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ICE to run on hydrogen?


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Westport fuel systems of Canada are testing a large ice engine running on hydrodgen.

They say initial results are encouraging and these engines are being developed for truck,train and marine use.

Almost zero emissions and much cheaper than battery electric or fuel cell,and can use existing tooling and manufacture.

Technology seems to be moving quickly.

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10 minutes ago, Mad Harold said:

Westport fuel systems of Canada are testing a large ice engine running on hydrodgen.

They say initial results are encouraging and these engines are being developed for truck,train and marine use.

Almost zero emissions and much cheaper than battery electric or fuel cell,and can use existing tooling and manufacture.

Technology seems to be moving quickly.

 

Sounds encouraging...but what is required to produce the hydrogen?

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But...what do you use to produce the huge amounts of electricity...needed for electrolysis?

 

Can't be the hydrogen ...as you need something to produce the hydrogen in the first place...and you don't get energy for nothing?

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9 minutes ago, Bobbybass said:

But...what do you use to produce the huge amounts of electricity...needed for electrolysis?

 

Can't be the hydrogen ...as you need something to produce the hydrogen in the first place...and you don't get energy for nothing?

 

why are some folk so reactionary?   always looking for loopholes.    :rolleyes:

 

 

 

Edited by Murflynn
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12 minutes ago, Bobbybass said:

But...what do you use to produce the huge amounts of electricity...needed for electrolysis?

 

Can't be the hydrogen ...as you need something to produce the hydrogen in the first place...and you don't get energy for nothing?

excess electricity from wind and solar to make hydrogen and then burn the hydrogen when short of electricity to drive the generators

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I believe it is well established that an IC engines can be run on hydrogen. One problem is that IC engines can never be more than about 1/3 efficient (fundamental thermodynamics) and as hydrogen is expensive to make, transport and store its pretty daft to waste 2/3's of its energy. A fuel cell driving an electric motor is a better way to use hydrogen, but even this is less efficient than a battery and electric motor.  Hydrogen might have a future in keeping some historic engines running in museums etc, but diesel substitutes like HVO are probably a better option.

 

...............Dave

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2 minutes ago, dmr said:

I believe it is well established that an IC engines can be run on hydrogen. One problem is that IC engines can never be more than about 1/3 efficient (fundamental thermodynamics) and as hydrogen is expensive to make, transport and store its pretty daft to waste 2/3's of its energy. A fuel cell driving an electric motor is a better way to use hydrogen, but even this is less efficient than a battery and electric motor.  Hydrogen might have a future in keeping some historic engines running in museums etc, but diesel substitutes like HVO are probably a better option.

 

...............Dave

But if you make and store it where you intend to use it, it makes a bit more sense

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26 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

 

why are some folk so reactionary?   always looking for loopholes.    :rolleyes:

 

 

 

No....

 

I looked at your diagram....and was curious.

Some people talking of excess wind power etc...make sense.

 

 

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Hydrogen is an absolutely brilliant solution... right up until you have to produce it, move it or store it in large quantities. All of those things present challenges as yet unsolved.

Edited by Sea Dog
Unfinished post!
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Just now, Tracy D'arth said:

Thailand runs all its trucks and buses on CNG, compressed natural gas, and they manage to store and distribute that OK.

 

Yes, but that's not hydrogen.  It's what most commercial hydrogen is made from, with huge amounts of carbon monoxide as a byproduct.

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2 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Thailand runs all its trucks and buses on CNG, compressed natural gas, and they manage to store and distribute that OK.

With the majority of hydrogen being produced by steam reforming of natural gas, it makes sense that they don't waste energy in turning it into hydrogen first.

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12 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Thailand runs all its trucks and buses on CNG, compressed natural gas, and they manage to store and distribute that OK.

 

Hydrogen has teeny weeny moleciles that are very good at escaping. Methane and ethane molecules are far bigger and fatter.

(You can probably tell I wasn't a chemical engineer).

 

But:

 

producing hydrogen from excess renewable energy still makes sense, even if it is thermally inefficient.

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If we make too much hydrogen, will the world get lighter and float away?

Converting sunlight into hydrogen is technically an energy gain for the planet and will worsen global warming more than releasing our earthbound energy, a bad idea?

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1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

But if you make and store it where you intend to use it, it makes a bit more sense

 

But you make it with electricity and putting that electricity straight into a battery makes much more sense.   This concept of using excess or spare electricity is almost certainly false. All cars are converting to electric and domestic gas boilers are to be replaced by electric heating, I predict that electricity is going to be in very short supply.

 

.............Dave

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1 minute ago, dmr said:

 

But you make it with electricity and putting that electricity straight into a battery makes much more sense.   This concept of using excess or spare electricity is almost certainly false. All cars are converting to electric and domestic gas boilers are to be replaced by electric heating, I predict that electricity is going to be in very short supply.

 

.............Dave

And copper for the infrastructure necessary.

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1 minute ago, dmr said:

 

But you make it with electricity and putting that electricity straight into a battery makes much more sense.   This concept of using excess or spare electricity is almost certainly false. All cars are converting to electric and domestic gas boilers are to be replaced by electric heating, I predict that electricity is going to be in very short supply.

 

You're spoiling the green fantasy by using facts again ...

 

We complain about lead acid batteries where you have to put ~120% of the energy back in than you use so dream of hydrogen where you need to put ~500% of the useful energy in instead!

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Just now, ditchcrawler said:

But if its that or waste it?

 

It very rarely is though.  It's generally a commercial decision to stop wind turbines as the electricity price drops to peanuts at low demand / high supply times.

 

The perceived advantage of hydrogen is that it's transportable, the practical issue is that it's a real pain to transport it because it's so "slippery." 

 

The vast majority of commercial hydrogen is produced on site and used immediately in the next process because it's such a pain to store or transport.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

Waste it? Nah, it'll still be there somewhere - energy can neither be created nor destroyed. The trick is getting it into an acceptable form.

So you just turn the wind turbines off because you cant sell the electricity

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1 minute ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

It very rarely is though.  It's generally a commercial decision to stop wind turbines as the electricity price drops to peanuts at low demand / high supply times.

So why not keep them going to make Hydrogen

The perceived advantage of hydrogen is that it's transportable, the practical issue is that it's a real pain to transport it because it's so "slippery." 

Agree

The vast majority of commercial hydrogen is produced on site and used immediately in the next process because it's such a pain to store or transport.

Which is what you can do with electricity, store on site until you need to generate back into the grid

 

 

 

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51 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

It very rarely is though.  It's generally a commercial decision to stop wind turbines as the electricity price drops to peanuts at low demand / high supply times.

 

 

 

 

 

I just can't understand this, whenever I walk past pour local windfarm and see half the turbines not running it just looks like madness. Wind turbines cost a lot to build and install but the running costs must be minimal. Why are we burning gas whilst having the turbines sitting idle?

 

...........Dave

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