Bad experience blacking at Marina

[EdwardMeades]

Just posting here as an outlet and to vent.

 

I really dislike confronting people, and having to call people out, unfortunately I have spent the last two days doing exactly that.

 

I arranged for a premium blacking service with my home Marina. I live aboard but work full time, so figured this would be the best option.

 

They sent me a nice looking scope of work that told me they would pressure wash, inspect, go over entire surface with a hand grinder, wipe down, inspection from yard manager, before applying blacking. The cost for this was 891 quid.

 

I got my pressure wash, and they recommended rewelding an anode that had come away, and welding sone additional chine near the swims that was missing (looks like the boat was built this way). Great I thought, sounds promising. 

 

After three days on the yard I had not heard anything. After I went into the office to ask when work woukd start, they made a call and someone turned up 10 minutes later. Great I thought, I know how busy these guys can be.

 

Unfortunate the bloke they sent just wanted to slap the blacking on. He had no clue about the scope of work, he said they had never done any hand grinding on any of the boats they black. I politely said this was the service I paid for, and what I expected. He got the yard manager involved and they agreed to go over with the grinder. He had also forgotten about the welding which I had to ask for again.

 

Great I thought, maybe just a communication issue.

 

He spent 30 minutes grinding the top half of the boat above the water line. Conveniently he stopped at 16:50 and said he was finished. I pointed out the bottom half of the boat, and asked if he planned on finishing this tomorrow. I also pointed out several areas of flakey bitumem/ scale he had missed, picking it off with my finger nail as I showed him.He walked off without answering.

 

Great I thought, this is going to be awkward.

 

The next morning at 0800 I went out to find him merrily painting away.

 

This is where it started to get really uncomfortable. I called him out on not finishing the grinding. He looked my straight on the eye and said he'd done every inch. I know for a fact he did not do below the water line, and did not do the swim, rudder or supports below the rudder. He had not wiped the dust and grim away from his minimal grinding. I told him I knew all of this because I'd watched him doing it! To top it off he was now painting at 0800 and the boat was wet with condensation.

 

Once more the yard manager came to have a look.  He took over the grinding, attacked sone of the tougher shake with a hammer and did a better job. At this point I'm happy with the surface preparation, but the boat is still soaking wet. As I'm talking to the yard manager, the first bloke starts painting away again. I tell them that I've had enough and to pack up, and that I will be doing the blacking.

 

TLDR, was prepared to pay for blacking, had to supervise the work, constantly battling them to do the work they told me they would, got sick of them doing a piss poor job and canceled them.

 

Not sure if I should mention which Marina I'm in, but plenty of other have had issues with them and I'm on Middlewich branch.

[Mad Harold]

11 minutes ago, EdwardMeades said:

Just posting here as an outlet and to vent.

 

I really dislike confronting people, and having to call people out, unfortunately I have spent the last two days doing exactly that.

 

I arranged for a premium blacking service with my home Marina. I live aboard but work full time, so figured this would be the best option.

 

They sent me a nice looking scope of work that told me they would pressure wash, inspect, go over entire surface with a hand grinder, wipe down, inspection from yard manager, before applying blacking. The cost for this was 891 quid.

 

I got my pressure wash, and they recommended rewelding an anode that had come away, and welding sone additional chine near the swims that was missing (looks like the boat was built this way). Great I thought, sounds promising. 

 

After three days on the yard I had not heard anything. After I went into the office to ask when work woukd start, they made a call and someone turned up 10 minutes later. Great I thought, I know how busy these guys can be.

 

Unfortunate the bloke they sent just wanted to slap the blacking on. He had no clue about the scope of work, he said they had never done any hand grinding on any of the boats they black. I politely said this was the service I paid for, and what I expected. He got the yard manager involved and they agreed to go over with the grinder. He had also forgotten about the welding which I had to ask for again.

 

Great I thought, maybe just a communication issue.

 

He spent 30 minutes grinding the top half of the boat above the water line. Conveniently he stopped at 16:50 and said he was finished. I pointed out the bottom half of the boat, and asked if he planned on finishing this tomorrow. I also pointed out several areas of flakey bitumem/ scale he had missed, picking it off with my finger nail as I showed him.He walked off without answering.

 

Great I thought, this is going to be awkward.

 

The next morning at 0800 I went out to find him merrily painting away.

 

This is where it started to get really uncomfortable. I called him out on not finishing the grinding. He looked my straight on the eye and said he'd done every inch. I know for a fact he did not do below the water line, and did not do the swim, rudder or supports below the rudder. He had not wiped the dust and grim away from his minimal grinding. I told him I knew all of this because I'd watched him doing it! To top it off he was now painting at 0800 and the boat was wet with condensation.

 

Once more the yard manager came to have a look.  He took over the grinding, attacked sone of the tougher shake with a hammer and did a better job. At this point I'm happy with the surface preparation, but the boat is still soaking wet. As I'm talking to the yard manager, the first bloke starts painting away again. I tell them that I've had enough and to pack up, and that I will be doing the blacking.

 

TLDR, was prepared to pay for blacking, had to supervise the work, constantly battling them to do the work they told me they would, got sick of them doing a piss poor job and canceled them.

 

Not sure if I should mention which Marina I'm in, but plenty of other have had issues with them and I'm on Middlewich branch.

A sorry tale.I do sympathise.

To avoid trouble,if anyone asks which yard,it may be best to send them a PM.

[Alan de Enfield]

 

The problem you have is that no one should 'black' at this time of year unless in a heated dry-dock.

 

You should know not to book it in until (preferably) May, and the people doing the blacking should tell you that anyway, they will no doubt just be glad to get your £1000 and hope they get the repeat job later this year when it 'falls-off' and can charge you again.

 

It is worth asking for recommendations before booking anything 'boaty', for example the compnay I have used will not take any blacking bookings for before the end of April.

 

Unfortunately there are many canal businesses that work the same way.

 

Hopefully they can rectify the situation for you (but obviously can do nothing about the dew-point)

Edited March 18, 2021 by Alan de Enfield

[Higgs]

Sounds like a bad experience. I've worked at two boat yards and blacked other peoples' boats. Because I know it's a crappy job, I never let anyone do mine. I wouldn't be happy with the service you had. Not sure whether you had your boat in a dry dock, but some are sumps for cold air, and condensation is a problem during cold spells. It can take a great deal of heating, to drive the moisture from the hull. 

 

Yeah - recommendations are a good way to go. 

 

 

Edited March 18, 2021 by Higgs

[EdwardMeades]

8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

The problem you have is that no one should 'black' at this time of year unless in a heated dry-dock.

 

You should know not to book it in until (preferably) May, and the people doing the blacking should tell you that anyway, they will no doubt just be glad to get your £1000 and hope they get the repeat job later this year when it 'falls-off' and can charge you again.

 

It is worth asking for recommendations before booking anything 'boaty', for example the compnay I have used will not take any blacking bookings for before the end of April.

 

Unfortunately there are many canal businesses that work the same way.

 

Hopefully they can rectify the situation for you (but obviously can do nothing about the dew-point)

 

Just very disappointed that they are advertising a premium service, and then providing a very poor one.

 

Regarding temperatures it was a pleasant 15 degrees yesterday and the hull was bone dry. Obviously not warm to the touch but I'm not in a rush to get it finished. I will pick and choose when to get the coats on.

[Bee]

Grinding is a strange thing to suggest, old bitumen just renders most discs pretty useless. The most important bit is below the water anyway. I have sanded my own boat below the waterline, took ages, horrible job, underneath as well, many sanding discs and a well worn sander, that was for epoxy though and I can't see a yard wanting to do it. I share your feelings about confrontation but I think the yard sounds like a bunch of cowboys.

[BEngo]

I would never suggest grinding old bitumen.  As Bee says, it just clogs the discs.A good going over with a 9 inch angle grinder and a wire brush is much better.  If used properly it will get the hard rust the pressure washer can't tackle and flicks any remaining loose bitumen off.

 

N

[Richard10002]

17 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

You should know not to book it in until (preferably) May

No..... he shouldnt!!!

 

Not everybody knows as much as Alan, (de Enfield), and we should be able to rely on a yard to tell us if we are asking them to do something that is not advisable... end of!!!

 

I have had many experiences where I have discussed doing a job with a tradesman, and they have told me that it shouldn't be done the way I am suggesting, or that the timing isn't right.

 

This bunch are obviously cowboys, with no intention of doing the job to the specification agreed to and, unfortunately, Edward has learned the hard way.

 

I nearly learned the hard way, when I had been seriously ill in the UK and my boat needed antifouling in Malta in 2009. Fortunately, over email, I recognised some things that didn't seem right, after they had lifted the boat at the local yard, but hadn't started the job. I sacked them, instructed the yard to not allow them to have the keys to the boat, got myself out of my sick bed, flew out, and did it myself. While I was painting away, I was told by an employee of the firm that they were notorious for thinning the antifoul, and not putting as many coats on as agreed, amongst other things - a lucky escape, and a proper job got done.

 

Recommendation is always a good thing but, if you are out of the water in your marina's yard, it is hard not to take the easy route and ask them to do it.

[pearley]

Many years ago we had our blacking done in Skipton in March. Not so much a drydock but rather a large four post lift under cover. 

 

3 months later rust started to appear in the centre of the boat along the waterline. Phoned the boatyard, full of apologies and booked us back for the late summer to be redone, free of charge. Second time they took rotary wire brush to the hull after pressure wash.

 

Good service.

[ditchcrawler]

I would say it was very lucky the OP was there. I have passed a boat on a slipway being blacked, they moored behind me that night.

[blackrose]

Given the time and energy you've spent watching these guys doing a slapdash job you may as well have done it yourself.

 

Nobody loves your boat like you do and most yards don't do a very good job of blacking which is why I always do my own work where I can. 

 

[David Mack]

With most blacking products you need to first clean off any loose previous coating and rust, allow the hull to dry completely, allow 24 hours between coats and at least 48 hours after the last coat before putting back in the water. That makes it tight to do the job properly in a week. More so if other work has to be fitted in around the blacking, especially if the areas worked on then need blacking too.

Yet some yards seem to offer a 3 or 4 day out-and-in service.

Edited March 18, 2021 by David Mack

[Stilllearning]

19 minutes ago, David Mack said:

With most blacking products you need to first clean off any loose previous coating and rust, allow the hull to dry completely, allow 24 hours between coats and at least 48 hours after the last coat before putting back in the water. That makes it tight to do the job properly in a week. More so if other work has to be fitted in around the blacking, especially if the areas worked on then need blacking too.

Yet some yards seem to offer a 3 or 4 day out-and-in service.

The only drawback with that ideal scenario for blacking is what percentage of a boatyard’s customers would pay the roughly trebled cost?

[Richard10002]

14 minutes ago, Stilllearning said:

The only drawback with that ideal scenario for blacking is what percentage of a boatyard’s customers would pay the roughly trebled cost?

 

Not as many..... but that is not really an excuse for misrepresenting the job they are actually going to do.

 

 

[TheBiscuits]

27 minutes ago, David Mack said:

With most blacking products you need to first clean off any loose previous coating and rust, allow the hull to dry completely, allow 24 hours between coats and at least 48 hours after the last coat before putting back in the water. That makes it tight to do the job properly in a week. More so if other work has to be fitted in around the blacking, especially if the areas worked on then need blacking too.

Yet some yards seem to offer a 3 or 4 day out-and-in service.

 

Yep, that's how I do it usually.

 

Day 1: enter drydock, wash, scrape, cupbrush.

Day 2: first coat

Day 3: second coat

Days 4-6: any other jobs while in the dock.

Day 7: exit drydock.

 

It does help that I prefer Wigan drydock - you can only enter and exit on Friday mornings so you have to wait the full week.

 

5 minutes ago, Stilllearning said:

The only drawback with that ideal scenario for blacking is what percentage of a boatyard’s customers would pay the roughly trebled cost?

 

Why would 7 days in a dry dock cost three times as much as 4 days?  There's no extra work being done in those extra three days.

[Stilllearning]

10 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Yep, that's how I do it usually.

 

Day 1: enter drydock, wash, scrape, cupbrush.

Day 2: first coat

Day 3: second coat

Days 4-6: any other jobs while in the dock.

Day 7: exit drydock.

 

It does help that I prefer Wigan drydock - you can only enter and exit on Friday mornings so you have to wait the full week.

 

 

Why would 7 days in a dry dock cost three times as much as 4 days?  There's no extra work being done in those extra three days.

Four days is longer than most boats are given, in most docks, in my experience.

[Dave_P]

9 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Yep, that's how I do it usually.

 

Day 1: enter drydock, wash, scrape, cupbrush.

Day 2: first coat

Day 3: second coat

Days 4-6: any other jobs while in the dock.

Day 7: exit drydock.

 

It does help that I prefer Wigan drydock - you can only enter and exit on Friday mornings so you have to wait the full week.

 

 

Why would 7 days in a dry dock cost three times as much as 4 days?  There's no extra work being done in those extra three days.

Much the same for me.  I'm currently on the slipway and due back in tomorrow.  I know it's early in the year but the last of the blacking went on Sunday afternoon and it's been a mild week.  Covid cancellations meant a very cheap slipway came available at the last minute so i took it.

 

My first blacking experience was quite similar to the OPs.  I got a well regarded boatyard to do it while I was out at work. It went up the slip, was blacked and back in the water approx 48 hours later.  I didn't know any better back then.  Predictably, they'd done an awful job and the blacking must have been still wet when it went in, as the weed hatch had glued itself shut.  I raised it with the yard and got a shrug and "well we're busy, what do you expect?".  Needless to say I would never go back.

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, Stilllearning said:

Four days is longer than most boats are given, in most docks, in my experience.

 

You have obvioulsy not much experience of any 'proper' boat yards. Every one I have used has always been an 'in on a Friday morning and out on a Friday morning'

 

Then a agenda pretty much as Biscuits lays out - except a 3rd coat on day 4 or 5 , and an extra  'hand brush painting' in all the nooks & crannys'  (up the weed hole, around all the joints and angles, on the rubbing strakes etc)

[Higgs]

I would use the seven-day period. But wouldn't start blacking until the third day. Two days to dry, from the jet wash, and scraping what needs scraping, up until the third day. Floating on the Monday (Monday to Monday), after three of four coats of blacking. During the hot seasons, it is easy enough to get two coats on in a day. Keep layers moderately thin, so the layers have time to dry. If blacking goes brown, after re-floating a boat, the boat went in too soon. The other obvious sign would be an oil slick at the waterline.

 

 

Edited March 18, 2021 by Higgs

[Bee]

Care of one's bottom is possibly the most important maintanence that boat owners do. I've always done the job myself, I'm lucky, I don't mind doing it, I have the time and I am fit enough, others don't have the choice. The last two times it was lifted out and If possible I would not bother with a wet/dry dock again. You need time, weather and emergency days for that worn shaft, thin bit, cracked prop, mangled skin fitting and as much paint drying time as possible, knowing that you have to be out in two days but the rain has not stopped for a week is no good. It seems that time spent sitting on hard standing is less than time spent in a horrible dock and a bit of plastic sheeting can keep the rain off anyway. 

[JamesFrance]

4 hours ago, EdwardMeades said:

 

Not sure if I should mention which Marina I'm in, but plenty of other have had issues with them and I'm on Middlewich branch.

There is Aqueduct and Venetian, or possibly Barbridge.   I am in one of them so hoping not the one referred to.

[Dave_P]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

You have obvioulsy not much experience of any 'proper' boat yards. Every one I have used has always been an 'in on a Friday morning and out on a Friday morning'

 

Then a agenda pretty much as Biscuits lays out - except a 3rd coat on day 4 or 5 , and an extra  'hand brush painting' in all the nooks & crannys'  (up the weed hole, around all the joints and angles, on the rubbing strakes etc)

Depends on your definition of a proper boatyard.  The bad experience I described above was very much at a very well established and very highly regarded boatyard.  Try ringing round a few and you'll find that friday to friday is very much the exception rather than the rule these days.  Mosty boatyards just want you in and out as quickly as possible.  Why do one boat a week when you can do three?

[blackrose]

3 hours ago, David Mack said:

 

Yet some yards seem to offer a 3 or 4 day out-and-in service.

 

Exactly, so you know from the outset they're not doing it properly.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Dave_P said:

Depends on your definition of a proper boatyard.  The bad experience I described above was very much at a very well established and very highly regarded boatyard.  Try ringing round a few and you'll find that friday to friday is very much the exception rather than the rule these days.  Mosty boatyards just want you in and out as quickly as possible.  Why do one boat a week when you can do three?

 

Well they wouldn't saty in business very long if they relied on my business. I've neve had a problem finding a 7-day blacking yard.

 

One of the best being :

Undercover, you can stay on board, shoreline hook-up, water, toilets and any work done that you want.

 

 

[Dave_P]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Well they wouldn't saty in business very long if they relied on my business. I've neve had a problem finding a 7-day blacking yard.

 

One of the best being :

Undercover, you can stay on board, shoreline hook-up, water, toilets and any work done that you want.

 

 

Yes, I found one similar.  They're out there if you look.  I expect the marinas rely on their moorers not bothering to look elsewhere.