Composting toilet waste disposal in CaRT bins

[doratheexplorer]

10 hours ago, droshky said:

Instead of repeating myself I’ll just ask: have you (or let’s not be shy, anyone) personal knowledge of a single blockage definitively caused by (what I’d call) misuse of a composting toilet? As opposed to a pile of nastiness which might include substances from various sources

I've known elsans to be blocked by self-pumpouts.  Should we ban pump-out toilets?  Why should I (a Thetford user) have to pay for the unblocking of elsans due to inconsiderate pump-outers?

[Jerra]

3 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

I've known elsans to be blocked by self-pumpouts.  

If a pumpout blocks and elsan I would suspect that a dry toilet would be even more likely to block one.    After all a pumpout contains a lot of liquid and nothing which won't pass through a fairly small diameter pipe.

 

I have no idea how to solve either problem however I find it interesting that when I asked dry toilet users about what they would be prepared to pay and what quantity they would expect to get rid of at a time only 2 replied.   Both of those don't seem to need (or possibly that should be think they don't need) any facilities.   No other users seem prepared to to give any suggestions which might make it possible to think a way round the problem.

 

Composting bins have suggested but without basic facts such as how much would they have to deal with and how much folk would be prepared to pay it is a non starter.

[doratheexplorer]

9 minutes ago, Jerra said:

If a pumpout blocks and elsan I would suspect that a dry toilet would be even more likely to block one.    After all a pumpout contains a lot of liquid and nothing which won't pass through a fairly small diameter pipe.

 

I have no idea how to solve either problem however I find it interesting that when I asked dry toilet users about what they would be prepared to pay and what quantity they would expect to get rid of at a time only 2 replied.   Both of those don't seem to need (or possibly that should be think they don't need) any facilities.   No other users seem prepared to to give any suggestions which might make it possible to think a way round the problem.

 

Composting bins have suggested but without basic facts such as how much would they have to deal with and how much folk would be prepared to pay it is a non starter.

Given the current climate on these threads, I'm not surprised the bag'n'binners are keeping their heads down.  I'd do the same in their shoes.

[tree monkey]

2 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Given the current climate on these threads, I'm not surprised the bag'n'binners are keeping their heads down.  I'd do the same in their shoes.

What, you would bag and bin in their shoes?

Bit harsh Dora

[Athy]

4 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

 I'm not surprised the bag'n'binners are keeping their heads down.  I'd do the same in their shoes.

Why, have you run out of bags?

 

EDIT: great minds, T.M.

Edited March 4, 2021 by Athy

[Jerra]

1 minute ago, doratheexplorer said:

Given the current climate on these threads, I'm not surprised the bag'n'binners are keeping their heads down.  I'd do the same in their shoes.

In which case they can look forward to CRT making their lives more difficult as there will be no solution (which I think all would agree is needed) unless the numbers are known and basic facts are know.

 

It has been said CRT monitor forums.   If this is the case all they will see is the majority want bagging-n-binning stopped and the numbers who use dry toilets are incredibly low and they have alternatives.

[doratheexplorer]

4 minutes ago, Jerra said:

In which case they can look forward to CRT making their lives more difficult as there will be no solution (which I think all would agree is needed) unless the numbers are known and basic facts are know.

 

It has been said CRT monitor forums.   If this is the case all they will see is the majority want bagging-n-binning stopped and the numbers who use dry toilets are incredibly low and they have alternatives.

The facebook groups and twitter tell a different story. CRT monitor those too. 

 

I can't see how the bag'n'binners lives will be any more difficult.  They'll just carry on as usual.  What's to stop them?  This is the problem with the discussion so far, all the antis have failed to come up with any practical solution to the 'problem'.  The best so far is to ban composting toilets from boats and enforce that through the BSS, except that would be beyond the remit of the BSS, so is a non-starter.

 

The actual solution involves CRT finding a way to allow it to continue, much like with nappies and dog poo.

 

I predict that CRT will tell Biffa that they've changed their rules, Biffa will say "oh, ok then".  Everyone will put their heads in the sands and the current bag'n'binning will continue, under the radar.

 

The main change is that there will be fewer youtube videos about it.

[Jerra]

1 minute ago, doratheexplorer said:

I can't see how the bag'n'binners lives will be any more difficult.  They'll just carry on as usual.  What's to stop them? 

Currently nothing is to stop them but I am fairly certain that if CRT put their minds to it they will find a way.  The way may or may not be strictly legal but is unlikely like a lot of other things to be challenged in court.

[peterboat]

45 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

I've known elsans to be blocked by self-pumpouts.  Should we ban pump-out toilets?  Why should I (a Thetford user) have to pay for the unblocking of elsans due to inconsiderate pump-outers?

I have seen the results of a self pumpout at an elsen point when it overflowed horrendous is my only comment

[Alan de Enfield]

9 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

The best so far is to ban composting toilets from boats and enforce that through the BSS, except that would be beyond the remit of the BSS, so is a non-starter.

 

 

You seem to have ignored the only possible suggestion that can be physically achieved. "The provision of tiger-striped offensive waste bins".

 

The only questions are :

 

Who pays the implementation costs ?

How is the cost apportioned and how is it actually paid ?

How is the usage monitored to ensure the correct stuff goes in the correct bin ?

How is it enforced ?

What are the penalities for incorrect usage ?

Who pays the ongoing costs of monitoring, enforcement, & bin emptying ?

 

If you (or C&RT) can answer those questions, and then those with composting toilets accept the 'rules', then the whole 'problem' goes away.

[doratheexplorer]

11 minutes ago, Jerra said:

Currently nothing is to stop them but I am fairly certain that if CRT put their minds to it they will find a way.  The way may or may not be strictly legal but is unlikely like a lot of other things to be challenged in court.

And what are the chances that the most cost effective way, is to allow for putting poo in bins?  Enforcement is a costly business at the best of times.  Trying to enforce against people putting black bin bags in bins, on the off-chance that there may be some contraband in there would be ridiculously difficult and therefore very expensive.

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

You seem to have ignored the only possible suggestion that can be physically achieved. "The provision of tiger-striped offensive waste bins".

 

The only questions are :

 

Who pays the implementation costs ?

How is the cost apportioned and how is it actually paid ?

How is the usage monitored to ensure the correct stuff goes in the correct bin ?

How is it enforced ?

What are the penalities for incorrect usage ?

Who pays the ongoing costs of monitoring, enforcement, & bin emptying ?

 

If you (or C&RT) can answer those questions, and then those with composting toilets accept the 'rules', then the whole 'problem' goes away.

Well that's much the same as my earlier suggestions so....

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Well that's much the same as my earlier suggestions so....

 

Thats great, can you link me to where your suggestions are as to how it can be achieved.

 

(Sorry there are no post numbers to refer to but maybe you could cut and re-post the relevant parts)

[doratheexplorer]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Thats great, can you link me to where your suggestions are as to how it can be achieved.

 

(Sorry there are no post numbers to refer to but maybe you could cut and re-post the relevant parts)

That's a question for Biffa / CRT.  Unlike you, I don't claim to be an expert on everything.  My suggestions, from the start, have been about finding a solution that allows binning to continue.  Any other option won't work IMO. 

 

Finding those solutions won't be found in a soundbite from anyone here on the forum, and to suggest otherwise is just naive.

 

The closest anyone's come so far is Captain Bob who actually seems to know something about how this all works.  All those who have a stake in this, need to get their heads together and figure it out.  But I predict they won't, hence my 'heads in the sand' comment earlier.

[frahkn]

27 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

The facebook groups and twitter tell a different story. CRT monitor those too. 

 

I can't see how the bag'n'binners lives will be any more difficult.  They'll just carry on as usual.  What's to stop them?  This is the problem with the discussion so far, all the antis have failed to come up with any practical solution to the 'problem'.  The best so far is to ban composting toilets from boats and enforce that through the BSS, except that would be beyond the remit of the BSS, so is a non-starter.

 

The actual solution involves CRT finding a way to allow it to continue, much like with nappies and dog poo.

 

I predict that CRT will tell Biffa that they've changed their rules, Biffa will say "oh, ok then".  Everyone will put their heads in the sands and the current bag'n'binning will continue, under the radar.

 

The main change is that there will be fewer youtube videos about it.

Leaving aside the impracticality, which to be fair you do mention, a ban would be unfair to me (and others like me) as I take my 'product' home. 

[doratheexplorer]

1 minute ago, frahkn said:

Leaving aside the impracticality, which to be fair you do mention, a ban would be unfair to me (and others like me) as I take my 'product' home. 

Well yes, it's a fairly stupid idea and would never work.  Still the best we've had so far from the antis.

[IanD]

3 hours ago, doratheexplorer said:

In other words, out of the thousands of boaters, there are a couple of hundred who like to argue about this stuff.  The rest genuinely don't care.  This is why the views of a forum like this should be taken with extreme skepticism.  CWDF views are not remotely representative of the wider views of the boating community.

 

It doesn't matter, going back to the original question -- if they don't care, they don't care what happens either way, along with ones who voted "I don't care" in the poll.

 

What matters is the people who do care.

 

And for those on CWDF who voted, 4x as many (up to now) say -- like CaRT -- that the poo-dumping should stop as think it should continue. Most people would say an 80:20 majority in any poll/election is overwhelming.

 

If you claim that this doesn't represent the views of the wider boating community, then prove it.

 

You could just as well claim that the moon was made of cheese, anyone can make any claim with no evidence to support it, but few people will believe them. Unless they're Donald Trump...

Edited March 4, 2021 by IanD

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

It doesn't matter, going back to the original question -- if they don't care, they don't care what happens either way, along with ones who voted "I don't care" in the poll.

 

What matters is the people who do care.

 

And for those on CWDF who voted, 4x as many (up to now) say -- like CaRT -- that the poo-dumping should stop as think it should continue. Most people would say an 80:20 majority in any poll/election is overwhelming.

 

If you claim that this doesn't represent the views of the wider boating community, then prove it.

 

You could just as well claim that the moon was made of cheese, anyone can make any claim with no evidence to support it, but few people will believe them. Unless they're Donald trump...

 

Only if the poll was representative of the wider community/population. I would suggest this forum is far from representative of the boating community especially those that live on board. You and I for example and a good few others don't even own a bloody boat.

 

I would also suggest the demographic make up does not reflect the wider boating community. Given the number on her who have already been covid vaccinated and or appear to be retired I would venture to suggest the age demographic is not at the lower end of the scale. So again not representative.

 

So no proof yes, but no more than you can prove that your 'noddy' poll is reflective of what the wider community would say.

 

It is not 'overwhelming' it is a best an indication that the wider community might just possibly agree.

 

Don't over egg the result. You are starting to look a bit silly TBH, and definitely obsessed.

[IanD]

1 hour ago, frahkn said:

Leaving aside the impracticality, which to be fair you do mention, a ban would be unfair to me (and others like me) as I take my 'product' home. 

A ban on composting toilets would be unfair to you, and also to all the others like Peter who use their composting toilets as intended. Just like I've been saying again and again...

 

Right now CaRT are not proposing to ban the toilets, they're saying that the waste shouldn't be put into their bins, it's now the boater's problem to dispose of it legally -- preferably, by composting it. If you do this, they're a great and very green idea.

 

If composting toilet owners heed this advice and either compost the waste properly, or find some other legal way of getting rid of it, or remove the toilet, then there's no need to ban them -- the people who are using them properly can continue to do so.

 

If too many owners refuse to do this and carry on dumping it in the CaRT bins then it seems unlikely that CaRT will be able to allow this to continue -- asking nicely didn't work so they'll have to find a way of enforcing the rule.

 

Given that detecting/enforcing/policing bin abuse is pretty much impossible (bags in the dead of night!), the most likely outcome is to ban the toilets to prevent the problem at source. Yes CaRT have to fond a way of doing this legally, but there's bound to be one -- if not licensing then BSS, if not BSS then insurance.

 

It would be nice to think that an exception could be made for "proper" users who can show that they compost the waste properly. The trouble is that this is an invitation for evasion by those who can't (or won't) do this, even if they show a compost heap somewhere to get the exemption there's no way to make them use it, they can just carry on bag'n'binning. Maybe CaRT would try the exception method, and then have to revoke this if it turns out that too many people are fiddling it.

 

So if composting toilets get banned completely to the detriment of proper composters, they should blame the bag'n'binners who ignored the rules.

 

If an exception is made for proper composters and this then gets revoked, they should blame the bag'n'binners who fiddled the system.

 

Yes a ban on composting toilets would be unfair. The way to stop this happening is for bag'n'binners to obey the rules.

[Guest]

Just now, IanD said:

 Just like I've been saying again and again...

 

Have you? Really - I think some of us have missed it, care to say it again and again and even again?

 

Just in case somebody is unaware of your opinion on the matter.....?

[IanD]

43 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

Only if the poll was representative of the wider community/population. I would suggest this forum is far from representative of the boating community especially those that live on board. You and I for example and a good few others don't even own a bloody boat.

 

I would also suggest the demographic make up does not reflect the wider boating community. Given the number on her who have already been covid vaccinated and or appear to be retired I would venture to suggest the age demographic is not at the lower end of the scale. So again not representative.

 

So no proof yes, but no more than you can prove that your 'noddy' poll is reflective of what the wider community would say.

 

It is not 'overwhelming' it is a best an indication that the wider community might just possibly agree.

 

Don't over egg the result. You are starting to look a bit silly TBH, and definitely obsessed.

The numbers in the poll are by definition "overwhelming". If like Dora you think this isn't representative of the community as a whole, why don't you go and gather some data to show this?

 

What you're doing is the same as the responses to the Facebook poll which showed that only 30% of composting boaters compost their waste properly. First response, the poll is wrong. Second response, I didn't get to vote. Third response, the poll is unrepresentative. Classic Trump election policy, if you don't like a result but don't have any facts to put up against it (because they don't exist...) then cast doubt on whether it's accurate or not.

 

I have never claimed that the poll accurately represents the views of the boating community as a whole, because it's self selecting. However there are plenty of people on CWDF who are strongly in favour of or strongly against allowing bag'n'binning to continue, just like the boating world in general, and they all had a chance to vote. If the results were anywhere close to 50:50 then the fact that the poll might not be accurate would matter -- but that's not the case here. Any poll with a reasonable sized sample (about a hundred, if you look up the statistics) of a population which shows a 4:1 majority will correctly predict which way the entire population would respond, even allowing for any CWDF-to-boating-community mismatch. If you don't believe this, you don't understand how statistics and sampling theory and polls work.

 

I'm not obsessed, just intensely irritated by people who will clutch at any straw to hide the fact that they've lost an argument, including "we should all be united" (meaning: you should agree with me, not the other way round) or "we should stop talking about this" (meaning: I don't want to keep being reminded that I'm wrong) or "the right solution is to continue to allow it" (meaning: even if CaRT and most boaters want it to stop, I don't care, the tiny minority should get to decide). And every time you come back and make claims with no supporting evidence -- or which fly in the face of evidence -- I'll come back and rebut them.

 

In other words, if you put out "alternative facts", you don't get to tell other people that they should agree with them, stop making a fuss, or stop arguing with you. That's not how a discussion forum works. Or a democracy...

 

32 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

Have you? Really - I think some of us have missed it, care to say it again and again and even again?

 

Just in case somebody is unaware of your opinion on the matter.....?

Are they really? Oh good then, it's worked ?

 

Going to do some real work now I've had my morning argument...

Edited March 4, 2021 by IanD

[doratheexplorer]

38 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

Have you? Really - I think some of us have missed it, care to say it again and again and even again?

 

Just in case somebody is unaware of your opinion on the matter.....?

It has become ridiculous.  This thread actually makes better sense once the ignore trigger has been pulled.  Just wish I'd done it earlier! ?

[Guest]

57 minutes ago, IanD said:

The numbers in the poll are by definition "overwhelming". If like Dora you think this isn't representative of the community as a whole, why don't you go and gather some data to show this?

 

What you're doing is the same as the responses to the Facebook poll which showed that only 30% of composting boaters compost their waste properly. First response, the poll is wrong. Second response, I didn't get to vote. Third response, the poll is unrepresentative. Classic Trump election policy, if you don't like a result but don't have any facts to put up against it (because they don't exist...) then cast doubt on whether it's accurate or not.

 

I have never claimed that the poll accurately represents the views of the boating community as a whole, because it's self selecting. However there are plenty of people on CWDF who are strongly in favour of or strongly against allowing bag'n'binning to continue, just like the boating world in general, and they all had a chance to vote. If the results were anywhere close to 50:50 then the fact that the poll might not be accurate would matter -- but that's not the case here. Any poll ever taken with a reasonable sized sample (about a hundred, if you look up the statistics) of a population which shows a 4:1 majority is guaranteed to correctly show which way the entire population would respond. If you don't believe this, you don't understand how statistics and sampling theory and polls work.

 

I'm not obsessed, just intensely irritated by people who will clutch at any straw to hide the fact that they've lost an argument, including "we should all be united" (meaning: you should agree with me, not the other way round) or "we should stop talking about this" (meaning: I don't want to keep being reminded that I'm wrong). And every time you come back and make claims with no supporting evidence -- or which fly in the face of evidence -- I'll come back and rebut them.

 

In other words, if you put out "alternative facts", you don't get to tell other people that they should agree with them, stop making a fuss, or stop arguing with you. That's not how a discussion forum works. Or a democracy...

Are they really? Oh good then, it's worked ?

 

More tosh.

 

Opinion polls don't accurately forecast results when they only focus on a specific sample of people. They have to focus on a broader and more representative sample. So if we asked the forum 'should the state pension be increased?' what do we think the answer would be? given the obvious age demographic. I bet you it wouldn't be no.

 

As has been pointed out to you now at least twice your sample is not representative. As in not, did you grasp that? We don't even know what proportion of the forum have composting loos, or if it mirrors the proportion of the boating community that do.  Those that have them may have a very different opinion on the subject.

 

It's also loaded. That is why professional pollsters often spend proper time carefully crafting the questions in a poll . So as not to sway the result by inadvertently leading the participants.

 

That penultimate paragraph by the way is utterly priceless, you don't get to say who has 'lost or won an argument' - that comment alone displays your utter arrogance. You don't get to win an argument by repeating the same old stuff ad nauseum. 

 

Other people get to make that call, those observing the discussion (If they havent fallen asleep that is)

 

 

 

 

57 minutes ago, IanD said:

Going to do some real work now I've had my morning argument...

 

And there we have it.

 

 

Edited March 4, 2021 by The Happy Nomad

[Jerra]

2 hours ago, doratheexplorer said:

And what are the chances that the most cost effective way, is to allow for putting poo in bins?

I must have missed something!   I thought this discussion started because the waste carrier was refusing to allow the stuff in the bins.

 

If that is the case how can continuing to put it in bins go on?

[doratheexplorer]

17 minutes ago, Jerra said:

I must have missed something!   I thought this discussion started because the waste carrier was refusing to allow the stuff in the bins.

 

If that is the case how can continuing to put it in bins go on?

It certainly seems so.

 

More concerningly, it now seems that those raising their disgust at this have brought the issue of dog poo to Biffa's door, who are now looking at their obligations with regard to that. 

 

Be careful what you wish for, you may get more than you bargained.

 

I don't have a dog or any children (or a compost loo) so it makes no odds to me.

 

On a purely personal level, I'd prefer no dog poo in bins (or hanging from trees), but I realise that trying to find workable solutions is preferable to just banning things.

[Alan de Enfield]

9 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

More concerningly, it now seems that those raising their disgust at this have brought the issue of dog poo to Biffa's door,

 

If you check back you will find that it was actually a 'pro bag & bin' poster who highlighted the problem of doggy-bags, and was even kind enough to extrapolate the daily tonnage produced by multiplying 7,000,000 dogs by an average of 350g per dog.

 

If anyone is to 'own' the responsibility for highlighting it, it is obvious to all, at whose door it should be laid.