ICE to run on hydrogen?

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, mark99 said:

Natural gas is used in UK for some HGV applications. Typically you need an "anchor" fleet. Same vehicles using same known route using same filling station as the number of filling stations are limited in number presently.  The gas is taken from the network and compressed to 250 bar. 

 

Waitrose is a good example.

What do London Buses run on, other than roads?

 

Over 2,600 diesel-electric hybrid buses currently run through the capital, making up 30 per cent of our bus fleet. All of these buses are quieter, more fuel-efficient and cleaner than standard diesel buses, reducing emissions by between 30-40 per cent.

Hydrogen

We want London to be a world leader in hydrogen and fuel cell activity.

Hydrogen is a universal fuel that will play a major role in our clean, sustainable energy future. Together with fuel cells, hydrogen will increasingly provide us all with clean and secure energy to power vehicles.

Excitingly, if the hydrogen itself is produced from a carbon-neutral source such as London's waste, solar or wind power, we have the potential for carbon-neutral and emission-free energy.

Hydrogen fuel is a great way to power public and private transport in London. The only emission is water vapor which means that no carbon dioxide or other air pollutants are released into the air.

We know it works too, as our RV1 bus ran on it until recently. These hydrogen fuel cell buses continue to operate along our 444 bus route. 

The world's first hydrogen double deck buses will be introduced on three London bus routes next year, helping tackle the capital's air quality crisis.

Hydrogen-powered vehicles have a range similar to conventional diesel vehicles achieving 350-400 miles on a single tank of fuel, and they can be refuelled within 3-5 minutes.

 

Edited March 14, 2021 by ditchcrawler

[IanD]

15 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

[snip]

Excitingly, if the hydrogen itself is produced from a carbon-neutral source such as London's waste, solar or wind power, we have the potential for carbon-neutral and emission-free energy.

Hydrogen fuel is a great one way to power public and private transport in London. The only emission is water vapor which means that no carbon dioxide or other air pollutants are released into the air.

We know it works too, as our RV1 bus ran on it until recently. These hydrogen fuel cell buses continue to operate along our 444 bus route. 

The world's first hydrogen double deck buses will be introduced on three London bus routes next year, helping tackle the capital's air quality crisis.

Hydrogen-powered vehicles have a range similar to conventional diesel vehicles achieving 350-400 miles on a single tank of fuel, and they can be refuelled within 3-5 minutes.

 

FTFY ?

 

Like I said, hydrogen could have its place as a niche solution for fleets like buses which have a small number of depots they return to regularly, where the costs and difficulties of distributing/storing the hydrogen and the high cost of the refuelling stations themselves can be dealt with, and where the total fuel used is a small part of the total transport market so the inefficiencies can be accepted.

 

Having said all that, it's difficult to see what the advantage over batteries is, because buses can easily be recharged overnight in the depot -- so yes they can be refuelled in a few minutes, but so what? The sentence starting "if the hydrogen itself..." still ignores the fact that this takes 3x as much of the renewable energy source as BEVs do, and this energy is not free or unlimited. And fuel cell buses are *horrendously* expensive compared to battery ones...

 

And if there is excess spare "free" renewable energy available overnight, hydrogen is close to the least efficient way of storing it. Which is why big battery storage plants (>100MWh) are being built all over the world, because this way you get 90% of the energy back instead of less than half that. Along with other methods like gravity storage and pumped storage (water or compressed gas) -- *anything* is better than using the energy to pull reluctant chemical bonds apart to make hydrogen, and then losing even more when converting this back to energy.

 

This isn't me being a "battery fanboi", it's the way the energy industry is going, and for very good reasons. It's the same as the response to hydrogen for cars -- this isn't happening not because I don't like it, but because it just doesn't make sense on a large scale. The facts that it's gone precisely nowhere in spite of being plugged as the emissions "holy grail" for more than 10 years should tell us something...

Edited March 15, 2021 by IanD

[peterboat]

15 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

What do London Buses run on, other than roads?

 

Over 2,600 diesel-electric hybrid buses currently run through the capital, making up 30 per cent of our bus fleet. All of these buses are quieter, more fuel-efficient and cleaner than standard diesel buses, reducing emissions by between 30-40 per cent.

Hydrogen

We want London to be a world leader in hydrogen and fuel cell activity.

Hydrogen is a universal fuel that will play a major role in our clean, sustainable energy future. Together with fuel cells, hydrogen will increasingly provide us all with clean and secure energy to power vehicles.

Excitingly, if the hydrogen itself is produced from a carbon-neutral source such as London's waste, solar or wind power, we have the potential for carbon-neutral and emission-free energy.

Hydrogen fuel is a great way to power public and private transport in London. The only emission is water vapor which means that no carbon dioxide or other air pollutants are released into the air.

We know it works too, as our RV1 bus ran on it until recently. These hydrogen fuel cell buses continue to operate along our 444 bus route. 

The world's first hydrogen double deck buses will be introduced on three London bus routes next year, helping tackle the capital's air quality crisis.

Hydrogen-powered vehicles have a range similar to conventional diesel vehicles achieving 350-400 miles on a single tank of fuel, and they can be refuelled within 3-5 minutes.

 

Not quite true for refueling if it's cold and damp the pumps can freeze up ?

[LadyG]

On 12/03/2021 at 20:10, dmr said:

 

So the turbine owner gets paid for owning them rather than for making electricity??? This would explain a lot. I note that some big financial institutions are buying up windfarms.

 

.............Dave

Of course, a local estate owner, who was in financial straights, had a windfarm on previously worthless moorland. Got a new road and

a new shed for the sheep (those sheep were never on the moor btw), plus income ad infinitum. Obviously that was when grants were available.

Hunterston built experimental two ginormous wind things, one was the control, so never turned. This was well into windfarming.

Edited March 18, 2021 by LadyG

[ditchcrawler]

Charging electric cars with hydrogen https://cleantechnica.com/2021/01/29/this-is-the-hydrogen-generator-that-will-power-the-extreme-e-electric-off-road-racers/

[manxmike]

Of course methane would make a wonderful alternative, sadly it smells not very nice.

Cars could be equipped with a trailer carrying several pigs to produce the methane. This would also have the advantage of getting rid of waste foodstuff to feed the pigs.

Alternatively cows could be equipped with gas collectors and a tank strapped to their backs, instead of the milk tanker calling at the farm a methane tank collector would become a common site on the "B" roads.

Of course, a lot of the global warming (oops, sorry, climate change) is caused by animals farting. Since we now have more sheep and cattle than humans the problem will only get worse.

[peterboat]

11 minutes ago, manxmike said:

Of course methane would make a wonderful alternative, sadly it smells not very nice.

Cars could be equipped with a trailer carrying several pigs to produce the methane. This would also have the advantage of getting rid of waste foodstuff to feed the pigs.

Alternatively cows could be equipped with gas collectors and a tank strapped to their backs, instead of the milk tanker calling at the farm a methane tank collector would become a common site on the "B" roads.

Of course, a lot of the global warming (oops, sorry, climate change) is caused by animals farting. Since we now have more sheep and cattle than humans the problem will only get worse.

Strange but true farms are running generators that run on methane  and I believe the heating as well, so some of it is going up in flames

[cjeam]

On 13/04/2021 at 08:38, manxmike said:

Of course methane would make a wonderful alternative, sadly it smells not very nice.

Cars could be equipped with a trailer carrying several pigs to produce the methane. This would also have the advantage of getting rid of waste foodstuff to feed the pigs.

Alternatively cows could be equipped with gas collectors and a tank strapped to their backs, instead of the milk tanker calling at the farm a methane tank collector would become a common site on the "B" roads.

Of course, a lot of the global warming (oops, sorry, climate change) is caused by animals farting. Since we now have more sheep and cattle than humans the problem will only get worse.

That used to be a thing with gas bag vehicles too. Article: Gas Bag Vehicles - LOW-TECH MAGAZINE  

Incidentally burning hydrogen in a combustion engine will still produce NOx emissions, but I'm unfamiliar with how it compares. 

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, cjeam said:

That used to be a thing with gas bag vehicles too

 

 

How old are you ?

 

[ditchcrawler]

I wonder if the gas was flammable, Maybe someone should ask the chap with the pipe. 

 

[cjeam]

24 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

How old are you ?

Oh, hah. And yes rather younger than that episode is. I'm only slightly older than Uk Gold, where I would have seen some of the repeats but don't recall that one. 

[Ronaldo47]

I have a 1940 "Motor" annual that describes the cars adapted to run on coal gas. Special filling points were provided in larger cities to refill them from the gas mains. Another alternative to petrol was the producer gas trailer, basically a trailer-mounted coke furnace that, from memory, had to be alternately supplied with water (to make steam that reacted with the coke to produce a hydrocarbon gas) and air (to heat up the coke again and generate carbon monoxide). 

 

A point about liquid fuels is that we are used to comparing them in terms of volume, such as miles per gallon. The true comparson used by engineers is by comparing  mass, as a given mass of light hydrocarbon will yield approximately the same energy as the same mass of a dense hydrocarbon. But the volume needed to store a given mass of hydrogen is many, many  times that for a heavy oil like diesel, quite apart from the problem of the ability of hydrogen molecules to seep through parts other fuels cannot reach ( to parody Heiniken).  

 

I remember a chapter in a school chemistry book on hydrogen that started with "The gas the earth lost". Apparently hydrogen molecules are so light that they can easily overcome the gravitational attraction of the earth and so escape into space, one reason for the absence of free hydrogen from the earth's atmosphere.

Edited April 14, 2021 by Ronaldo47
typos

[ditchcrawler]

11 hours ago, Ronaldo47 said:

I have a 1940 "Motor" annual that describes the cars adapted to run on coal gas. Special filling points were provided in larger cities to refill them from the gas mains. Another alternative to petrol was the producer gas trailer, basically a trailer-mounted coke furnace that, from memory, had to be alternately supplied with water (to make steam that reacted with the coke to produce a hydrocarbon gas) and air (to heat up the coke again and generate carbon monoxide). 

 

A point about liquid fuels is that we are used to comparing them in terms of volume, such as miles per gallon. The true comparson used by engineers is by comparing  mass, as a given mass of light hydrocarbon will yield approximately the same energy as the same mass of a dense hydrocarbon. But the volume needed to store a given mass of hydrogen is many, many  times that for a heavy oil like diesel, quite apart from the problem of the ability of hydrogen molecules to seep through parts other fuels cannot reach ( to parody Heiniken).  

 

I remember a chapter in a school chemistry book on hydrogen that started with "The gas the earth lost". Apparently hydrogen molecules are so light that they can easily overcome the gravitational attraction of the earth and so escape into space, one reason for the absence of free hydrogen from the earth's atmosphere.

There is a bus with trailer here https://www.britishpathe.com/video/bus-with-gas-trailer

[Tracy D'arth]

I read the title carefully but could not understand why my in-car entertainment system should run on hydrogen rather than a battery.

 

Hat and coat on the door..............

[Machpoint005]

On 13/04/2021 at 08:38, manxmike said:

Of course methane would make a wonderful alternative, sadly it smells not very nice.

 

Methane is colourless and odourless. If it comes from animal waste it's the other complex compounds that smell. 

 

When natural gas (which is mainly methane) comes in from the North Sea, the first thing that happens to it on the grid side of the fence (British Gas, as was) is that mercaptans are added to make it smell like town gas. 

[ditchcrawler]

12 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

Methane is colourless and odourless. If it comes from animal waste it's the other complex compounds that smell. 

 

When natural gas (which is mainly methane) comes in from the North Sea, the first thing that happens to it on the grid side of the fence (British Gas, as was) is that mercaptans are added to make it smell like town gas. 

And didn't we know if any escaped

[peterboat]

3 hours ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

Methane is colourless and odourless. If it comes from animal waste it's the other complex compounds that smell. 

 

When natural gas (which is mainly methane) comes in from the North Sea, the first thing that happens to it on the grid side of the fence (British Gas, as was) is that mercaptans are added to make it smell like town gas. 

Propane has stenching agents added for safety as well 

[Murflynn]

12 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

And didn't we know if any escaped

 

was G4S involved ?   

[Pluto]

The idea of gas powered canal boats is pretty old. This is a newspaper report from 1905.

[mark99]

On 15/04/2021 at 18:46, Machpoint005 said:

 

 

When natural gas (which is mainly methane) comes in from the North Sea, the first thing that happens to it on the grid side of the fence (British Gas, as was) is that mercaptans are added to make it smell like town gas. 

 

Ethyl Mercaptan. We had a little vial of it in our sub district  office at North Thames Gas. If we laid a new district main (under the streets) and it failed the final pressure test, a few drops were introduced and more air put in as a last resort to find the leak. By nose.

 

If the producers of gas at the shore overdid the mercaptan injection, our Central Control for leaks were warned and sent out a telex to the emergency shifts at all Districts to be aware the reported leaks may go up. 

Edited April 18, 2021 by mark99

[ditchcrawler]

China are at it https://splash247.com/chinas-first-marine-fuel-cell-celebrates-type-approval/ I wonder if that means it has a "ce" mark

[Alan de Enfield]

Lürssen sells first superyacht powered by fuel cell technology (boatinternational.com)

 

German superyacht yard Lürssen has announced the sale of a superyacht powered by fuel cell technology.

Lürssen managing partner Peter Lürssen announced the sale on the Lürssen Live talk show during a conversation about alternative propulsion technologies.

 

The practical value of the technology will allow the owner to spend more than 15 nights at anchor or cruise of more than 1,000 nautical miles, both completely emissions-free.

[peterboat]

5 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

China are at it https://splash247.com/chinas-first-marine-fuel-cell-celebrates-type-approval/ I wonder if that means it has a "ce" mark

I read it as well and thought the same ?

[ditchcrawler]

4 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Lürssen sells first superyacht powered by fuel cell technology (boatinternational.com)

 

German superyacht yard Lürssen has announced the sale of a superyacht powered by fuel cell technology.

Lürssen managing partner Peter Lürssen announced the sale on the Lürssen Live talk show during a conversation about alternative propulsion technologies.

 

The practical value of the technology will allow the owner to spend more than 15 nights at anchor or cruise of more than 1,000 nautical miles, both completely emissions-free.

Its times like this that I wish I was 40 years younger and had the same time, money and knowledge that I have now.

[peterboat]

5 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Its times like this that I wish I was 40 years younger and had the same time, money and knowledge that I have now.

Same here especially with women, however I would probably have killed myself with fast cars