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The Paddle Gear Thread (formerly Cheshire Paddle Gear)


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32 minutes ago, Ray T said:

Picture from CRT Archive.

 

Old and new locks on the Warwick to Birmingham section of the GU.

Old & new WK section GU.jpg

 

That's a fascinating picture! It's obvious from the remains of the narrow locks and the surviving five original locks at Camp Hill that the W&B/W&N locks had ground paddles at both ends - I didn't know they had gate paddles as well

4 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Do you have any information on what the spindle locking mechanism was like ?

 I tried to see on the photographs but it's too dark around the spindle

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1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

Do you have any information on what the spindle locking mechanism was like ?

Ham Baker

 

 Improvements in or connected with penstocks, sluice valves and the like United Kingdom Patent 387951-A

387951-A is referenced by 1 patents.

387,951. Sluice valves. BENCE, E. H., Municipal Engineering Works, Langley Green, Birmingham, HAM, P. S., 70, Victoria Street, London, and MORGAN, E. I., 8, Wolverhampton Road, Sedgley, Birmingham. Aug. 24, 1932, No. 23694. [Class 68 (ii).] A sluice valve is operated by screw gearing of such a pitch that the valve, when raised and released, will descend by its own weight. The Figure shows a gearing for raising a flat sliding valve, not shown, at the lower end of a non-revolving rod 14. It comprises a gear case 19, 20, containing bevel wheels 23, 24 rotatable so that the nut 35 raises the rod 14. When raised, it is retained by pawls 33a, 33b engaging with ratchet wheels 30, 31 ; these may be released by overturning a link 34, and the valve then descends. The stop 37 is fitted with a buffer 38, or may function as a dashpot.; In a modification, the rod 14 is keyed to the wheel 23, and rotates in a nut at the upper end of a tube attached to the valve rod. Buffers are fitted at the lower edge of valve ; they may be removed to enable the valve to be removed.

Title Improvements in or connected with penstocks, sluice valves and the like Application Number GB19320023694 19320824 Publication Number 387951 (A) Application Date August 24, 1932 Publication Date February 16, 1933 Assignee Edwin Ivor Morgan
Paul Sison Ham
Edgar Henry Bence IPC F16K 31/44
F16K 31/53 

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16 hours ago, magpie patrick said:

 

That's a fascinating picture! It's obvious from the remains of the narrow locks and the surviving five original locks at Camp Hill that the W&B/W&N locks had ground paddles at both ends - I didn't know they had gate paddles as well

The locks on the GJC had gate paddles added in the mid-19th century to speed traffic in competition with railways. The same thing happened on the L&LC - and there are documents to show this happened. In general, it could be that gate paddles were fitted to locks on the more successful canals around this time. It is often the least successful which survived with no gate paddles.

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55 minutes ago, Pluto said:

The locks on the GJC had gate paddles added in the mid-19th century to speed traffic in competition with railways. The same thing happened on the L&LC - and there are documents to show this happened. In general, it could be that gate paddles were fitted to locks on the more successful canals around this time. It is often the least successful which survived with no gate paddles.

I acknowledge  and accept that, and it's a debate we've often had and has led you and I to at least one canal side walk to debate this! What intrigues me is why some canals plumped for ground paddles at the bottom of the lock. The L&L was a major player in this, but a few others such as the Northern Stratford also had ground paddles at both ends. The northern GU did both before and after widening.

 

At the top it's obvious the advantage of a ground paddle, as in deeper locks the water from a gate paddle will enter above lower water level, possibly a long way above, but I'm less clear at the bottom where the paddle openings are under water. 

Also, I'm not surprised the W&N/W&B had top gate paddles, I just didn't know they had

 

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On 14/03/2021 at 11:38, magpie patrick said:

I acknowledge  and accept that, and it's a debate we've often had and has led you and I to at least one canal side walk to debate this! What intrigues me is why some canals plumped for ground paddles at the bottom of the lock. The L&L was a major player in this, but a few others such as the Northern Stratford also had ground paddles at both ends. The northern GU did both before and after widening.

 

At the top it's obvious the advantage of a ground paddle, as in deeper locks the water from a gate paddle will enter above lower water level, possibly a long way above, but I'm less clear at the bottom where the paddle openings are under water. 

Also, I'm not surprised the W&N/W&B had top gate paddles, I just didn't know they had

 

 

I have seen other old photos of narrow locks on the section from Napton to Knowle and in these none of the locks had top gate paddles, just ground ones.

I suspect the lock in the picture above was an exception and that the Warwick and Birmingham/Napton standard was top ground paddles but no gate paddles. There appears to be only one top ground paddle at the lock above, so maybe that's why there are gate paddles fitted too.

 

Not sure it was all about how successful the canal was as to whether gate paddles were fitted. The Trent and Mersey narrow locks north of Harecastle Tunnel didn't have gate paddles, and currently to the south only the locks with one ground paddle have a gate paddle. The Worcester and Birmingham I don't think has ever had them fitted and there is the question about the northern Staffs and Worcs locks which currently don't have any.

Edited by Philip
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Northwich gear a long way off it's usual territory - Bradford lock on the K&A - the ground paddle on the other side is a pre-closure rack and pinion with a gearbox attached. I'll walk the other flights on the western K&A this summer and see what they've got (although I'm pretty sure this is the only Northwich gear in the area)

20210321_135804.jpg

20210321_135926.jpg

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On 14/03/2021 at 11:38, magpie patrick said:

What intrigues me is why some canals plumped for ground paddles at the bottom of the lock. The L&L was a major player in this

 

Is this correct?  The only tail ground paddles on L&L locks I can think of offhand are on the staircase locks, and are technically head ground paddles (cloughs!) for the lower chamber.

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To increase the speed of passage through locks, the L&LC enlarged the paddle opening on bottom gates, fitting a counter-balance to make the additional weight easier to raise. I don't think any survive.

Barrowford 1.jpg

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24 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Is this correct?  The only tail ground paddles on L&L locks I can think of offhand are on the staircase locks, and are technically head ground paddles (cloughs!) for the lower chamber.


Pluto can give you chapter and verse but my recollection is that most of the locks had bottom ground paddles originally and in many cases the channels for the paddle rods survive

As a child I recall pondering why the staircases had bottom ground paddles when other locks didn't - the answer was, I think, that they had survived on the staircases

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I will still never understand why, when hydraulic paddle gear was being installed because it was supposedly safer (trapped fingers, flying windlasses etc.), that nobody pointed out that the possible negative consequences of a boat sinking in a lock -- because there was no way of dropping the paddles quickly if it got hung up -- were far worse than the small supposed safety improvements...

 

A boat I was on (Kate Snow's "Baron", if anyone remembers them) came perilously close to this going down Marsworth locks early one morning just before Xmas 1985, and I've never forgotten ?

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8 minutes ago, IanD said:

I will still never understand why, when hydraulic paddle gear was being installed because it was supposedly safer (trapped fingers, flying windlasses etc.), that nobody pointed out that the possible negative consequences of a boat sinking in a lock -- because there was no way of dropping the paddles quickly if it got hung up -- were far worse than the small supposed safety improvements...

 

A boat I was on (Kate Snow's "Baron", if anyone remembers them) came perilously close to this going down Marsworth locks early one morning just before Xmas 1985, and I've never forgotten ?

IIRC correctly the HSE (or whatever it was called then) highlighted the problem of trapped fingers - hyrdaulics were proposed as the answer. Risk Assessment wasn't as well developed as a concept then so the risks posed by hydraulics were not considered.

 

Some way into implementation BW noticed that injuries from slipping windlasses far outweighed injuries from trapped fingers - and that hydraulics fared no better than conventional gear in that regard. As a result BW went on a spindle standardisation campaign and HSE agreed hydraulics aere not needed. 

We ended up with two spindles sizes because large parts of the NW had the small tapered size and large parts of the GU had the big square size - it was also found that hydraulics were safer with the big square spindle

 

IASTR that, sometime around then, H&S shifted such that the operative had to take some responsibility, so exposed gearing was okay so long as there was no need to put your fingers anywhere near it. 

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3 minutes ago, David Mack said:

That is a much neater reduction box than the Fenner gear which BW usually fitted to stiff paddles. Is it something that was added as part of the reopening or is it older?

Post re-opening and not only unique to the K&A but, erm, unique,,, 

It's a good idea as it can be retrofitted to existing paddles, as here, but somewhat overdone, it seems to be about a 20 to 1 reduction!

Edited by magpie patrick
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On 20/03/2021 at 08:12, Philip said:

 

I have seen other old photos of narrow locks on the section from Napton to Knowle and in these none of the locks had top gate paddles, just ground ones.

I suspect the lock in the picture above was an exception and that the Warwick and Birmingham/Napton standard was top ground paddles but no gate paddles. There appears to be only one top ground paddle at the lock above, so maybe that's why there are gate paddles fitted too.

 

Not sure it was all about how successful the canal was as to whether gate paddles were fitted. The Trent and Mersey narrow locks north of Harecastle Tunnel didn't have gate paddles, and currently to the south only the locks with one ground paddle have a gate paddle. The Worcester and Birmingham I don't think has ever had them fitted and there is the question about the northern Staffs and Worcs locks which currently don't have any.

Interesting - and I'd certainly not seen a picture of top gate paddles on the W&N/B before.

In the pciture were talking about the lock is out of use and the ground paddles on the side where the new lock is are missing. It is just possible they were removed whilst the lock was still in use and gate paddles put in to compensate, but retrofitting gate paddles isn't easy unless you replace the gate. 

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2 hours ago, magpie patrick said:

Interesting - and I'd certainly not seen a picture of top gate paddles on the W&N/B before.

In the pciture were talking about the lock is out of use and the ground paddles on the side where the new lock is are missing. It is just possible they were removed whilst the lock was still in use and gate paddles put in to compensate, but retrofitting gate paddles isn't easy unless you replace the gate. 

 

On the latter point about gates having a gate paddle fitted later, this happened at Beeston Iron Lock. The steel top gates (now replaced) were fitted in 1963 and I have seen a photo from about that time showing the gates with no gate paddle on either. Another picture from the late 1970s showed the towpath-side gate with a paddle added, and raised. By the early 2000s the rack had been disconnected but the paddle structure kept in place until the gates were replaced.

 

Have a recollection from years ago of seeing a picture of Park Gate Lock with a paddle fitted to the steel top gate, although I might have mixed this up with a different lock as I haven't seen any other pictures showing this, and it doesn't have one fitted now.

 

Beeston Iron lock: Photo courtesy of James Wood and www.canalscape.net website.

image.png.79120252d17ef00e2739cf378e2d2a6d.png

 

And a more modern photo, courtesy of Alan Murray-Rust and Geograph website:

 

image.png.99af9f923c2daa3a389345e07aa116f3.png

Edited by Philip
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5 hours ago, IanD said:

I will still never understand why, when hydraulic paddle gear was being installed because it was supposedly safer (trapped fingers, flying windlasses etc.), that nobody pointed out that the possible negative consequences of a boat sinking in a lock -- because there was no way of dropping the paddles quickly if it got hung up -- were far worse than the small supposed safety improvements...

 

A boat I was on (Kate Snow's "Baron", if anyone remembers them) came perilously close to this going down Marsworth locks early one morning just before Xmas 1985, and I've never forgotten ?

I've a similar recollection when as a child my parents boat got caught on a protruding brick and as my dad tried to rapidly drop the hydraulic paddle the windlass slipped off and smashed through his face. Fortunately a BW worker was at the next lock and whisked him off to the nearest hospital to have it stitched up.

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2 hours ago, Rob-M said:

I've a similar recollection when as a child my parents boat got caught on a protruding brick and as my dad tried to rapidly drop the hydraulic paddle the windlass slipped off and smashed through his face. Fortunately a BW worker was at the next lock and whisked him off to the nearest hospital to have it stitched up.

Phew, that was lucky. Wouldn't have helped us though, since it was about 1am in the morning on a lovely moonlit December night with snow everywhere...

 

Yes I know, but when you've only got three and a bit days to get from Broxbourne to Cosgrove in time for Xmas normal travelling hours aren't really an option ?

Edited by IanD
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11 hours ago, Rob-M said:

I've a similar recollection when as a child my parents boat got caught on a protruding brick and as my dad tried to rapidly drop the hydraulic paddle the windlass slipped off and smashed through his face. Fortunately a BW worker was at the next lock and whisked him off to the nearest hospital to have it stitched up.

 

Was the boat OK?

 

 

Edited by Tim Lewis
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We had an incident at Beeston Iron Lock in the late eighties. I can't remember if it was Fenner gear or not, but we were going down and a tiny nib of weld at the base of the counter on the left, hooked onto the longitudinal strip of plate (seen in Philip's lower image). The gear on the bottom gates was so slow in being wound down as they wouldn't drop of their own accord, the boat tipped quite alarmingly before it 'unhooked' under gravity. Did bounce around a lot.

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17 hours ago, magpie patrick said:

Pluto can give you chapter and verse but my recollection is that most of the locks had bottom ground paddles originally and in many cases the channels for the paddle rods survive
As a child I recall pondering why the staircases had bottom ground paddles when other locks didn't - the answer was, I think, that they had survived on the staircases

Sorry not to be able to give full details, but a full survey of L&LC locks is on my to-do list. It may be that the early locks, those built 1770-1790, had bottom ground paddles, whilst those built later did not. However, there were numerous rebuildings of individual locks, as can be seen from those in Yorkshire where the bottom ground paddle tunnel has been infilled. I suspect that to overcome the lack of water from ground paddles, the gate paddle openings were increased in size, as seen in the counter-balance photo. This also happened on the Rochdale Canal, where what most people take for their traditional paddle gear was actually installed to make opening the heavier larger sectioned paddles easier to open. This gear should also have an automatic brake, so that the paddle has to be wound down. They were concerned that dropping the larger paddles would damage the gear.

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14 minutes ago, Tim Lewis said:

For no other reason than because I can I like to take pictures of different sorts of lock gear when out boating, the following link is an assortment in no order

 

Lock Gear - Timlewis (smugmug.com)

 

 

All that tells me is that I need to do more boating... :lol:

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