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Cabin height causing search issues. Broker missinformation.


OTL

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HI all

 

Yesterday my partner and I went up to the midlands (a 300 mile round trip) to view a boat which I'm intending to use for liveaboard purposes.

 

We first found the boat listed on brokerage site and loved it. I called them up immediately to check the cabin height to see if I could fit. I was assured the vessel had head room of 6'6 which was great news.

 

We had been swooning after this boat for the best part of a month, we also put down a holding deposit on it so we could be the first people to view it once lockdown ended. This ended up being slightly pointless as I was then told by the broker that we were able to come view the boat whenever we wanted because it would be my primary source of residency.

 

Anyway after the long drive up, I stepped foot on the boat and *donk* the top of my head was grazing the ceiling. I knew within 5 seconds that this wasn't the boat for me as I was unable to fit inside it comfortably. I then made a measurement and saw that the cabin height was in fact 6'3.

 

I then when to the bathroom area to see if the shower was any different but no. The shower must have had headroom of 5'10 (raised bath platford)

 

We were then told that the sellers had given those measurements to the broker so that's what they were going off and was there reason for giving me the missinformation of a taller cabin hieght.

 

I would like to know if anyone else has experienced this issue when looking for a boat and also if there are any particular boat builders who typically supply a generous headroom of 6'6 and above?

 

Any advice would be appriated because I feel I'm back to square one now.

 

Cheers.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, OTL said:

HI all

 

Yesterday my partner and I went up to the midlands (a 300 mile round trip) to view a boat which I'm intending to use for liveaboard purposes.

 

We first found the boat listed on brokerage site and loved it. I called them up immediately to check the cabin height to see if I could fit. I was assured the vessel had head room of 6'6 which was great news.

 

We had been swooning after this boat for the best part of a month, we also put down a holding deposit on it so we could be the first people to view it once lockdown ended. This ended up being slightly pointless as I was then told by the broker that we were able to come view the boat whenever we wanted because it would be my primary source of residency.

 

Anyway after the long drive up, I stepped foot on the boat and *donk* the top of my head was grazing the ceiling. I knew within 5 seconds that this wasn't the boat for me as I was unable to fit inside it comfortably. I then made a measurement and saw that the cabin height was in fact 6'3.

 

I then when to the bathroom area to see if the shower was any different but no. The shower must have had headroom of 5'10 (raised bath platford)

 

We were then told that the sellers had given those measurements to the broker so that's what they were going off and was there reason for giving me the missinformation of a taller cabin hieght.

 

I would like to know if anyone else has experienced this issue when looking for a boat and also if there are any particular boat builders who typically supply a generous headroom of 6'6 and above?

 

Any advice would be appriated because I feel I'm back to square one now.

 

Cheers.

 

 

 

 

You will tend to find that few brokers actually 'do anything' with a boat (including measurements), they simply provide a mooring and advertising. As often as not the seller will do the 'write up' and descriptions and you will find clauses on the brokers details something like :

 

"The information in these details is provided by the owner and is, to the best of our knowledge, correct"

 

More modern boats have a greater headroom because the base plate is thicker so there is much less ballast needed, and the floor can be several inches lower.

What age of boat / budget are you looking at ?

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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You need a boat with a 15 plus mil bottom so ballast is not required just a few engineering bricks here and there for trim. Most boats have 10 mill and space for lots of ballast which takes headroom. 6ft 6 is very high and hard in a narrowboat due to constraints of such as tunnels etc.

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

You will tend to find that few brokers actually 'do anything' with a boat (including measurements), they simply provide a mooring and advertising. As often as not the seller will do the 'write up' and descriptions and you will find clauses on the brokers details something like :

 

"The information in these details is provided by the owner and is, to the best of our knowledge, correct"

 

More modern boats have a greater headroom because the base plate is thicker so there is much less ballast needed, and the floor can be several inches lower.

What age of boat / budget are you looking at ?

Snap.

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1 minute ago, mrsmelly said:

You need a boat with a 15 plus mil bottom so ballast is not required just a few engineering bricks here and there for trim. Most boats have 10 mill and space for lots of ballast which takes headroom. 6ft 6 is very high and hard in a narrowboat due to constraints of such as tunnels etc.

 

Our last NB (Hull manufactured by Reeves) was a 13mm base plate and a good 6'6" headroom down the centre of the boat, but a little less at the sides due to curvature of the roof.

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Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Our last NB (Hull manufactured by Reeves) was a 13mm base plate and a good 6'6" headroom down the centre of the boat, but a little less at the sides due to curvature of the roof.

Yes my Udson was a 15 mil base which allowed a low roof line. The interior height was standard whatever that is but outside she was a tad lower than the bog standard build such as colecraft.

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17 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

You will tend to find that few brokers actually 'do anything' with a boat (including measurements), they simply provide a mooring and advertising. As often as not the seller will do the 'write up' and descriptions and you will find clauses on the brokers details something like :

 

"The information in these details is provided by the owner and is, to the best of our knowledge, correct"

 

 

Both ABNB and Rugby Boat Sales take time and effort to do their own boat listings and layout diagrams including measurements amongst others.

Liverpool hulls usually have quite a high headroom due to the domed roof.

 

 

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42 minutes ago, OTL said:

HI all

 

Yesterday my partner and I went up to the midlands (a 300 mile round trip) to view a boat which I'm intending to use for liveaboard purposes.

 

We first found the boat listed on brokerage site and loved it. I called them up immediately to check the cabin height to see if I could fit. I was assured the vessel had head room of 6'6 which was great news.

 

We had been swooning after this boat for the best part of a month, we also put down a holding deposit on it so we could be the first people to view it once lockdown ended. This ended up being slightly pointless as I was then told by the broker that we were able to come view the boat whenever we wanted because it would be my primary source of residency.

 

Anyway after the long drive up, I stepped foot on the boat and *donk* the top of my head was grazing the ceiling. I knew within 5 seconds that this wasn't the boat for me as I was unable to fit inside it comfortably. I then made a measurement and saw that the cabin height was in fact 6'3.

 

I then when to the bathroom area to see if the shower was any different but no. The shower must have had headroom of 5'10 (raised bath platford)

 

We were then told that the sellers had given those measurements to the broker so that's what they were going off and was there reason for giving me the missinformation of a taller cabin hieght.

 

I would like to know if anyone else has experienced this issue when looking for a boat and also if there are any particular boat builders who typically supply a generous headroom of 6'6 and above?

 

Any advice would be appriated because I feel I'm back to square one now.

 

Cheers.

 

 

 

Somewhere within the boat description there will be a sentance along the lines of 'any prospective buyer is advised to verify the contents of these details'. As a get out clause.

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45 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

You will tend to find that few brokers actually 'do anything' with a boat (including measurements), they simply provide a mooring and advertising. As often as not the seller will do the 'write up' and descriptions and you will find clauses on the brokers details something like :

 

"The information in these details is provided by the owner and is, to the best of our knowledge, correct"

 

More modern boats have a greater headroom because the base plate is thicker so there is much less ballast needed, and the floor can be several inches lower.

What age of boat / budget are you looking at ?

 

Yes it seems to be the case that the boat owner is responsible for providing the measurements. It is unfortunate, though, that cabin height being such an essential requirement was not double checked or something to that effect. We called up specifically to check the cabin height and still had our time wasted. I wish it was something that was readily disclosed by boat sellers.

My budget is £50,000 and it seems that I can get a late 90s/early 2000s boat in that price range which is of good quality. As I understand it, the newer ones are likely to be taller. Anything before the 90s looks to be very short in general. It's good to know about the more modern boats!

19 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

Somewhere within the boat description there will be a sentance along the lines of 'any prospective buyer is advised to verify the contents of these details'. As a get out clause.

noted!

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2 minutes ago, OTL said:

 

Yes it seems to be the case that the boat owner is responsible for providing the measurements. It is unfortunate, though, that cabin height being such an essential requirement was not double checked or something to that effect. We called up specifically to check the cabin height and still had our time wasted. I wish it was something that was readily disclosed by boat sellers.

My budget is £50,000 and it seems that I can get a late 90s/early 2000s boat in that price range which is of good quality. As I understand it, the newer ones are likely to be taller. Anything before the 90s looks to be very short in general. It's good to know about the more modern boats!

noted!

 

When our boat went on sale the broker sent me a draft version of the sales brochure to verify the content. There were a couple of issues that looked they had carried over from the previous version (we bought the boat from the same broker). One was the number of leisure batteries, we had reduced that by one during our ownership.  If the broker and/or the seller are not dilligent in checking stuff errors can creep in.

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8 minutes ago, OTL said:

Yes it seems to be the case that the boat owner is responsible for providing the measurements.

 

As Matty suggests there are a couple of 'good brokers', but they are outnumbered by the 'bad' ones.

One of the worst is 'in the Midlands' it may have been the one you visited.

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12 minutes ago, OTL said:

 

Yes it seems to be the case that the boat owner is responsible for providing the measurements. It is unfortunate, though, that cabin height being such an essential requirement was not double checked or something to that effect. We called up specifically to check the cabin height and still had our time wasted. I wish it was something that was readily disclosed by boat sellers.

My budget is £50,000 and it seems that I can get a late 90s/early 2000s boat in that price range which is of good quality. As I understand it, the newer ones are likely to be taller. Anything before the 90s looks to be very short in general. It's good to know about the more modern boats!

noted!

bloody nora...........50 grand for a late nineties boat :o

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For reference I have just measured the headroom in my 2005 Liverpool Boat company built boat. It is 6'6" on the centreline and 6'2" at the cabin sides. It was sold as a lined sailaway hull so this should be fairly typical of their hulls of that era.

 

Good luck with your search.

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Narrow canals were designed around poor 18th century boaters, who typically didn't get a lot to eat when they were growing up. Makes  fitting out boats for modern people at the upper percentile of height a bit tricky. Especially as many boats now have a shallow draft to cope with poorly dredged canals. This leaves less space to still fit under bridges.

My 2007 Piper shell, lined by them, has 6'5" of headroom at the centre, and a much flatter roof profile than a Liverpool hull, so better if it has side corridors. Look for centre corridors, doors and through bathrooms in descriptions to keep walking in the centre, where height is going to be greatest.

Jen

Edited by Jen-in-Wellies
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5 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

My 2007 Piper shell, lined by them, has 6'5" of headroom at the centre,

As does my Piper. Trouble is, it gives her a bit more air draft than is ideal, so there's a compromise for the OP to find here. There are many boats besides narrowboats that don't have 6'6" of headroom and other tall folk still use them. Think also air draft would be my advice.

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10 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

As does my Piper. Trouble is, it gives her a bit more air draft than is ideal, so there's a compromise for the OP to find here. There are many boats besides narrowboats that don't have 6'6" of headroom and other tall folk still use them. Think also air draft would be my advice.

You are right. Mine only fit in to Stanage tunnel with the water tank full. Froghall Tunnel was a no go. You can get more cabin height in a lower air draft by going for a deeper draft, but that then restricts the places you can get in to the sides to moor. It is all a compromise. Old sailing ships were often built with very low cabin heights. Taller sailors, after they had concussed themselves on beams a few times, learnt to stoop. Narrowboats have long cabins, so people expect to be able to walk normally, rather than shuffle around bent double, like they would in a small yacht cabin. Thicker steel base plates, with reduced concrete ballast help a lot, but these boats tend to be more recent builds and so more expensive.

Edited by Jen-in-Wellies
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18 hours ago, OTL said:

I would like to know if anyone else has experienced this issue when looking for a boat and also if there are any particular boat builders who typically supply a generous headroom of 6'6 and above?

 

Any advice would be appriated because I feel I'm back to square one now.

 

I don't suppose this helps, but our ex working boat with an undercloth conversion has a headroom of well over 6'6".  Mind you, I think you'd need to be less than 5' tall to stand up in the back cabin :)

 

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Apart from lazy brokers, part of the issue is that headroom is not constant throughout the boat.  So, when you expect 6'6" or whatever, is that a absolute minimum or a maximum or a reasonable average along the centre line or along the route through the boat etc?

 

 

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So, I want to by a second-hand car.  I see one I like at the local dealers only to be told that the description they provided may not be correct, they won't guarantee anything about the car, it may not be safe and it won't have a warranty but, if I liked to get it checked out myself by a mechanic, they may negotiate the price if the fault rectification is going to cost more than 5% of the car's value. S*d that you think so off you go to another car dealer. Once there you find their conditions are exactly the same, as is the case at every other car dealer in the land.  

 

Well, that's boat brokerages for you! In no other sales environment I can think of would the public, not to say the powers that be, put it with it but er, boats are different! Scandalous when you think about it. (Yes, I know they sell boats on behalf of the owner so it is 'different'). 

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6 minutes ago, JRT said:

 

Well, that's boat brokerages for you! In no other sales environment I can think of would the public, not to say the powers that be, put it with it but er, boats are different! Scandalous when you think about it. (Yes, I know they sell boats on behalf of the owner so it is 'different'). 

 

Ever had dealings with an estate agent?

Edited by David Mack
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13 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

@haggis Ken was quite tall, what are your beds  and head room like

I have never measured the height of  Kelpie inside but neither of us have a problem - but we are not very tall ? . I think you are probably the tallest person who has been on our boat. Did you have to bend your head? I wouldn't say our bed is extra long but it is long enough for us!

 

haggis

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6 minutes ago, JRT said:

So, I want to by a second-hand car.  I see one I like at the local dealers only to be told that the description they provided may not be correct, they won't guarantee anything about the car, it may not be safe and it won't have a warranty but, if I liked to get it checked out myself by a mechanic, they may negotiate the price if the fault rectification is going to cost more than 5% of the car's value. S*d that you think so off you go to another car dealer. Once there you find their conditions are exactly the same, as is the case at every other car dealer in the land.  

 

Well, that's boat brokerages for you! In no other sales environment I can think of would the public, not to say the powers that be, put it with it but er, boats are different! Scandalous when you think about it. (Yes, I know they sell boats on behalf of the owner so it is 'different'). 

 

 

You are comparing apples with turnips.

 

A car dealer owns the vehicle and has a legal liability to describe the car correctly.

 

A boat broker is advertising the boat on behalf of the seller and neither the seller or the broker have a legal responsibility to accurately describe the boat correctly. It is a PRIVATE sale. If the broker has taken the boat in part exchange and 'owns' the boat then it is a very different story.

 

Try taking the private seller of a car to task over his desciption.

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