What is wrong with most boat service providers?

[RichM]

I found it hard to trust boat related businesses, it got to the stage whereby I assumed most people were out to rip me off. There were a few exceptions but in my personal opinion there's more bad apples than good.

 

By comparison, it's a bit like the car motor trade, but on the next level. Of course, that's just based on my experience, I may have just been unlucky. When I had a boat, I sought recommendations before commissioning any work. 
 

[Ex Brummie]

Whilst the mobile phone has its advantages, as a self employed service engineer, it can be most disruptive if in the middle of a job. I usually try to respond to any messages the same day, or at least the next day.

Increased communication channels also make it easier for people to make what often turn out to be spurious enquiries, where some individuals who have nothing to do and all day to do it, can waste an awful lot of time. One gets used to recognising such calls. 

With boatyards I find it is much better to meet face to face so that each party can be sure they are talking about the same things. It is a standing joke that there is greenwich mean time, British summer time and boatyard time. The problem is always that once your boat is stranded on a hard standing or a dry dock, you have little control over any schedule or delivery promises. 

[koukouvagia]

I think the key to this is building a relationship with the people who work on your boat.  I have. over the years, got to know well an engineer, a fabricator, a dry dock owner, a BSS examiner and painter/signwriter.  Each prefers to be contacted differently: text, email, phone etc.  All of them call back or reply the same day. 

I agree with Ex Brummie about meeting face to face.  When I had our butty rebuilt I used to make a two hundred mile round trip each weekend for six months to discuss  the next stage.  In this way there were no misunderstandings on either side and the work went very smoothly.

I may have been fortunate, but there are some really good tradesmen/women out there.  For example, I recall the time I had broken down and needed a new water pump.  The owner of a chandlery, whom I knew, but not well,  not only replied to my message but drove out specially with the part. 

I think I've posted before about the amazing service and excellent communication I received when I had to have a new hydraulic motor a couple of years ago.

So not all gloom and despondency

 

 

 

 

 

[GRLMK38]

37 minutes ago, koukouvagia said:

I think the key to this is building a relationship with the people who work on your boat.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I agree. 

 

There are many examples of trades people spending hours chasing payment from Customers which does not help with their workload.  In many cases they are adopting mobile credit card readers so they can take payment while on site because the fees outweigh the hassle of chasing cash.  They also have their own 'blacklist' of poor payers, maybe that's why the phone doesn't always get answered.

[Alan de Enfield]

 

If you want something doing (as Benjamin Franklin once said) "ask a busy man" (he is busy for a good reason). It's no help if it is an emergency but for 'planned' maintenance its a good concept. 

 

Our last blacking could only be booked 9 months in advance due to them being fully booked - they were not the cheapest, or the closest but it was worth waiting to get the job done properly.

[LadyG]

2 hours ago, GRLMK38 said:

 

I agree. 

 

There are many examples of trades people spending hours chasing payment from Customers which does not help with their workload.  In many cases they are adopting mobile credit card readers so they can take payment while on site because the fees outweigh the hassle of chasing cash.  They also have their own 'blacklist' of poor payers, maybe that's why the phone doesn't always get answered.

My electrician had actually bought three batteries of his choice, though I suggested I pay for thrm and have them delivered, and he  fitted them three months later, the day before he was due to be replaced.

He had talked to me onsite, and had been back on board at least twice before he stopped answering the phone. How does that make me a bad customer?

Edited March 7, 2021 by LadyG

[Alan de Enfield]

10 minutes ago, LadyG said:

How does that make me a bad customer?

 

 

You have certainly had an extended run of bad-luck, right back to getting thru a number of estate agents when trying to sell you property, to wearing out several boat brokers, to not being able to find a single 'tradesman' that would come back after his first couple of visits.

 

If you didn't have bad luck you'd have no luck at all.

[David Schweizer]

I normally did most of the maintenance work on Helvetia myself, and when I couldn't (or didn't want to) do my own work, I had a short list of peple who I could trust to do a good job for a fair price, and was never dissapointed. For those who require recommendations:-  Steelwork-Roger Farrington,   Engine Repair-Jonathon Hewitt,   Blacking-Tim Hewitt,   Painting-John Sandersdon,  Decorating/Signwriting-Dave Moore.

 

 

Edited March 7, 2021 by David Schweizer

[GRLMK38]

5 hours ago, LadyG said:

My electrician had actually bought three batteries of his choice, though I suggested I pay for thrm and have them delivered, and he  fitted them three months later, the day before he was due to be replaced.

He had talked to me onsite, and had been back on board at least twice before he stopped answering the phone. How does that make me a bad customer?

 

There are bad businesses and bad customers and generally they are drawn together because the good businesses and good customers work them out and steer clear.  My points are not specific to you or anybody else involved in this discussion.  

[ditchcrawler]

You also get the opposite, the one man band who is too helpful and cant refuse to help anyone with a problem. The trouble is he keeps people waiting for ages as he always has more work on than he can really handle.

[GRLMK38]

5 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

You also get the opposite, the one man band who is too helpful and cant refuse to help anyone with a problem. The trouble is he keeps people waiting for ages as he always has more work on than he can really handle.

 

I think we all know at least one of those. 

 

A sales director from years ago always maintained that "No" is the most powerful word in the dictionary, "Yes" being the easy option.  Seems like he always took the easy option and let the back office sort it out once the order was taken!

[doratheexplorer]

On 07/03/2021 at 09:08, koukouvagia said:

I think the key to this is building a relationship with the people who work on your boat.  I have. over the years, got to know well an engineer, a fabricator, a dry dock owner, a BSS examiner and painter/signwriter.  Each prefers to be contacted differently: text, email, phone etc.  All of them call back or reply the same day. 

I agree with Ex Brummie about meeting face to face.  When I had our butty rebuilt I used to make a two hundred mile round trip each weekend for six months to discuss  the next stage.  In this way there were no misunderstandings on either side and the work went very smoothly.

I may have been fortunate, but there are some really good tradesmen/women out there.  For example, I recall the time I had broken down and needed a new water pump.  The owner of a chandlery, whom I knew, but not well,  not only replied to my message but drove out specially with the part. 

I think I've posted before about the amazing service and excellent communication I received when I had to have a new hydraulic motor a couple of years ago.

So not all gloom and despondency

 

 

 

 

 

This doesn't always work.  I built what I thought was a great relationship with a mobile engineer, who is widely recommended.  Had various jobs done.  I was always very flexible about when they could come and always paid straight away and often gave a little extra as a thankyou.  I thought we were friends (you know, sort of).  Then last year, I tried to ask them about a job.  Tried texting, phoning etc.  No reply for ages.  Eventually got a text reply after about 2 weeks to say they wouldn't come because they didn't like where I was moored (never been a problem before).  I said no problem I'm moving on in a short while, and heading in their direction.  No reply.  Tried to ring a few more times and nothing.  I gave up.  It was actually pretty hurtful.  No valid explanation and no contact since.  Weirdly we're still 'friends' on facebook.  But he won't reply on there either.  I found myself questioning whether I'd done something to offend him but I can't think of anything.  Even writing this now is making me feel a little upset about it.

 

Since then I've turned to RCR for getting things done and they've really impressed me.  Great communication.  Turn up on time.  Fair prices and good quality work.  And they never make me feel like I need to apologise for inconveniencing them.

[Puffling]

Having recently sent out a specs list asking for quotations on a boat build I wanted, I feel fairly well appraised of the "service mentality" of some of the industry. Around 30 emails to advertisers in the two leading canal magazines, plus a few others that came up from searches.

 

I'd say three distinctive classes of responders came across:
1) those who responded at once, often the same day, with a full reaction to what I had been asking about, with a detailed breakdown of their prices;

2) the largest group were those who replied promptly but didn't notice some of the questions I had - even a follow up message sometimes left those unanswered and I couldn't escape the feeling they were being evasive;

3) those who replied only after repeated messages and phone calls, but nonetheless were helpful and not necessarily sloppy.

 

Only one of the original 30 has not replied at all, which I suppose is something positive. Another plus is that all replies were polite. But generally no - I'm not impressed. In general, it was the family-run outfits that seemed keenest on getting business and most responsive. I don't know if there's something in that, that they feel closest to the customer, or just the ones with the keenest eye on their balance sheets.

[Mad Harold]

53 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

This doesn't always work.  I built what I thought was a great relationship with a mobile engineer, who is widely recommended.  Had various jobs done.  I was always very flexible about when they could come and always paid straight away and often gave a little extra as a thankyou.  I thought we were friends (you know, sort of).  Then last year, I tried to ask them about a job.  Tried texting, phoning etc.  No reply for ages.  Eventually got a text reply after about 2 weeks to say they wouldn't come because they didn't like where I was moored (never been a problem before).  I said no problem I'm moving on in a short while, and heading in their direction.  No reply.  Tried to ring a few more times and nothing.  I gave up.  It was actually pretty hurtful.  No valid explanation and no contact since.  Weirdly we're still 'friends' on facebook.  But he won't reply on there either.  I found myself questioning whether I'd done something to offend him but I can't think of anything.  Even writing this now is making me feel a little upset about it.

 

Since then I've turned to RCR for getting things done and they've really impressed me.  Great communication.  Turn up on time.  Fair prices and good quality work.  And they never make me feel like I need to apologise for inconveniencing them.

Perhaps you didn't give him any chocolate biscuits with his coffee.?

[Alan de Enfield]

9 minutes ago, Puffling said:

Having recently sent out a specs list asking for quotations on a boat build I wanted,

 

 

I would suggest that there is a big difference between someone wanting to spend (between) £50k - £300k on having a boat built in their nice cozy workshop, and someone "wanting a fuel filter changing with the boat with no access, stuck miles away down a muddy towpath and its snowing", and then moan about the £50 call out fee.

 

There are good and bad contractors in all walks of life, just as there are bad customers.

 

One of the last things I did before retiring was to 'clean out our customer list'. We had over 5000 customers whose order value was £25 or under and it was uneconomical to actually service them. It cost more in labour to pick and pack than the order generated.

We took on some distributors spread around the country, sold to them in bulk (at prices allowing them to sell to our previous customers), passed on the names of our custmers and ended up making a better profit than previously on a vastly smaller number of customers.

 

Somtimes customers are just 'not worth having'.

[Richard10002]

On 07/03/2021 at 09:47, GRLMK38 said:

 

I agree. 

 

There are many examples of trades people spending hours chasing payment from Customers which does not help with their workload.  In many cases they are adopting mobile credit card readers so they can take payment while on site because the fees outweigh the hassle of chasing cash.  They also have their own 'blacklist' of poor payers, maybe that's why the phone doesn't always get answered.

The latter applies solely to poor payers, and no one else. I doubt that anyone here who is complaining is a poor payer on a blacklist?

[David Mack]

22 minutes ago, Puffling said:

Having recently sent out a specs list asking for quotations on a boat build I wanted, I feel fairly well appraised of the "service mentality" of some of the industry.

 

Most boatbuilders are in the business of building a reasonably standard product which they know will sell in the mainstream market.  A potential customer who sends out a detailed list of requirements has a high potential to be an awkward customer, always questioning decisions and changing his mind about what he wants, and probably being unwilling to pay for all those late changes. If business is tough the boatbuilder swallows hard and quotes a price that he thinks is high enough to cover the aggravation. If there are easier ways of making money he either politely declines or doesn't bother to reply.

You may not be that awkward picky customer, but the boatbuilder doesn't know that.

[Higgs]

2 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

Most boatbuilders are in the business of building a reasonably standard product which they know will sell in the mainstream market.  A potential customer who sends out a detailed list of requirements has a high potential to be an awkward customer, always questioning decisions and changing his mind about what he wants, and probably being unwilling to pay for all those late changes. If business is tough the boatbuilder swallows hard and quotes a price that he thinks is high enough to cover the aggravation. If there are easier ways of making money he either politely declines or doesn't bother to reply.

You may not be that awkward picky customer, but the boatbuilder doesn't know that.

 

 

Should work from a written brief. 

 

 

[doratheexplorer]

22 minutes ago, Mad Harold said:

Perhaps you didn't give him any chocolate biscuits with his coffee.?

You know, I'm pretty sure I did!

[ditchcrawler]

24 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

Most boatbuilders are in the business of building a reasonably standard product which they know will sell in the mainstream market.  A potential customer who sends out a detailed list of requirements has a high potential to be an awkward customer, always questioning decisions and changing his mind about what he wants, and probably being unwilling to pay for all those late changes. If business is tough the boatbuilder swallows hard and quotes a price that he thinks is high enough to cover the aggravation. If there are easier ways of making money he either politely declines or doesn't bother to reply.

You may not be that awkward picky customer, but the boatbuilder doesn't know that.

I went to visit Steve Hudson when I wanted a hull with my list of requirements and we sat down in his office and discussed it. The discussion went along the lines of me saying I would like this and Steve answering "This is how I do it" . I didn't end up with a Hudson.

[BWM]

I've had mixed experiences with canal based trades, a minority being chancers but these thrive on the inexperience of their customer base (me included - the learning curve is steep!). The others being the experts, i have found most of these to be jaded by the expectations and behaviour of their client base. Many have unrealistic expectations of time lines or cost, and every third job is life or death and needs doing yesterday. 

  We recently had some extensive carpentry carried out which involved a lengthy stay at a boatyard - much extended because of people dropping in or phoning,  with 90 percent being the wondering aloud of the lonely!

[cuthound]

I've always found that the canalside businesses that also operate a hire fleet are much better at sticking to timescales and estimates, so long as you don't want a job doing urgently on a turnaround day.

[Tony Brooks]

44 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

Most boatbuilders are in the business of building a reasonably standard product which they know will sell in the mainstream market.  A potential customer who sends out a detailed list of requirements has a high potential to be an awkward customer, always questioning decisions and changing his mind about what he wants, and probably being unwilling to pay for all those late changes. If business is tough the boatbuilder swallows hard and quotes a price that he thinks is high enough to cover the aggravation. If there are easier ways of making money he either politely declines or doesn't bother to reply.

You may not be that awkward picky customer, but the boatbuilder doesn't know that.

 

But if the boat builder has written instructions then as long as they adhere to them there should be less room for comebacks that from   customer who wants to do everything verbally.

 

I am still miffed about a yard not far from Norton Junction that got properly drawn plans for the aft cockpit rail plus written instructions and then ignored it and claimed that such plans were only "indicative". Made my job of fitting the down-sheeting more difficult. They also put the rail on offset to one side. That made the job more difficult again.  Then thee was the reflooring of the gas locker that resulted in not being able to store a full complement of 19Kg    gas bottles plus a potential gas leak through the floor into the boat, all because they could not be bothered to remove a bolt holding up a wiring clip.

 

I am afraid you need to build up experience of tradespeople but even that does not always work as Dora showed and too many people won't accept that sometimes a job goes wrong. As long as that is dealt with promptly then its all that can be expected.

 

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, cuthound said:

I've always found that the canalside businesses that also operate a hire fleet are much better at sticking to timescales and estimates, so long as you don't want a job doing urgently on a turnaround day.

 

Recognising that some jobs will for no fault of the company take more time and that a breakdown really needs sorting ASAP I always gave an "I want it completed by xxxxx" instruction  that gave several weeks to work it into their work schedule. Unfortunately that did not always result in the boat being done on time. I am sure some businesses work to different time and service standards to the norm - whatever that is.

[doratheexplorer]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Recognising that some jobs will for no fault of the company take more time and that a breakdown really needs sorting ASAP I always gave an "I want it completed by xxxxx" instruction  that gave several weeks to work it into their work schedule. Unfortunately that did not always result in the boat being done on time. I am sure some businesses work to different time and service standards to the norm - whatever that is.

When taking my boat to a boat yard, I tried to be flexible and let them lead. I let them tell me when they wanted me to come.  The jobs were about a week's work.  3 weeks after arriving, they still hadn't started.  Their excuse? "We're busy".  The whole place was totally disorganised and chaotic.  Nobody seemed to know what they were doing or when.  Countless boats half worked on and then left unfinished.  And this was a very well known and well established yard.  Part of the work (blacking) was then done very poorly and the boat was put back in the water with the blacking still wet.  Unsurprisingly I go elsewhere now.

Edited March 8, 2021 by doratheexplorer