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Simple boat sale documents and procedures


pedroinlondon

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Hello again

So the situation from here changed for the better ?

I let the buyer who wanted  the ridiculously large contract go a few weeks ago (a contract from a template which he also altered!!) and now I have two cash buyers interested in the boat.

I do not require a deposit and neither of them require a survey, so what would be the best and easiest way to conclude this deal?

Both buyers would require the boat to be delivered a long way away from where it is now, which I am very happy to oblige as it will be a sort of farewell to my beloved vessel, but I do not wish to have that on the contract, and I am only willing to take off after the money is in my account.

I will leave naturally all the paperwork from when I originally purchase the boat with them, but as I may leave the country next year I want to make sure they will have a solid contract should they wish to sell the boat on later.

I also obviously want to make sure that I don't have any problems.

 

So I'm thinking:

1. I fill the simple bill of sale similar to the one from a friend of mine I'm posting here (but without the "and delivers to" bit) and post it to the buyer.

2. He fills his bit.

3. He wires the money to my account. 

4. From the moment I check the money is in my account the boat is his, and I notify the Canal and River Trust and the insurance company.

 

Am I supposed to have a copy of the bill of sale or do we both fill and sign one copy for each?

 

Am I missing stuff? This bill of sale does not say anything like "upon receipt of funds".

 

Please let me know what you think.

 

Thanks

billof sale.jpg

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Personally I would not make a large payment by bank transfer to a private individual until I was stood on the boat, but likewise I'd be reluctant to deliver the boat a long distance for the buyer to say 'I've changed my mind'.

 

One of you has to trust the other, or

 

You accept a deposit sufficient to cover your costs of delivery and 'return' so that in the event of a change of mind your are not financially out of pocket, or

 

You could always use a solicitor to hold the money, and, once it is in the Solicitors hands you deliver the boat, once he has signed for receipt of the boat the solicitor releases the money. If you don't deliver by a certian date the solicitor returns the money to the 'buyer'.

 

There would be some cost (solicitors fees) but it is a safe method for both parties.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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Hi Alan

 

Thanks but I really do not wish to have a third party involved, and definitely not a solicitor.

I think the buyer trusts me and will send me the money, but I just want to make sure I'm handling the paperwork correctly.

With this new facility of checking one's bank balance over the phone it should be easy, I hope.

Also, the bank transfer in addition to a pre-signed documents would be good enough proof that a sale had taken place, would it not?

 

I'm mostly concerned about the suitability of the documents.

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10 minutes ago, pedroinlondon said:

Hi Alan

 

Thanks but I really do not wish to have a third party involved, and definitely not a solicitor.

I think the buyer trusts me and will send me the money, but I just want to make sure I'm handling the paperwork correctly.

With this new facility of checking one's bank balance over the phone it should be easy, I hope.

Also, the bank transfer in addition to a pre-signed documents would be good enough proof that a sale had taken place, would it not?

 

I'm mostly concerned about the suitability of the documents.

What goes in can go out. I would move the money immediately from my bank account to another account with another bank

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Sorry to hear you are selling up. I remember you from when I moored in Blomfield Road.

 

Your Bill of Sale document would be fine, but always add detail, such as dates payments are to be made, where the boat is to be delivered and when, what happens if delivery is delayed, boat sold 'as is' or 'as seen', etc.

As was suggested, make sure the money is cleared and cannot be removed from your account.

There are some shady people around

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1 hour ago, pedroinlondon said:

Both buyers would require the boat to be delivered a long way away from where it is now, which I am very happy to oblige as it will be a sort of farewell to my beloved vessel, but I do not wish to have that on the contract, and I am only willing to take off after the money is in my account.

 

That would concern me as a buyer.

 

If the conditions of sale require the boat delivering somewhere, I would insist on that being in the contract and I would not make full payment until it was at the agreed location.  Admittedly I wouldn't want to buy a boat this way at all, but if I did I'd only agree to a deposit with balance on delivery.

 

From your side, you say it's a "long way" - what happens if a stoppage prevents you taking the boat there by water?  You'll be morally obliged to pay for cranes and a truck to get the boat to the destination on time, which could be thousands of pounds.

 

 

 

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On your plan, once the money hits your account (and the boat belongs to the buyer)  you both need to check the insurance position of you operating their boat.  The worst case scenario might be that the boat sinks, is uninsured, but you still have an obligation to deliver it!

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I think I'd have a separate "contract"  for the delivery aspect covering whose insurance it's under and stating conditons eg you take reasonable care of it. Timescales etc.

Basically just put in writing what you both agreed doesn't need to be complex or need a solicitor but does make sure you both have the same understanding.

If you have all the money for the boat then it seems to me the purchaser is taking the most  risk here. 

 

Im not so sure it would be easy for the money to be taken back just like that  

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The points everyone is making are valid, and by not being willing to have the details of the sale included in the contract I think you may be leaving yourself wide open for 'problems'.

 

Are there any particular reasons behind you not wanting to have any more paperwork / agreements other than :

 

"I sell you my boat and I acknowledge receipt of £xxxxx"

 

 

There is a scam running which sounds very similar to your sitation.

 

Buyer buys a car / boat / caravan etc having pad 'up front', seller delivers the purchase, a week later buyer says that despite paying up front the seller has not delivered the car/boat/caravan and claims the money back from the seller.

 

The buyer ends up with both the money and the car/boat/caravan.

 

It is a very well known scam on ebay but has now also made it out into the real world.

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1 hour ago, Yank on the Cut said:

Sorry to hear you are selling up. I remember you from when I moored in Blomfield Road.

 

Your Bill of Sale document would be fine, but always add detail, such as dates payments are to be made, where the boat is to be delivered and when, what happens if delivery is delayed, boat sold 'as is' or 'as seen', etc.

As was suggested, make sure the money is cleared and cannot be removed from your account.

There are some shady people around

Thanks Yank. I'll add anything relevant to this deal.

Money cannot be removed by a personal account once it is deposited unless by the account holder, I don't think.

31 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

The points everyone is making are valid, and by not being willing to have the details of the sale included in the contract I think you may be leaving yourself wide open for 'problems'.

 

Are there any particular reasons behind you not wanting to have any more paperwork / agreements other than :

 

"I sell you my boat and I acknowledge receipt of £xxxxx"

 

 

There is a scam running which sounds very similar to your sitation.

 

Buyer buys a car / boat / caravan etc having pad 'up front', seller delivers the purchase, a week later buyer says that despite paying up front the seller has not delivered the car/boat/caravan and claims the money back from the seller.

 

The buyer ends up with both the money and the car/boat/caravan.

 

It is a very well known scam on ebay but has now also made it out into the real world.

I'd never hear that one before. On a massive boat and in London that would be quite impossible but I'm interested in knowing about that scam for any other sales I may be involved in the future.

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2 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

What goes in can go out. I would move the money immediately from my bank account to another account with another bank

I don't understand that one. Can anyone but the bank account holder remove money from a bank account?

How?

49 minutes ago, Cheese said:

On your plan, once the money hits your account (and the boat belongs to the buyer)  you both need to check the insurance position of you operating their boat.  The worst case scenario might be that the boat sinks, is uninsured, but you still have an obligation to deliver it!

Yes that is definitely a concern but I'm only at the stage of deciding what document of sale is appropriate at the moment.

 

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20 minutes ago, pedroinlondon said:

I don't understand that one. Can anyone but the bank account holder remove money from a bank account?

How?

 

Do you remember when Jeremy Clarkson thought the same as you, and wrote about it in his newspaper column.

 

He was so confident that he published his bank account details in the newspaper, within a couple of days he had been 'hacked' and had direct debits added to his bank account sending money to a charity.

It could just as easily been a transaction of £100,000 to someones personal account.

 

You (will have) given someone you don't know your bank account details, I think you do need to seriously reconsider your concept of security.

 

BBC NEWS | Entertainment | Clarkson stung after bank prank

 

"All you'll be able to do with them is put money into my account. Not take it out. Honestly, I've never known such a palaver about nothing," he told readers.

But he was proved wrong, as the 47-year-old wrote in his Sunday Times column.

 

"I opened my bank statement this morning to find out that someone has set up a direct debit which automatically takes £500 from my account," he said.

"The bank cannot find out who did this because of the Data Protection Act and they cannot stop it from happening again.

 

"I was wrong and I have been punished for my mistake."

 

 

 

 

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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I think you should do one of two approaches:

1. You move the boat to the agreed location in your own time and at your own expense. You then complete the sale there and then. You could ask for a small advance deposit as a gesture of good faith, returnable if you don't deliver the boat on time, but not otherwise. That way all the moving is done under your current ownership, licence, insurance etc. And if the sale falls through the worst is that your boat is away from its usual area 

2. You sell the boat where it is, and at the time enter into a separate second contract to move the boat, which is now owned, licenced and insured by the new owner. You don't start the move until he has produced copies of the licence and insurance ( including confirmation that it covers you moving the boat on the new owner's behalf), and he has confirmed in writing that he has engaged your services as a boat mover.

 

But standing back from the detail, we are frequently told that the demand for boats is highest in London. Why not just sell to someone willing to collect in London?

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2 minutes ago, David Mack said:

I think you should do one of two approaches:

1. You move the boat to the agreed location in your own time and at your own expense. You then complete the sale there and then. You could ask for a small advance deposit as a gesture of good faith, returnable if you don't deliver the boat on time, but not otherwise. That way all the moving is done under your current ownership, licence, insurance etc. And if the sale falls through the worst is that your boat is away from its usual area 

2. You sell the boat where it is, and at the time enter into a separate second contract to move the boat, which is now owned, licenced and insured by the new owner. You don't start the move until he has produced copies of the licence and insurance ( including confirmation that it covers you moving the boat on the new owner's behalf), and he has confirmed in writing that he has engaged your services as a boat mover.

 

But standing back from the detail, we are frequently told that the demand for boats is highest in London. Why not just sell to someone willing to collect in London?

Thanks David

The buyer is not an experienced driver and there's central London and a tunnel in between where the boat is and where he wants it to be.

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3 minutes ago, pedroinlondon said:

Thanks David

The buyer is not an experienced driver and there's central London and a tunnel in between where the boat is and where he wants it to be.

 

Well he could always engage the services of a professional boat mover. There are one or two on the forum.

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16 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Do you remember when Jeremy Clarkson thought the same as you, and wrote about it in his newspaper column.

 

He was so confident that he published his bank account details in the newspaper, within a couple of days he had been 'hacked' and had direct debits added to his bank account sending money to a charity.

It could just as easily been a transaction of £100,000 to someones personal account.

 

You (will have) told someone you don't know your bank account details, I think you do need to seriously reconsider your concept of security.

 

BBC NEWS | Entertainment | Clarkson stung after bank prank

 

"All you'll be able to do with them is put money into my account. Not take it out. Honestly, I've never known such a palaver about nothing," he told readers.

But he was proved wrong, as the 47-year-old wrote in his Sunday Times column.

 

"I opened my bank statement this morning to find out that someone has set up a direct debit which automatically takes £500 from my account," he said.

"The bank cannot find out who did this because of the Data Protection Act and they cannot stop it from happening again.

 

"I was wrong and I have been punished for my mistake."

 

 

 

 

Wow. I did know know about that. 

Well if he published his details on the paper, and being a wealthy and well known person, I suppose he posed a challenge to the best hacking minds all over the globe. 

Scary stuff.

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1 minute ago, pedroinlondon said:

The buyer is not an experienced driver and there's central London and a tunnel in between where the boat is and where he wants it to be.

 

 

I was expecting somewhere like Leeds or Wales as being a "long way" from London.  Is crossing London not just a few hours rather than a few weeks as a delivery trip?

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Just now, David Mack said:

 

Well he could always engage the services of a professional boat mover. There are one or two on the forum.

I'm really just trying to get the boat ownership papers organised, following the payment.

The delivery of the boat is a.courtesy from my part after the sale is done.

I shouldn't have mentioned it, in hindsight, as that's just a detail.

1 minute ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

 

I was expecting somewhere like Leeds or Wales as being a "long way" from London.  Is crossing London not just a few hours rather than a few weeks as a delivery trip?

Yes :)

1 hour ago, jonathanA said:

I think I'd have a separate "contract"  for the delivery aspect covering whose insurance it's under and stating conditons eg you take reasonable care of it. Timescales etc.

Basically just put in writing what you both agreed doesn't need to be complex or need a solicitor but does make sure you both have the same understanding.

If you have all the money for the boat then it seems to me the purchaser is taking the most  risk here. 

 

Im not so sure it would be easy for the money to be taken back just like that  

That's what I thought too...

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3 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

That would concern me as a buyer.

 

If the conditions of sale require the boat delivering somewhere, I would insist on that being in the contract and I would not make full payment until it was at the agreed location.  Admittedly I wouldn't want to buy a boat this way at all, but if I did I'd only agree to a deposit with balance on delivery.

 

From your side, you say it's a "long way" - what happens if a stoppage prevents you taking the boat there by water?  You'll be morally obliged to pay for cranes and a truck to get the boat to the destination on time, which could be thousands of pounds.

 

 

 

And who will be insuring the boat, If something happens is it your boat or their boat. Once sold the buyer will need to licence it and for that they will need insurance, will that cover you.

 

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2 hours ago, pedroinlondon said:

I don't understand that one. Can anyone but the bank account holder remove money from a bank account?

How? 

 

As I understand it if you can convince your bank that you have wrongly paid money into someone else's account they can claw it back. I don't have evidence for that and may be wrong but I am not risking several thousand pounds 

  • Greenie 1
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9 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

As I understand it if you can convince your bank that you have wrongly paid money into someone else's account they can claw it back. I don't have evidence for that and may be wrong but I am not risking several thousand pounds 


There is a difference between

  • paying the money to the wrong account (eg getting the account number or sort code wrong). See below- the moral is act quickly;
  • Being persuaded by a fraudster to send money to them. You do have some protection here, not to recover the funds from the recipient but from your bank
  • Sending money to the correct person, and then having a dispute with them. Not sure the banks can do much to help on this one?


https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2016/01/sent-money-to-the-wrong-bank-account-now-it-should-be-easier-to-get-it-back/
 

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2 hours ago, pedroinlondon said:

I don't understand that one. Can anyone but the bank account holder remove money from a bank account?

How?

 

It's happened several times with a charity bank account that I used to run. Someone had used the bank details for a direct debit form for a Sky subscription. Most of the time DD forms are not validated with the customer's bank, they just wait for a complaint (and then make a refund). Fortunately I did do a monthly bank reconciliation, but I would guess most private individuals don't bother and if the fraudster is not too greedy they may get away with it.

 

One solution to this is to have a bank account that will only accept incoming payments, and then sweep the balance to the "hidden" main account, from which payments can be made. But that does cost bank fees I think. 

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6 minutes ago, pedroinlondon said:

Thanks for all the info regarding banking scams but that's not really what I was looking to have answered.

I'm more looking for suggestions for Bill of Sale or other documents suitable for a private boat purchase.

Thanks

 

Legally nothing is required.

The document you initially showed will be sufficient.

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