Beta Marine JD3 manual

[Tony Brooks]

21 minutes ago, Richard Eley said:

Still to install temp gauge as need a VDO unit to match the installed sender it seems. (Beta now only supply Murphy gauges and senders). 
 

 

I don't think that is totally correct.

 

Measure the resistance of your sender, preferably cold and hot, and then compare it with the US and European specs. Then just buy a gauge that matches the sender spec. you find.

 

ASAP used to give them, but I think these are correct

 

Temperature US Standard 450 Ohms @ 100F > 30 Ohms @ 250F

Temperature European 280 Ohms @ 40C > 22 Ohms @ 120C

 

I am not sure, but it is possible that Vetus have their own resistance standard.

[dmr]

40 minutes ago, Richard Eley said:

Summary of where I am with JD3 smoke issue -  

Injectors checked and confirmed all ‘popping’ at 240 Bar so reinstalled. 
Thermostat replaced, cooling system bled and all seems okay - return hose from skin tank now getting warm after a decent running time. 
Still to install temp gauge as need a VDO unit to match the installed sender it seems. (Beta now only supply Murphy gauges and senders). 
 

Took boat out for a few days and was running reasonably clean for the first few days, now back to smoking under load despite trying to give it something to do by using TravelPower for battery charging, not letting it idle too long etc. 

 

Tried connecting the disconnected cold-start sensor which immediately popped the engine electrics fuse - seems sensor has gone short circuit so was disconnected (unless never connected originally of course by Beta). 
Will try activating the Stanadyne cold-start solenoid when back in marina (just in case it has some other dire effect after not doing anything for years) to see if this makes any difference. From what I gather the solenoid should activate and  advance timing until engine reaches around 60 degrees to reduce white smoke. 
 

 

Its more likely that the cold advance solenoid has gone short circuit as the sensor is (I think) just a switch, but as I have said, my own experiments indicated that the cold start advance does nothing at all at typical JD3 speeds.  I have never seen any white smoke so maybe this is only a thing at Really low temperatures.  The usual black/grey smoke is normally worse at light loads/low speeds and improves as the engine works harder, and like you I observe it clears for a few hours after cleaning/replacing the injectors and then returns.

I still think your engine might be running cold so get that guage fitted.

[RJE]

DMR - Both of the cold-start thermostat connections is measure short to chassis so definitely was the blown fuse culprit. I have also read that JD know these fail regularly but have never changed the design. 
The solenoid measures about 30 Ohm so I hope is okay, but as you say also unlikely to be making much difference. 
Out of interest may I ask at what temp your JD3 runs after warming up properly? My new (Beta supplied) thermostat is 83 degree unit but I’m sure engine isn’t reaching this. 

31 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I don't think that is totally correct.

 

Measure the resistance of your sender, preferably cold and hot, and then compare it with the US and European specs. Then just buy a gauge that matches the sender spec. you find.

 

ASAP used to give them, but I think these are correct

 

Temperature US Standard 450 Ohms @ 100F > 30 Ohms @ 250F

Temperature European 280 Ohms @ 40C > 22 Ohms @ 120C

 

I am not sure, but it is possible that Vetus have their own resistance standard.

Thanks Tony,  my Fozmula combined switch/sender (Beta supplied which they say matches the original gauge but that is not fitted on my basic control panel as I only have the warning lamp) measures around 240 Ohm at 40 degrees so could well be the European spec you mention. 

[Tony Brooks]

13 minutes ago, Richard Eley said:

DMR - Both of the cold-start thermostat connections is measure short to chassis so definitely was the blown fuse culprit. I have also read that JD know these fail regularly but have never changed the design. 
The solenoid measures about 30 Ohm so I hope is okay, but as you say also unlikely to be making much difference. 
Out of interest may I ask at what temp your JD3 runs after warming up properly? My new (Beta supplied) thermostat is 83 degree unit but I’m sure engine isn’t reaching this. 

Thanks Tony,  my Fozmula combined switch/sender (Beta supplied which they say matches the original gauge but that is not fitted on my basic control panel as I only have the warning lamp) measures around 240 Ohm at 40 degrees so could well be the European spec you mention. 

 

That is what I would expect from Beta.

[dmr]

2 hours ago, Richard Eley said:

DMR - Both of the cold-start thermostat connections is measure short to chassis so definitely was the blown fuse culprit. I have also read that JD know these fail regularly but have never changed the design. 
The solenoid measures about 30 Ohm so I hope is okay, but as you say also unlikely to be making much difference. 
Out of interest may I ask at what temp your JD3 runs after warming up properly? My new (Beta supplied) thermostat is 83 degree unit but I’m sure engine isn’t reaching this. 

 

That makes sense, I assume the switch is in the positive so a short to ground will give trouble.

I have an 82 degree thermostat (from ebay or a car shop, not John Deere) and I measure temperature in the cyclider head bleed position with a thermocouple, this is a bit over the top but I used to do this sort of thing as part of my job 😀. Light load is 79 to 80, working hard is 81, and I can sometimes get to 82.

There is a Beta supplied copper bypass circuit that takes the flow from the thermostat air hole back to the header tank, I assume you have the same?. This has always given me trouble, don't understand why but sometimes this water chooses to flow to the skin tank rather than the header tank and this has a surprisingly large cooling effect, though the engine should still eventually get up to temperature.

[RJE]

35 minutes ago, dmr said:

That makes sense, I assume the switch is in the positive so a short to ground will give trouble.

I have an 82 degree thermostat (from ebay or a car shop, not John Deere) and I measure temperature in the cyclider head bleed position with a thermocouple, this is a bit over the top but I used to do this sort of thing as part of my job 😀. Light load is 79 to 80, working hard is 81, and I can sometimes get to 82.

There is a Beta supplied copper bypass circuit that takes the flow from the thermostat air hole back to the header tank, I assume you have the same?. This has always given me trouble, don't understand why but sometimes this water chooses to flow to the skin tank rather than the header tank and this has a surprisingly large cooling effect, though the engine should still eventually get up to temperature.

Thanks for the info. The switch has 12V one side, other contact goes to the solenoid so if it’s shorted to chassis blows the main fuse next to the starter relay. 
Yes I have the same small bore copper pipe - could never work out what it does. 
My skin tank flow pipe from the thermostat housing gets hot fairly quickly which seems odd as expected this only to get hot once the thermostat opens…… 

[dmr]

2 hours ago, Richard Eley said:

Thanks for the info. The switch has 12V one side, other contact goes to the solenoid so if it’s shorted to chassis blows the main fuse next to the starter relay. 
Yes I have the same small bore copper pipe - could never work out what it does. 
My skin tank flow pipe from the thermostat housing gets hot fairly quickly which seems odd as expected this only to get hot once the thermostat opens…… 

 

If the skin tank pipe gets hot then its possible/likely that the water is going the wrong way, it should stay faily cool except for a bit of conduction, then get hot when the thermostat opens. If the header tank level is a little down, as it should be with a cold engine, then take the cap off when you first start the engine and look inside, you should see a flow of water out of that copper pipe.

[RJE]

Checked and no flow into header tank along the small copper pipe when engine started so guess it’s blocked, or maybe path of least resistance is to the skin tank so it goes that way? Will investigate further asap. 

 

[dmr]

7 minutes ago, Richard Eley said:

Checked and no flow into header tank along the small copper pipe when engine started so guess it’s blocked, or maybe path of least resistance is to the skin tank so it goes that way? Will investigate further asap. 

 

 

Its most likely a path of least resistance thing. I increased the bore of my copper pipe but no improvement.

If I drain the water out and put it back in then all is good for a few weeks, but the header tank water level slowly falls then the bypass flow stops. "Cylce" the water again and all is good. Assumed this was unique to my installation but maybe not, have been doing this for years and rather embarassed that I have not worked out what is going on and fixed it.

[RJE]

It’s a puzzler then - glad it’s not just my engine!

I’ll get the temp gauge sorted now I’m back at base - JD engine manual mentions 82-94 degrees  normal running temperature - from what you said earlier even getting to 82 takes some effort and maybe just confirms that the engine is a bit over spec for a narrowboat. 

[dmr]

5 minutes ago, Richard Eley said:

It’s a puzzler then - glad it’s not just my engine!

I’ll get the temp gauge sorted now I’m back at base - JD engine manual mentions 82-94 degrees  normal running temperature - from what you said earlier even getting to 82 takes some effort and maybe just confirms that the engine is a bit over spec for a narrowboat. 

 

I am quite tempted to try a higher temperature thermostat to see if that helps with the smoke, but there are safety issues and it would make the hot water very hot unless I fitted a mixer valve to the calrifier.

The engine easily gets to temperature when boating but can struggle when battery charging in a cold winter.

[RJE]

16 hours ago, dmr said:

 

I am quite tempted to try a higher temperature thermostat to see if that helps with the smoke, but there are safety issues and it would make the hot water very hot unless I fitted a mixer valve to the calrifier.

The engine easily gets to temperature when boating but can struggle when battery charging in a cold winter.

Can you remember what the thread is on the bleed screw on the rear of the head? I will use that as you have for an additional temp sender rather than having to drain system again to replace the existing switch/sender on the side of the engine as I’m not sure what the spec is on the sender part so couldn’t rely on it for measuring temp. 

[dmr]

4 minutes ago, Richard Eley said:

Can you remember what the thread is on the bleed screw on the rear of the head? I will use that as you have for an additional temp sender rather than having to drain system again to replace the existing switch/sender on the side of the engine as I’m not sure what the spec is on the sender part so couldn’t rely on it for measuring temp. 

I can't remember, it was about 15 years ago that I did this. There is a brass reducer in there to take the thermocouple fitting. I have an inkling that its a BSP thread but that would be unusual on an American designed engine, though some BSPs will go into an NPT..

[RJE]

1 hour ago, dmr said:

I can't remember, it was about 15 years ago that I did this. There is a brass reducer in there to take the thermocouple fitting. I have an inkling that its a BSP thread but that would be unusual on an American designed engine, though some BSPs will go into an NPT..

Okay thanks, will get a small selection of thread adapters 😊

[dmr]

2 minutes ago, Richard Eley said:

Okay thanks, will get a small selection of thread adapters 😊

 

Berass BSP fittings are attractive things and every boat should have a little box of them to get out and admire when you are having a miserable day. I do remember comparing my BSP collection with another forum member over a beer a few years ago 😀

I've just had a new fitting welded into the hull to fit a third bilge pump so can now buy some new BSP bits to suit it 😀

[RJE]

Well another update. Still to fit temp gauge but at least after a decent run on the GU the return from the skin tank is getting warm so assume thermostat is opening at 83 degrees.  
Smoking under load and when idling with no load, clean at higher revs with no load so not sure where to go now other than ignore an accept! Does blow some pretty smoke rings occasionally 😂

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, RJE said:

Well another update. Still to fit temp gauge but at least after a decent run on the GU the return from the skin tank is getting warm so assume thermostat is opening at 83 degrees.  
Smoking under load and when idling with no load, clean at higher revs with no load so not sure where to go now other than ignore an accept! Does blow some pretty smoke rings occasionally 😂

 

Without detailed knowledge of that engine, if it is direct injected, then I suspect you may have to live with it. It used to be well known that direct injected diesels tended to smoke at idle and under low loads at low speeds. As I understand it, it is related to a lack of swirl in the cylinders under those conditions and I am not sure what you can do about it because it is a design feature, and Beta lowering the idle speed is going to tend to make things worse.  I suspect all that you can do is to try to keep the nozzles clean and give it a thrash whenever possible. The thrash should help clean soot out of the exhaust and minimise any back pressure.

[dmr]

And on that subject, I assume you have a sensible exhaust and that its not all blocked up (unlikely). That engine should have at least 1.5" pipework (I think).

And the air cleaner element is new and clean?

Fit that temperature guage, lets have some numbers 😀

As the exhaust is clear at higher revs it sounds like nothing is badly wrong. Could you try to describe how much smoke you get? or take a photo, which is actually not as easy as it sounds.

 

Does the engine itself (not exhaust) have a nice grunty moan to it or does it sound harsh and rattly when working hard? (this is very subjective). A very slight timing advance is not that difficult to do, but fit that temperature guage first to make 100% certain its getting warmed up.

[RJE]

It’s a new exhaust system - had the original gas bottle ‘silencer’ replaced by Paul Redshaw so it’s definitely better than it was! 
Engine sounds very smooth at higher revs, fairly clattery at tickover speed which I think is normal for the JD3? 
Will try and take some photos tomorrow 

Oh and removed the air cleaner element for a while but no difference to the smoke! 

[dmr]

1 hour ago, RJE said:

It’s a new exhaust system - had the original gas bottle ‘silencer’ replaced by Paul Redshaw so it’s definitely better than it was! 
Engine sounds very smooth at higher revs, fairly clattery at tickover speed which I think is normal for the JD3? 
Will try and take some photos tomorrow 

Oh and removed the air cleaner element for a while but no difference to the smoke! 

 

A co-incidence, day before yesterday we shared some locks with a boat with a JD3 and the Redshaw exhaust, it sounded very good, I assume that wasn't you 😀

[RJE]

😊 probs not - was it on the GU heading towards Stoke Bruerne and quietly smoking? 

[dmr]

5 hours ago, RJE said:

😊 probs not - was it on the GU heading towards Stoke Bruerne and quietly smoking? 

Almost...going down Braunston locks.

[RJE]

 https://share.icloud.com/photos/036foaItuJdQl2VczAK7dXGvA
 

link may work to show the smoke at idle. As I mentioned, clean when revs increase with no load but smokes under load at all revs. 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/bndhEnsVn2egeyfZ8
 

this link may work if first doesn’t 

[dmr]

The smoke under load confuses me, is this just normal canal cruising load or are you really making it work hard somehow (like a big load on a travelpower)?

Even if the engine is a bit smokey on light load this should go away when its working hard, and then start to return when its almost at full load.

 

Tell me again, how long have you owned this boat and how long has this smoke been going on for?

If its moderately recent then what have you got in the diesel tank?  I purchased a tank full of nice fame free diesel from a reputable marina a few years ago and it smoked like hell, I used as much as I could and eventually paid to get the last bit sucked out.

 

Is there any evidence to suggest that the injection pump has been removed and replaced?

[RJE]

I’m thinking over-fuelling but I’m def not a diesel engine expert, maybe injection timing is off for some reason as previously mentioned, but no sign of anything ever being removed/replaced on the injection pump. 

We have owned boat for four years, always smoked a bit but seems to have become worse after we didn’t use regularly last year due into a health issue. Hence having injectors removed and checked initially assuming may be the issue but only helped for a few hours running.