to go and sit in the car and wait to the end. The buyer stood there and said "I'm your customer, I will do as I want".

Surveyor packed up and drive off. It was another month before another surveyor would/could come, and additional lift out fee on top.

 

Agreed. 

 

The boating world is like no other industry I have ever worked in.  If you take your car to a professional garage for service or repair you wouldn't expect to be in the workshop while they work on it but you would have things explained to you over the phone or at the time of collection.  I guess the difference is that people are familiar with cars and they all come with a user manual....

 

@wakey_wake your point about "denial of service" is an interesting one and I guess some owners could try it on.  My response to that would be to make a revised offer based on the fact that x,y and z would have to be replaced or professionally inspected to prove it works and that comes at a cost.  You would then find either the owner plugs everything back in or has to admit that it is faulty/dangerous.

[gatekrash]

13 minutes ago, matty40s said:

Virtually all the surveyors I have seen work on the principle of do the survey themselves, and arrange an approximate time for the buyer to come and have a chat/walk through at the end of the process. 

This can and has happened in a Covid safe way for the last year as well.

 

 

This is exactly what I would expect on any boat I've ever have surveyed (with the exception of the 25 year survey on my lumpy water boat, where I wanted him to know the osmosis had been there for the last 12 years ? ). Even then I stayed out of the way afterwards.

 

When we had our boat surveyed last year I fully expected not to meet the surveyor until he was nearly done, he needed to concentrate on the job at hand not have me in the way. We arrived, let him know we were having a cup of tea sat in the car and said come and find us when he was ready. Then we had a chat for about half an hour to go over anything he thought relevant and to ask any questions. He basically ran through all the notes he'd taken at the time. If I wanted him to show me something I didn't understand then he already knew where it was / how it worked etc.

[wakey_wake]

2 minutes ago, GRLMK38 said:

 

@wakey_wake your point about "denial of service" is an interesting one and I guess some owners could try it on.  My response to that would be to make a revised offer based on the fact that x,y and z would have to be replaced or professionally inspected to prove it works and that comes at a cost.  You would then find either the owner plugs everything back in or has to admit that it is faulty/dangerous.

Another lesson learned: there are things to be bartered before putting the deposit down, because after that point the buyer loses a lot of negotiation power.

Reconnection (for the purpose of surveying) of listed or unlisted items should have been among them. For the deposit I made yesterday it's probably too late.

 

Where to collect these lessons?

[TheBiscuits]

16 minutes ago, wakey_wake said:

This also makes sense, but the practical solution is a waiver. "I'm aware that dry docks are hazardous places. I will take full responsibility for my safety. Squiggle."

 

You can ask if you like.  If their liability insurance does not allow members of the public in their dry dock they'll either repeat that you can't go in or just shrug and cancel your booked slot.

 

If you really want a walkaround the boat with a surveyor get it craned or slipped onto hardstanding instead of using the dry dock.  The surveyor might not be comfortable with you being up close because of covid though, which is a different issue.

[Graham Davis]

20 minutes ago, wakey_wake said:

 

This also makes sense, but the practical solution is a waiver. "I'm aware that dry docks are hazardous places. I will take full responsibility for my safety. Squiggle."

 

 

Sorry, but those words are meaningless. You cannot take responsibility for your own safety when you are on someone else's property. They are always liable.

[GRLMK38]

2 minutes ago, wakey_wake said:

Another lesson learned: there are things to be bartered before putting the deposit down, because after that point the buyer loses a lot of negotiation power.

Reconnection (for the purpose of surveying) of listed or unlisted items should have been among them. For the deposit I made yesterday it's probably too late.

 

Where to collect these lessons?

 

I'm sure you appreciate that you will need to consider the terms of the offer made, that is generally defined by the broker's contract.  Even "subject to survey" is likely to have some conditions attached.

[wakey_wake]

2 minutes ago, Graham Davis said:

Sorry, but those words are meaningless. You cannot take responsibility for your own safety when you are on someone else's property. They are always liable.

OK...  but I've seen constructs like that in the context of horse riding and go-karting establishments, where they have you acknowledge the danger before partaking in the activity. This is different because it's not aimed at the general public, but "they are always liable" looks odd next to the practice at go-karting rinks. 

 

I would expect that the possibility of me causing harm to others, by being present, is a  preventative which is harder for me to remove.

 

 

5 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

If you really want a walkaround the boat with a surveyor get it craned or slipped onto hardstanding instead of using the dry dock.  The surveyor might not be comfortable with you being up close because of covid though, which is a different issue.

Presumably more expensive? But it's another option, thanks for mentioning the distinction.

 

I'm OK with "Can I stand over here and watch? Let me know when you're ready for questions".

[ditchcrawler]

35 minutes ago, wakey_wake said:

 

Somebody's got to reconnect it at some point, especially for the listed/included appliances. So how to have a more technically competent person do this instead of leaving it to a newbie?

 

I would take the view its Knackered and if I buy the boat I will have to pay someone to test, repair and reconnect it.

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, wakey_wake said:

Presumably more expensive? But it's another option, thanks for mentioning the distinction.

 

 

The method of taking the boat out of the water will not be your choice - it would depend on which marina / boat yeard you choice to have the survey done

 

Some have a dry dock

Many have a trailer (drive down a slipway, drive boat on, pull trailer up the slip, do survay, reverse back into the water)

Some have a hoist

Few have a crane

 

 

 A hoist lifting us out., then a trailer.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 18, 2021 by Alan de Enfield

[matty40s]

18 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

You can ask if you like.  If their liability insurance does not allow members of the public in their dry dock they'll either repeat that you can't go in or just shrug and cancel your booked slot.

 

If you really want a walkaround the boat with a surveyor get it craned or slipped onto hardstanding instead of using the dry dock.  The surveyor might not be comfortable with you being up close because of covid though, which is a different issue.

I also think Covid is key here. Most marinas and boatyards have had to change the relaxed way they work and allow people to wander in and around during this pandemic. Most will have had some plan to protect workers and moorers.

There are still some folks who just come wandering into the workshop without a mask and walk up to you wanting to discuss the time of day or next year's blacking slot....still some liveaboards who get put out when asked to stay somewhere else or rebook later in the year.

We kicked a tool supplier off site for repeatedly coming in without a mask during lockdown, he was warned once, final warning then told to F$&£ off....permanently.

[Graham Davis]

1 minute ago, wakey_wake said:

OK...  but I've seen constructs like that in the context of horse riding and go-karting establishments, where they have you acknowledge the danger before partaking in the activity. This is different because it's not aimed at the general public, but "they are always liable" looks odd next to the practice at go-karting rinks. 

 

I would expect that the possibility of me causing harm to others, by being present, is a  preventative which is harder for me to remove.

 

 

Presumably more expensive? But it's another option, thanks for mentioning the distinction.

 

I'm OK with "Can I stand over here and watch? Let me know when you're ready for questions".

 

As someone involved in motor sport safety I can tell you that those waivers at karting venues have been proved useless numerous times, often very expensively. 

[MrsM]

1 hour ago, gatekrash said:

 

This is exactly what I would expect on any boat I've ever have surveyed (with the exception of the 25 year survey on my lumpy water boat, where I wanted him to know the osmosis had been there for the last 12 years ? ). Even then I stayed out of the way afterwards.

 

When we had our boat surveyed last year I fully expected not to meet the surveyor until he was nearly done, he needed to concentrate on the job at hand not have me in the way. We arrived, let him know we were having a cup of tea sat in the car and said come and find us when he was ready. Then we had a chat for about half an hour to go over anything he thought relevant and to ask any questions. He basically ran through all the notes he'd taken at the time. If I wanted him to show me something I didn't understand then he already knew where it was / how it worked etc.

Our survey last year was very much like this. Our boat was towed out onto hardstanding for the survey and blacking. It worked out well and our surveyor spent a good amount of time going through his findings and some specific concerns we had. He gave us a verbal report on the spot and then a written report within 24 hours. 

Edited March 18, 2021 by MrsM