First it was composting toilets, now it is moorings, running engines, diesel heating and solid fuel stoves

[Mike Adams]

14 minutes ago, IanD said:

Or maybe this is what CaRT are actually planning -- in which case their press release was *very* badly written..

I think it is more likely being done to pacify the very expensive houses around there.

[IanD]

Just now, Mike Adams said:

I think it is more likely being done to pacify the very expensive houses around there.

That's what I speculated too. But the "all-electric" proposal isn't needed to do that -- or sensible...

[TheBiscuits]

Air pollution control I suspect, which rules out diesel and gas heating too.

 

Supplying hookup won't reduce the number of oiks outside the posh flats, it will make it more attractive - for the five boat lengths at each site!

 

The NIMBYs will have to come up with another complaint other than smoke ...

[IanD]

18 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

Air pollution control I suspect, which rules out diesel and gas heating too.

 

Supplying hookup won't reduce the number of oiks outside the posh flats, it will make it more attractive - for the five boat lengths at each site!

 

The NIMBYs will have to come up with another complaint other than smoke ...

Surely the houses round there use (probably gas) heating too? And the cars which drive round there still largely run on diesel or petrol. And the houses and cars outnumber the boats by 100x or 1000x or more...

 

So I can't believe that air pollution from gas/diesel heating/cooking on boats could be used as a reason, legally or otherwise.

 

Smoke and fumes and noise, that's different. I've walked along there and the combination of smoke from stoves and fumes/noise from diesel engines/gennys can be pretty nasty even just passing by, and worse if you live (or moor) there.

 

When I used to drive home to Yorkshire I could smell (and see!) the smoke as soon as I reached the edge of town, because everyone had coal fires. Thankfully those days are gone and the air is a lot cleaner nowadays. Which means that boaters saying "I should be allowed to carry on burning [xxx] because it's traditional" are on pretty thin ground, regardless of whether [xxx] is wood or solid fuel or diesel in noisy/smoky engines/gennys, because the world has moved on and people expect cleaner air nowadays, both outside and in places like pubs with the smoking ban.

 

A boat or two burning nice fragrant scavenged wood out in the countryside, lovely, that's green and it even smells nice, nobody minds.

 

A boat running a smoky noisy diesel engine/genny to charge batteries, not so nice whether you're passing by or moored or live there.

 

Lots of boats doing both in a confined area in a town or city where other people live -- sorry guys, just not acceptable nowadays, time to have a thought for other people too.

 

Whether they're posh flats or council houses is irrelevant; just because this was OK fifty years ago (like in the old photos of canal basins wreathed in smoke) doesn't make it OK now.

Edited March 9, 2021 by IanD

[nb Innisfree]

16A hook up in conjunction with a big battery bank and a couple of Victron Mutipluses should do the trick. Continuous 16A gives 72kwh per 24hrs, say 20 to 30kwh needed, plenty of elbow room there. 

It's the start of the big push towards an all electric world. 

[IanD]

4 minutes ago, nb Innisfree said:

16A hook up in conjunction with a big battery bank and a couple of Victron Mutipluses should do the trick. Continuous 16A gives 72kwh per 24hrs, say 20 to 30kwh needed, plenty of elbow room there. 

Which is pretty much what "all-electric" boats do nowadays, but at a high cost. There are plenty of ways to solve the problem if you think it's OK to force all boaters to spend ten grand or more, or move on. Most people would say this isn't reasonable, and say to CaRT "If you tell us to go all-electric, you have to provide enough power -- or pay for the inverters/batteries so you can get away with a standard electric bollard to save *you* money".

Edited March 9, 2021 by IanD

[Mike Todd]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

If gas is still allowed then boaters will have to switch to that for heating (install a gas boiler) as well as cooking (if they don't already cook with gas, which many do). Though of course if a gas boiler is allowed, why not a diesel heater? I suspect it's the solid fuel smoke and diesel engine noise/fumes that are being objected to.

 

Apart from the cost (gas costs a lot more than solid fuel or diesel, especially in winter) they then have to replace gas bottles far more often than today -- where do these come from? This is also a short-term sticking-plaster which helps with the smoke/fumes/noise problem, but still relies on gas.

 

So it still sounds like non-joined-up-thinking from CaRT. They have similar problems (CO2 emissions, pollution, running costs) to the one the government is facing with domestic heating, and the long-term solution here for most houses is planned to be heat-pumps with the power coming from renewables. There is/will be a strategy to make this happen, possibly including installation subsidies, and heat-pump manufacturers are already rolling out products to meet this potentially huge market (30M houses in the UK?). This helps people get over the installation/cost problem of switching to electricity.

 

If CaRT want the same to happen on the canals -- which is a laudable aim! -- then they also need to work out how to make this feasible and affordable, and as was said in an earlier thread this also means heat-pumps. But who pays for the installation, and where do these small inexpensive water-source heat pumps come from?

 

Maybe this is just a badly-thought out PR stunt to smooth the feathers of people in expensive flats next to canals who complain (justifiably?) about smoke and noise and diesel fumes. Or maybe CaRT have thought all this through, though I don't see any evidence of that...

I'm not sure that it is entirely fair to blame CaRT for the lack of thinking through as they are largely responding to pressure from the local authorities (and influential neighbours) in London. This has been the case for some while now. In any case, it is an experiment but I am not sure if we know what it is that CaRT expect to prove/disprove by it.

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

I think CaRT are using a sledgehammer to crack a nut here...

 

Getting boaters to use electric for everything -- what the press release says -- is going to have huge issues, at least in the short-term (CaRT need a long-term strategy!) and with power provision.

 

But if the problem is smoke from solid fuel stoves and noise/fumes from smoky/noisy diesel generators/engines, this can be solved more easily and cheaply. Diesel or gas stoves and heaters don't cause the problems that they're facing, so why ban them?

 

Yes getting rid of solid fuel stoves and heating would be painful, but for most boaters allowing them to be replaced with diesel drip stoves (Bubble etc) or heaters (Webasto etc) or ranges would be a much less painful than forcing a complete switch to electric, and avoids the 50A bollard problem. Or people can use gas for heating/hot water/cooking, so long as they can solve the bottle supply problem.

 

It's not as good long-term as a proper fix (electric/heat-pumps) but solves the pressing problem, and is a lot easier and cheaper in the short-term. Electric bollards eliminate the need to run noisy/smoky diesel generators/engines.

 

Or maybe this is what CaRT are actually planning -- in which case their press release was *very* badly written...

 My bubble stove runs happily on full biodiesel, so its cleaner than kero or diesel  the genny is happy with it as well 

[nb Innisfree]

42 minutes ago, IanD said:

Which is pretty much what "all-electric" boats do nowadays, but at a high cost. There are plenty of ways to solve the problem if you think it's OK to force all boaters to spend ten grand or more, or move on. Most people would say this isn't reasonable, and say to CaRT "If you tell us to go all-electric, you have to provide enough power -- or pay for the inverters/batteries so you can get away with a standard electric bollard to save *you* money".

I expect it will all be OK over time, CaRT will start a programme of gradual installation, electric costs will start to fall and demand for boat equipment will rise triggering more trade and lower prices. 

Fingers crossed. 

[Arthur Marshall]

7 minutes ago, nb Innisfree said:

I expect it will all be OK over time, CaRT will start a programme of gradual installation, electric costs will start to fall and demand for boat equipment will rise triggering more trade and lower prices. 

Fingers crossed. 

Interesting concept, this one about lower prices for boaty things. And electricity prices going down?

CRT have obviously been told to clear up pollution, which they will do by banning stuff. Sorted. Boaters' problems resulting aren't for CRT to sort out, any more than the coming ban on installation of gas boilers in housing is the builders'. We just get lumped with it. People are starting to panic about pollution and global warming and a solid fuel heated, diesel powered boat doesn't really have much of a defence, nice though they are.

[IanD]

26 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

I'm not sure that it is entirely fair to blame CaRT for the lack of thinking through as they are largely responding to pressure from the local authorities (and influential neighbours) in London. This has been the case for some while now. In any case, it is an experiment but I am not sure if we know what it is that CaRT expect to prove/disprove by it.

I'm not blaming CaRT for being pushed into taking action to reduce smoke/fumes/noise in the middle of a city where people live -- bringing in the fact that the neighbours are rich or influential is trying to deflect the blame, if they were poor people in social housing they'd have the same right not to be stunk out.

 

I am blaming them for what looks like a badly-thought-out knee-jerk reaction to complaints -- or if its actually better than that, a terrible press release ?

[IanD]

29 minutes ago, peterboat said:

 My bubble stove runs happily on full biodiesel, so its cleaner than kero or diesel  the genny is happy with it as well 

That's green and your (admirable) choice. Unfortunately it doesn't stop other less-green-minded people from using the dirtiest fossil-fuel diesel they can get their hands on, in a noisy smoky engine/genny...

 

Exactly the same problem as the subject that shan't be mentioned -- if it's left down to choice, some people will do the right thing, but more won't because it's cheaper and/or easier. Which leads to a ban, which is unfair on the people who were doing the right thing ?

[The Gravy Boater]

I'm confused... who would have any interest in visiting That London nowadays?

[TheBiscuits]

 

Seems they are after the stuff on the towpaths as well.

[Mad Harold]

1 hour ago, peterboat said:

 My bubble stove runs happily on full biodiesel, so its cleaner than kero or diesel  the genny is happy with it as well 

Is it cleaner? If the biodiesel is made from palm oil,I have read somewhere that it is far dirtier than diesel.

[doratheexplorer]

2 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Seems they are after the stuff on the towpaths as well.

This is old news.  CRT (and BW) have been posting notices on long term moorings like this for years.  Rarely do they follow through.

[Ray T]

A lesson from history.

 

Edited March 9, 2021 by Ray T

[Mad Harold]

Britain,the EU,China,even the US are getting serious about air pollution and climate change.

The measures posted here are only the beginning.

Eventually electric propulsion,heating and cooking will become more practical. Sticking my neck out,I think the developement of hydrodgen paste is the most practical solution.

Mixed with water to produce hydrodgen gas to generate electricity through a fuel cell for electrical needs.

It will be expensive without doubt,and may spell the end of the less well off living on boats,because it will probably be cheaper to live in a house or flat.

[peterboat]

35 minutes ago, Mad Harold said:

Is it cleaner? If the biodiesel is made from palm oil,I have read somewhere that it is far dirtier than diesel.

Reclaimed cooking oils so it's on a second life

[PaulJ]

 

57 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

This is old news.  CRT (and BW) have been posting notices on long term moorings like this for years.  Rarely do they follow through.

I reported this lot dumped at the 60ft  Winding hole on the Leicester just before Watford Gap Services Sunday night.  Got an email back this morning which said they had indentified the owner and where taking action to ensure it was removed asap.

 

 

[doratheexplorer]

1 minute ago, PaulJ said:

 

I reported this lot dumped at the 60ft  Winding hole on the Leicester just before Watford Gap Services Sunday night.  Got an email back this morning which said they had indentified the owner and where taking action to ensure it was removed asap.

 

 

That's just fly tipping.  The CRT notice above relates to long term moorers colonising the towpath with bags of coal, plant pots, benches etc.

[PaulJ]

11 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

That's just fly tipping.  The CRT notice above relates to long term moorers colonising the towpath with bags of coal, plant pots, benches etc.

Ah OK. On my phone so I only read the heading on the notice.

Still rubbish is rubbish and I was pretty impressed at how quick CRT reacted to it- particulary as it was chucked out where nobody has any right to be moored in the first place.

[Mike Todd]

3 hours ago, IanD said:

That's green and your (admirable) choice. Unfortunately it doesn't stop other less-green-minded people from using the dirtiest fossil-fuel diesel they can get their hands on, in a noisy smoky engine/genny...

 

Exactly the same problem as the subject that shan't be mentioned -- if it's left down to choice, some people will do the right thing, but more won't because it's cheaper and/or easier. Which leads to a ban, which is unfair on the people who were doing the right thing ?

bio diesel may be green but is it clean?

[IanD]

3 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

bio diesel may be green but is it clean?

It's as clean as normal diesel, and greener (amount depending on how it's made and from what) -- much greener if it's recycled cooking oil.

 

Whether it's cleaner or greener than other energy sources depends on what they are... ?

 

We shouldn't let the quest for perfection stop us using something that's better but not ideal, it's still better than doing nothing until something perfect comes along. When it does, then you can switch to it ?

 

[matty40s]

2 hours ago, PaulJ said:

 

I reported this lot dumped at the 60ft  Winding hole on the Leicester just before Watford Gap Services Sunday night.  Got an email back this morning which said they had indentified the owner and where taking action to ensure it was removed asap.

 

 

That used to be a 70 foot winding hole 10 years ago, probably only 45/50 feet across now with the reeds taking over.