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Anyone have experience of living with a single cylinder air cooled engine?


MegoBoat

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Hello all, 

 

I'm looking at buying a 40ft Dutch cruiser which is in absolutely gorgeous condition structurally. I do however, have some concerns over the engine and it's long term usability. It is a single cylinder air cooled Samofa which I have seen a video of running like a dream but unfortunately haven't heard in person yet. The boat is on hardstanding so a water trial is not possible. My concerns are;

 

- living with the noise and are they really that noisy when cruising?

 

- the power output; I am currently on the K&A and want to be sure it could handle the faster Kennet sections, the Thames, the Avon and in a couple of years the Severn and on to Gloucester. There are some strong water flows on these rivers that the next home needs to be able to handle.

- the usability for long cruises in the summer; having never met an air cooled engine it seems to my logic (which is basic and quite possibly be entirely flawed) that I may be restricted in the hours I can cruise in the summer. I love exploring our waterways and the engine needs to be able to run all day sometimes. As mentioned before, there is a plan to head up the Severn one day  and the last thing I would want on the appropriate flat calm and probably very warm day would be to overheat!

 

So if anyone has experience of the Samofa, or a similar Lister / Perkins etc. Then I would love to hear your thoughts.

It's a beautiful vessel but if the engine is going to cause logistical headaches in the long run it might not be the one.

 

Many thanks.

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Just remember that an air cooled engine will not produce any hot water, so no hot showers, etc unless there is an alternative heat source.

One of the big benefits of a water cooled engine is that you get 'lashings' of hot water 'free' as the engine produces it whilst you are cruising, the other is that water cooled engines are 'a million' times quieter than an air cooled engine.

 

Good luck whatever you choose.

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2 minutes ago, MegoBoat said:

 

- the usability for long cruises in the summer; having never met an air cooled engine it seems to my logic (which is basic and quite possibly be entirely flawed) that I may be restricted in the hours I can cruise in the summer. I love exploring our waterways and the engine needs to be able to run all day sometimes.

 

A whole generation of narrowboats ran on air cooled Listers without overheating being problem. Just needs the cooling air to be properly ducted so warm air doesn't just get recirculated.

Indeed I reckon overheating of water cooled engines due to inadequate skin tanks has probably been more of a problem.

  • Greenie 1
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I believe the Samofa shares some heritage, and possibly components, with the Gardner LW.  Marine Power Services know about them, so might be worth a call to establish what support is like.

 

N

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This link http://www.samofa.nl/Samofa/Products/Paginas/Samofa_85_serie_files/brochure1_80_serie_Samofa_algemeen_diverse_talen.pdf

suggests it will have a maximum output of 8 HP so on a 40ft wide beam I would not want to try any river with a bit of flow on. Trying to punch up through the Gut in Reading could be time-consuming and I hear the Avon can get interesting.

 

Personally I would not want such a noisy, low power engine with no way of using the waste heat.

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On the thread about propulsion,Peterboat reckons 3.3 Kw (4HP) =3MPH on his widebeam.

Doing a bit of extrapolation 8HP should give 51/2 MPH.

As for hot water,a gas instant water heater is simpler than a calorifier.Seems wasteful to me to run an engine just for hot water unless you are cruising.

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1 hour ago, Mad Harold said:

On the thread about propulsion,Peterboat reckons 3.3 Kw (4HP) =3MPH on his widebeam.

Doing a bit of extrapolation 8HP should give 51/2 MPH.

As for hot water,a gas instant water heater is simpler than a calorifier.Seems wasteful to me to run an engine just for hot water unless you are cruising.

 

Simpler!!!!!!! Diaphragm, gas valve, overheat, various adjustments. I don't think so. Claorifiers are fit and all but fit and forget, gas water heaters      certainly are not.

 

If fear that if you think a 40ft fat boat will do 5mph on 8hp you will be disappointed and that 8hp maximum was for one of the engines, the other only developed 5 hp.

 

Edited to add that the 8hp will be well into the speed where the torque starts dropping off so almost certainly the engine will never reach maximum speed because of the way props work. The useful power will be less than that.

Edited by Tony Brooks
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Thank you all very much for your replies! A diversity of opinion showing through and some very useful suggestions. 

 

The yard has very confidently confirmed that the engine is more than enough to handle the Thames, with the owner having driven the vessel himself (admittedly on a calm lake... yep, not a river). I suppose it's always a case of getting to know any vessel and going at the right time and river conditions, but I certainly wouldn't be winning any races from the sound of it! A boat with significant power AND a comfortable home space though seems a little out of my budget at the moment.

 

The calorifier for me isn't much of an issue as I will be going from my only hot water option being from boiling the kettle to having space for an instant hot water boiler. I suppose you can't miss what you've never had!

 

The engine information links and link to Marine Power Services are very useful. I will call the company tomorrow to see whether there would be issues with parts in the long run.

 

Still more thinking to do and maths to work out. I would miss the bird song I usually hear whilst cruising but gain a lot of additional space.

 

Thanks for the responses so far and more opinions most welcome!

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52 minutes ago, roland elsdon said:

Never have understood water-cooled engines in boats. So much to go wrong, impellers to wear out hoses to perish, anti freeze to maintain, pumps, skin tanks , heat exchangers to block up, and the cheapest link in the system the thermostat, its failure will kill it all.

 

bit like cars, my old Fiat 500 managed without fluid, no antifreeze, pumps, hoses

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Thanks for the opinions.  As true devotees of the air cooled engine, (as some of you very much seem to be), how do you find the noise and vibration if directly compared to a water cooled? Is it actually that much louder or is it more a case of an unusual beat pattern being jarring to many listeners?

 

Also, this boat has a very large stern for aie movement but only one vent. It was used almost every weekend for summer cruising in the Netherlands so obviously hasn't struggled there, but would it be likely that my aspiration of longer distances may push it to new limits? I suppose a slave fan system would be possible but there is already quite a list of jobs to do!

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The power output sounds very modest for the size of boat.

Not only do you need to consider motoring against the water current but depending on your windage, hull, topside and appendages, motoring upwind could even turn out to be a struggle especially if the fetch was long enough to create windbourne waves smacking against a bluff bow.

This could make handling a challenge if it could reduce your speed enough to make the rudder ineffective through lack of water flow.

 

Edited by DandV
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How about giving us the engine model, capacity and BHP as well as the maker's name? At present we can only guess what it is. It is a well known fact that air cooled engines are noisier than water cooled ones because the water jacket and two layers of cast metal help considerably to attenuate the noise. With air cooling its vital to ensure there is adequate cool air available to be drawn through the engine and that makes further sound proofing more difficult. Not impossible but just more difficult.

 

There is no reason the exhaust beat of an air cooled engine should be any different to a water cooled one with the same number of cylinders of a similar capacity, the general engine noise will just be louder.

 

I have had an air cooled hire boat engine with no cooling air ducting start to overheat while seeing how it went down the Birmingham main line. For engines in an enclosed engine bay Lister recommend cooling air exhaust ducting to a vent plus an adequate inlet vent but some don't have it and seem to get by. However on our Lister SL4s we found they had a tendency for them to shed their piston inserts unless we made absolutely sure the combustion inlet are was a cool as possible but that was a feature of the design, the SR with no piston insert seemed to be fine.

 

My feeling is that unless the exhaust cooling air is ducted overboard plus a decent sized inlet vent you risk running the engine with cooling air hotter than its deign allowed for and also hotter combustion air.  What effect that has is anybodies guess, but the risk of piston damage/partial seizure needs recognising. Over hot combustion air may also lead to excess carbon build up because of the lower oxygen content.

 

I know a wide beam barge on the Irish waterways had/has a single cylinder water cooled Bolinder that seemed to operate OK but I suspect it may be more powerful than your single.

4 minutes ago, DandV said:

The power output sounds very modest for the size of boat.

Not only do you need to consider motoring against the water current but depending on your windage, hull, topside and appendages, motoring upwind could even turn out to be a struggle especially if the fetch was long enough to create windbourne waves smacking against a bluff bow.

 

 

I don't think the OP has given us the HP, that comes from a site I fund on the web so it may be for a different range of engines,

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17 hours ago, Mad Harold said:

On the thread about propulsion,Peterboat reckons 3.3 Kw (4HP) =3MPH on his widebeam.

Doing a bit of extrapolation 8HP should give 51/2 MPH.

 

 

please provide your extrapolation calculation.   generally the power required to reach speeds (within the modest range we are familiar with) is exponential with regard to speed.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

 

please provide your extrapolation calculation.   generally the power required to reach speeds (within the modest range we are familiar with) is exponential with regard to speed.

 

 

when I posted a reply my brain was in neutral.

Was watching tv and that silly advert for Sun life over fiftys insurance,for the umpteenth time the one where the woman next door brings the ever so nice gent's mail in.

Was idly thinking if he threw her over the worktop and gave her one,it would spice up the boring ad a bit.

To double the speed on a boat (or anything else) requires four times the power,so if 4HP gives 3MPH 8HP should theoretically give 4 1/2 MPH.

However Tony Brooks is right pointing out that a boat engine at max revs will have less torque,so extrapolation is really only a guess.

 

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On the plus side I suppose being of Dutch origin its may well have a round bilge that makes it far more suitable for the K&A profile than a slab sided narrowboat but its probably comparatively thin metal. If it is round bilge it will probably swim better than a wide beam "narrowboat" so require less power but I come back to the Oracle gut in Reading going upstream with a bit of flow.

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Without knowing the capacity of the engine in question here we're all peeing in the wind really aren't we?

A 9hp single cylinder is quite capable of moving a loaded narrowboat down a muddy canal if it's capacity is 4 litres,  not 400cc's.

As we all know,  it's about torque not outright Bhp, and torque comes with large swept volume. 60' Sheffield keels would tow a dumb boat, both fully loaded with a modest 18hp JP2, but I'd doubt they'd be going anywhere fast with a Beta 43 under the deck.

If the engine in the boat in question is similar to a 9hp Sabb single I'd be concerned,  if it looks like a 4' high oil drum I'd guess you'll be fine.

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A further consideration is that its probably solid mounted. That in itself is not a bad thing and as long as it's been done properly. It removes the shaft alignment problems that regularly affect many boats with engines on rubber mounts. But it will transmit all the out of balance forces to the engine beds and hull. These will be more on a single cylinder so you need to consider how much vibration the installation produces and how tolerant you and any guests will be of it.

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1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

On the plus side I suppose being of Dutch origin its may well have a round bilge that makes it far more suitable for the K&A profile than a slab sided narrowboat but its probably comparatively thin metal. If it is round bilge it will probably swim better than a wide beam "narrowboat" so require less power but I come back to the Oracle gut in Reading going upstream with a bit of flow.

 

And I reckon Newbury is maybe even more demanding than the Oracle, not as bendy but the last bit going under the bridge is quite restricted.

 

...............Dave

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Just noticed the OP is concerned with "logistical issues" with the engine. I think that is the key with a relatively unknown engine. Where in the UK do you get spares and how readily available are they. I suspect very few places and not readily available.

 

After engine/gearbox parts is sorted I think the OP needs to have a run on the boat to see if he can live with the engine.

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Well I've just had a call from the broker and they've sold the boat. 

 

Thank you so much to everyone who answered. Even if this wasn't to be, there is some really useful information on this thread now and I genuinely feel I've learnt new info. Having only really been acquainted with outboards and GRP hulls before the whole world of steel and inboards is a bit of a minefield so I really appreciate your resoonses. 

 

At the end of the day even after assurances from the yard that the boat wouldn't struggle, I never quite felt at ease with the idea of that engine doing all the travelling I would want it to do. Probably all for the best and lots of learning had along the way thanks to your replies.

 

Cheers everyone, all the best! 

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21 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

bit like cars, my old Fiat 500 managed without fluid, no antifreeze, pumps, hoses

My sister used have a Vignale Gamine. Basically a Fiat 500 with a specialist soft top body that looked like Noddy's. I took the complete engine out and walked around with it in my arms.

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