ICE to run on hydrogen?

[ditchcrawler]

 

[cuthound]

I thought ice was already 2/3rds hydrogen. If they put any more in it the cubes will float out of the glass. ?

[ditchcrawler]

13 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

 

I wonder if it will end up like the canal boat in Birmingham with brambles growing all over it?

[Ronaldo47]

As has been noted, the problem with Hydrogen is that it is a very light gas, and so needs a considerably larger storage  volume for a given amount of energy than any other fuel. The latest (May 2021) issue of Modern Railways includes a piece by an experienced railway engineer comparing the range of a hypothetical hydrogen (and other types of) powered loco of the same dimensions and power as an original Deltic diesel loco, and concluded that for  compressed hydrogen gas it was around 105 miles tops with an 8 coach train. Of course, range would not be a problem for a shunter: it's a case of horses for courses, and hydrogen is not ideal horse (power)  for transport's Grand National.

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, Ronaldo47 said:

As has been noted, the problem with Hydrogen is that it is a very light gas, and so needs a considerably larger storage  volume for a given amount of energy than any other fuel. The latest (May 2021) issue of Modern Railways includes a piece by an experienced railway engineer comparing the range of a hypothetical hydrogen (and other types of) powered loco of the same dimensions and power as an original Deltic diesel loco, and concluded that for  compressed hydrogen gas it was around 105 miles tops with an 8 coach train. Of course, range would not be a problem for a shunter: it's a case of horses for courses, and hydrogen is not ideal horse (power)  for transport's Grand National.

It also needs tested pressure vessel to store it and it does like to crack metals and leak, not ideal. Then of course its the amount of energy to produce it 

[ditchcrawler]

There was a bit on Radio 4 about making carbon free steel using hydrogen from renewable sources, then that said we would need three times as much electrical capacity that we have now to produce it

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000v9tl

[Ronaldo47]

Thanks for the podcast link. What I found revealing is that 40% of Sweden's electricity comes from nuclear, 40% from hydro, and only 20% from other green sources such as wind.  This means that 80% of their electricity comes from reliable, dependable, sources that are unaffected by the vagarities of the weather or sunshine. The large amount of conventional generating capacity will also mean they.are less likely to suffer the sort of blackout large parts of the UK had last year when sudden loss of a large  renewable source meant that the remaining conventional generators were unable to maintain frequency within specified limits, resulting in numerous other green sources also tripping.

 

Quite a different scenario from the one the UK government seems to be  heading for, namely to rely as much as possible on inherently unreliable renewable sources like wind and solar, backed up with massive banks of batteries (possibly including the batteries of motorists' electric cars via their smart chargers according to some proposals) with the attendant waste  of energy that always happens in any charge/discharge cycle, to keep the grid going when the wind drops and the sun goes in.  Essentially continuous manufacturing proccesses like steel, need a reliable source of energy that will not die part way through a cycle of operation.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 25, 2021 by Ronaldo47
typos

[ditchcrawler]

11 minutes ago, Ronaldo47 said:

Thanks for the podcast link. What I found revealing is that 40% of Sweden's electricity comes from nuclear, 40% from hydro, and only 20% from other green sources such as wind.  This means that 80% of their electricity comes from reliable, dependable, sources that are unaffected by the vagarities of the weather or sunshine.

 

Quite a different scenario from the one the UK government seems to be  heading for, namely to rely as much as possible on inherently unreliable renewable sources like wind and solar, backed up with massive banks of batteries (possibly including the batteries of motorists' electric cars via their smart chargers according to some proposals) with the attendant waste  of energy that always happens in any charge/discharge cycle, to keep the grid going when the wind drops and the sun goes in.  Essentially continuous manufacturing proccesses like steel, need a reliable source of energy that will not die part way through a cycle of operation.

 

 

 

 

 

They are also installing  mini diesel power stations, there is one planned for Lowestoft 

 

[Ronaldo47]

So is "flexible power generation facility" a euphemism for "diesel generator"?

[peterboat]

10 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

They are also installing  mini diesel power stations, there is one planned for Lowestoft 

 

 

4 minutes ago, Ronaldo47 said:

So is "flexible power generation facility" a euphemism for "diesel generator"?

Rolls Royce are also planning mini nuclear power stations dotted around the country 

[ditchcrawler]

14 minutes ago, Ronaldo47 said:

So is "flexible power generation facility" a euphemism for "diesel generator"?

Yes

[peterboat]

1 minute ago, ditchcrawler said:

Yes

Looks like its batteries as well?

[ditchcrawler]

3 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Looks like its batteries as well?

This is the company that applied for the permission https://conradenergy.co.uk/

[mark99]

1 hour ago, Ronaldo47 said:

So is "flexible power generation facility" a euphemism for "diesel generator"?

 

No. Could be natural gas or gas oil. Substitute fossil fuel for diesel. It's there for when wind, solar and other  generations let the side down wrt to peak demands. Maybe used two or four hours per day in winter (mainly) for peak shaving.

 

Having been involved in 32 power stations across the uk take it from me. It keeps the lights on.

Edited April 25, 2021 by mark99

[ditchcrawler]

9 minutes ago, mark99 said:

 

No. Could be natural gas or gas oil. Substitute fossil fuel for diesel. It's there for when wind, solar and other  generations let the side down wrt to peak demands. Maybe used two or four hours per day in winter (mainly) for peak shaving.

 

Having been involved in 32 power stations across the uk take it from me. It keeps the lights on.

I feel sure the Lowestoft one is diesel, I did read though the full plans some time ago plus a battery bank

[mark99]

10 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I feel sure the Lowestoft one is diesel, I did read though the full plans some time ago plus a battery bank

Yes quite possible. But the op said "substitute diesel for flexible". Which is not quite correct.

 

It's counter- intuative possibly but the "bad fossil fuel" does help us get more benefit from wind, solar and battery banks. By providing a fig leaf generation augmentation  when they (they renewables) fail to keep pace at peak times.

Edited April 25, 2021 by mark99

[George and Dragon]

On 25/04/2021 at 19:28, peterboat said:

Looks like its batteries as well?

Batteries would also make sense - like the Hornsdale Power Reserve: a 150MW/194MWh grid-connected energy storage system co-located with the Hornsdale Wind Farm in the Mid North region of South Australia.

The original installation in 2017 was the largest lithium-ion battery in the world at 129 MWh and 100 MW. It was expanded in 2020 to 194 MWh at 150 MW. 

[Ronaldo47]

Prompted by the French threat to pull the plug on Jersey, there are a couple of items in the business section of today's Daily Telegraph on how much  the UK's energy policy is based on importing cheap energy from Europe over sub-sea cables (interconnectors) to make good the shortfall in home-generated green energy at peak times ( or when the wind doesn't blow): 9% in the first half of 2020, estimated to rise to 25% by 2024. Four of the planned twelve interconnectors have been installed so far. The possibility of Rolls- Royce's nuclear expertise being used to construct mini power stations to top up the grid is mentioned, if politics/political correctness doesn't get in the way.

 

We never seem to learn from history. 

 

Few people these days are aware of the fact that the decision to phase out coal gas in favour of natural gas was taken years before North Sea Gas was discovered. The original plan to import liquified methane gas from the USA was changed to Algeria when large gas deposits were found there. Had North Sea Gas not been discovered, by the time of the oil crisis of the 1970's, the UK would have been largely dependent on imported gas, transported by sea in tankers to a terminal on Canvey Island in Essex, and vulnerable to terrorist attack while en route on the high seas. 

 

When the first World War broke out, the government were somewhat embarassed to realise that the dyestuffs used in the manufacture of army and naval uniforms were all imported from Germany. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 6, 2021 by Ronaldo47

[Pluto]

On 06/05/2021 at 19:50, Ronaldo47 said:

When the first World War broke out, the government were somewhat embarassed to realise that the dyestuffs used in the manufacture of army and naval uniforms were all imported from Germany. 

Suitable dyes were soon created at chemical works around Accrington serving the textile industry, an early case of technologists sorting out politicians' lack of knowledge.

[ditchcrawler]

JCB in on the act now https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/jcb-finds-cheap-way-to-run-digger-using-hydrogen-pdm757gcz

[peterboat]

11 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

JCB in on the act now https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/jcb-finds-cheap-way-to-run-digger-using-hydrogen-pdm757gcz

Now all they have to do is find cheap hydrogen and a clean and cheap way of producing it, plus storing, transporting it safely and the idea will be a great one

Edited May 22, 2021 by peterboat

[nb Innisfree]

https://energypost.eu/hydrogen-fuel-cell-cars-competitive-hydrogen-fuel-cell-expert/

https://www.spglobal.com/marketintelligence/en/news-insights/latest-news-headlines/why-mind-bogglingly-stupid-hydrogen-powered-cars-are-not-going-away-55328443

[IanD]

On 22/05/2021 at 11:34, nb Innisfree said:

https://energypost.eu/hydrogen-fuel-cell-cars-competitive-hydrogen-fuel-cell-expert/

https://www.spglobal.com/marketintelligence/en/news-insights/latest-news-headlines/why-mind-bogglingly-stupid-hydrogen-powered-cars-are-not-going-away-55328443

Just in case anyone gets the wrong end of the stick, the first post has one crucial word missing from the link...

Why hydrogen fuel cell cars are not competitive — from a hydrogen fuel cell expert

[ditchcrawler]

On 12/03/2021 at 11:17, Mad Harold said:

Westport fuel systems of Canada are testing a large ice engine running on hydrodgen.

They say initial results are encouraging and these engines are being developed for truck,train and marine use.

Almost zero emissions and much cheaper than battery electric or fuel cell,and can use existing tooling and manufacture.

Technology seems to be moving quickly.

The UK have used it in a plane engine RAF sets new Guinness world record after first successful flight using revolutionary fuel | Science | News | Express.co.uk

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

The UK have used it in a plane engine RAF sets new Guinness world record after first successful flight using revolutionary fuel | Science | News | Express.co.uk

As long as its green hydrogen it will be ok