New Solid state batteries on the horizon.

[doratheexplorer]

42 minutes ago, The Gravy Boater said:

Those who can, teach... those who can't, teach teachers... and those who can't teach teachers manage them. 

And those who can't manage teachers of teachers, go boating.

[ditchcrawler]

41 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

And those who can't manage teachers of teachers, go boating.

Wish I could

[magnetman]

2 hours ago, IanD said:

 

Suggest you read the threads on hybrid boats about efficiency -- there is a fuel/CO2 saving compared to a diesel (about 40%) but less than you might expect because losses in power transmission/generation/use partly offset the higher engine efficiency, in fact a lot of the saving is due to using much less fuel when going slow past moored boats and none in locks rather than higher efficiency when cruising.

 

Of course the more energy that comes from solar/renewables the bigger this saving becomes, which is why a big battery bank is needed because on a narrowboat it takes at least a couple of days of sun to replace the energy of a day of cruising.

 

A series hybrid with a big battery bank and onboard generator does offer all the advantages you've mentioned including fuel/CO2 saving, silent cruising, and future zero-emission (yes I know...) compatibility.

 

Which is why more and more people are going this route, including me (thanks again to peterboat for the Finesse recommendation, who do a "proper job" of it) -- but it's not cheap, the higher installation cost currently far exceeds the fuel savings over the lifetime of the boat. But if you want the advantages and can afford it, IMHO it's the way to go ?

At the end of the day you have to provide the recharging regardless of the size of the battery bank. 

 

If most of this is done by the diesel generator then a smaller battery bank reduces the overall initial system cost and batteries with higher cycle life will be more cost effective if the cycle life stat is true. 

 

As for canal boats if I was specifying a new one I would put the diesel on the shaft line as usual, add a generator to the diesel (direct drive preferably) and put a 4kw pod motor in the rudder. Upgraded rudder bearings obviously .

 

And a smaller than you might expect battery bank. 

 

That would be the best of both worlds I reckon. 

 

A properly quiet setup with two independent propulsion systems for redundancy. 

 

I'm sure that vectored thrust for close quarters maneouvering would be very satisfying and a nice old diesel to take out the range an inert issues.

 

Thats for a boat without a mains hookup.

 

Different story for mains connected boats obviously.

 

 

Edited February 23, 2021 by magnetman

[nicknorman]

There are people in every walk of life who resent new fangled things and are blind to any possibility of the newer thing being better than the 100year old thing. Which is kind of cute, but ultimately they are missing out. They just don’t realise it.
We definitely have that in gliding, people cling to ancient wood and fabric things, in part because modern hi tech composite ships are too complex for them to understand and have a much wider operating range than the old things, and therefore require more intelligent and skilful flying.

 

In the case of boaters and batteries, there are plenty who find virtue in making do with several candles and one flickering dim light bulb, along with lead acid at 25% or less than its badged capacity. They listen to the wireless, they don’t believe in the idiot lantern. They are blissful in their ignorance, so I suppose we should just let them get on with it.

 

But personally I enjoy discovering new technology and even though I have STILL been unable to install them, playing at home with my LiFePO4 batteries reveals they are what a battery should be - a simple store of energy without fuss, unlike lead acids which are moody, grumpy, weak-willed and mean (only liking to give half their capacity).

 

Roll on when I can get down to the boat and install my 600Ah, which will give me 600Ah!

[IanD]

Just now, nicknorman said:

There are people in every walk of life who resent new fangled things and are blind to any possibility of the newer thing being better than the 100year old thing. Which is kind of cute, but ultimately they are missing out. They just don’t realise it.
We definitely have that in gliding, people cling to ancient wood and fabric things, in part because modern hi tech composite ships are too complex for them to understand and have a much wider operating range than the old things, and therefore require more intelligent and skilful flying.

 

In the case of boaters and batteries, there are plenty who find virtue in making do with several candles and one flickering dim light bulb, along with lead acid at 25% or less than its badged capacity. They listen to the wireless, they don’t believe in the idiot lantern. They are blissful in their ignorance, so I suppose we should just let them get on with it.

 

But personally I enjoy discovering new technology and even though I have STILL been unable to install them, playing at home with my LiFePO4 batteries reveals they are what a battery should be - a simple store of energy without fuss, unlike lead acids which are moody, grumpy, weak-willed and mean (only liking to give half their capacity).

 

Roll on when I can get down to the boat and install my 600Ah, which will give me 600Ah!

700Ah at 48V for me... ?

[Alan de Enfield]

16 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

There are people in every walk of life who resent new fangled things and are blind to any possibility of the newer thing being better than the 100year old thing. Which is kind of cute, but ultimately they are missing out. They just don’t realise it.
We definitely have that in gliding, people cling to ancient wood and fabric things, in part because modern hi tech composite ships are too complex for them to understand and have a much wider operating range than the old things, and therefore require more intelligent and skilful flying.

 

In the case of boaters and batteries, there are plenty who find virtue in making do with several candles and one flickering dim light bulb, along with lead acid at 25% or less than its badged capacity. They listen to the wireless, they don’t believe in the idiot lantern. They are blissful in their ignorance, so I suppose we should just let them get on with it.

 

But personally I enjoy discovering new technology and even though I have STILL been unable to install them, playing at home with my LiFePO4 batteries reveals they are what a battery should be - a simple store of energy without fuss, unlike lead acids which are moody, grumpy, weak-willed and mean (only liking to give half their capacity).

 

Roll on when I can get down to the boat and install my 600Ah, which will give me 600Ah!

 

Doesn't the lithium 'rule' of 80% (max) -20% (min) apply ?

 

In which case you'd only be getting 360Ah.

[Col_T]

29 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Doesn't the lithium 'rule' of 80% (max) -20% (min) apply ?

 

In which case you'd only be getting 360Ah.

 

I think the 20=>80% range thing is more to prolong the life of the batteries, which implies that 0=>100% is perfectly feasible though it has consequences. That said, there is some discussion around whether 20=>80 causes a memory effect in lithiums, which might be regarded as the equivalent of LA sulfation. 

 

Fortunately, someone that actually knows will be along soon, he says, hopefully!

[magnetman]

 

 

I've got a few Mastervolt LFP batteries running off solar which are very good indeed but also just today I decided to see what the little Fullriver heavy lead AGM battery was like for engine starting. 

 

Two BMC 1.5D engines, not been run up for a few weeks.  One 14ah AGM "pure lead" battery. Heavy little blighter. 40 seconds heater plugs for each engine plus a certain amount of cranking. Battery did the job no problem whatsoever and happy to be charged as usual by alternator. No nonsense. 

 

So all three nackered heavy lead acids can be replaced with these little 14ah AGM  things. That's a relief! 

 

LFP for the domestic and AGM for engine starting. 

 

Ideal. 

 

I just plug a lead into a 12v outlet socket by the helm and the AGM will run a bit of charge to the LFP when engines running or if the solar is doing well engines off power flows the other way from LFP to AGM. 

 

Seems to work fine. Low consumer however. 

Edited February 23, 2021 by magnetman

[IanD]

41 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Doesn't the lithium 'rule' of 80% (max) -20% (min) apply ?

 

In which case you'd only be getting 360Ah.

Many of the commercial LiFePO4 batteries targeted at off-grid power (e.g. BYD) are rated at "0% to 100% DOD" -- of course this doesn't mean the cells inside don't keep some spare capacity at top or bottom end or both, but the headline capacity is the usable capacity (e.g. 15.4kWh) at the rated lifetime (e.g. 3000 cycles).

 

Doesn't apply if you're building yourself from cells, for maximum lifetime you shouldn't go all the way down to 0% or up to 100% (and certainly not keep them there!) every cycle, but occasional use of the full capacity won't do any harm and you should go to 100% occasionally anyway to top balance the cells -- but with careful and accurate charge control, and not leave them there for any great length of time.

Edited February 23, 2021 by IanD

[magnetman]

I'm intrigued that the Mastervolt batteries claim 2500 cycles and the BMS is set at 10v/15v. 

 

I wonder if they did actually test these figures out or if they assume someone spending out on this sort of gear will also have a well controlled charging setup. 

 

I only paid 1/3 of normal retail for new units so I'm not that bothered about it but it's interesting to see what actually happens. In my case they will often end up fully charged. I think I might wind down the Victron MPPT voltage a bit. I set it to 14.1v. 

 

Edited February 23, 2021 by magnetman

[IanD]

2 minutes ago, magnetman said:

I'm intrigued that the Mastervolt batteries claim 2500 cycles and the BMS is set at 10v/15v. 

 

I wonder if they did actually test these figures out or if they assume someone spending out on this sort of gear will also have a well controlled charging setup. 

 

 

https://www.pbo.co.uk/gear/lithium-batteries-for-boats-reviewed-12-of-the-best-lithium-boat-batteries-tested-62244/2

Lithium battery lifecycle claims

We could not verify the cycle life claims of the batteries we tested, but they are all between 2,500-5,000 at 80% DoD (depth of discharge), so are unlikely to all be wrong.

Having said that, when we asked the suppliers how they arrived at these cycle life claims, most admitted that the actual battery had not been cycled 5,000 times by them – it would take around 10 years to carry this out – but were based on figures quoted by the manufacturers of the individual cells inside the batteries.

[Dr Bob]

1 hour ago, Col_T said:

I think the 20=>80% range thing is more to prolong the life of the batteries, which implies that 0=>100% is perfectly feasible though it has consequences. That said, there is some discussion around whether 20=>80 causes a memory effect in lithiums, which might be regarded as the equivalent of LA sulfation. 

Whilst a lot of EV manufacturers will set 80% as the usual target to extend the lifetime, lifetime is not a key issue for me on the boat as mine will outlast me. I avoid 100% because it is safer to do that. My choice of 80% is more about safety.

The memory effect is interesting and there has never been discussion here (as I dont think any peeps actually operating have seen the effect). There has been a large discussion on the cruiser forum on the topic although no real evidence has been agreed. I've had some evidence on my system that it could be happening but the data could be something entirely different. I take my system up to typically 13.6V and then stop charging (so 80-85%) usually daily charging. When we parked up for the winter as the October lockdown hit, I tried to take the system up to 100%. Once the cells -which are pretty well top balanced- got to 3.45V (all at the same time), 2 of them decided to stay put and didnt increase in voltage (charging from a victron combi at 30A) with the other 2 going up to 3.55V. I had not seen that before as previously (3 times a year) they all went up to 3.5V+. I discharged and tried again the following day. Same result. Discharged and repeated but this time with a bit of oomph from the combi (100A) and all cells went up together (breaking through the 3.45V barrier) and the current tailed off nicely down to 25A where I was happy I was up to 100%. This type of behaviour was what had been reported on the cruiser forum.

Next time I go up to 100A I will pay more attention!

It seems from what peeps have reported on the crusier forum the you can recover from the memory effect and indeed if what I was seeing is a memory effect, it was easy to break through it so perhaps not as bad as sulphation in LA's which for me has always been the beginning of the end.....or the actual end!

 

[alistair1537]

7 hours ago, Slim said:

Which you will become one day (if you're fortunate). In the meanwhile you come over as an inexperienced newcomer who thinks he knows it all. 

Just some of my thoughts. 

Lol, you're hilarious. I'm already an old git. Do all narrow-boaters have narrow grumpy minds? As far as experience goes...lol again. Like I said to your mate Mrs. Smelly - You hanker for the good old days when you didn't have to learn anything new. If you go back to the origins of this post, I put up a video of new battery technology. Nothing else. Guess what? You're posting to a forum via a computer and the internet. I'm surprised you don't moan that you can't write letters to the editor any more...Ah. the good old days, when I wrote a missive to the County - and Samuel, my trusted manservant, carried it off in his forked stick...

[magnetman]

2 hours ago, IanD said:

https://www.pbo.co.uk/gear/lithium-batteries-for-boats-reviewed-12-of-the-best-lithium-boat-batteries-tested-62244/2

Lithium battery lifecycle claims

We could not verify the cycle life claims of the batteries we tested, but they are all between 2,500-5,000 at 80% DoD (depth of discharge), so are unlikely to all be wrong.

Having said that, when we asked the suppliers how they arrived at these cycle life claims, most admitted that the actual battery had not been cycled 5,000 times by them – it would take around 10 years to carry this out – but were based on figures quoted by the manufacturers of the individual cells inside the batteries.

Yes. I saw that and coincidentally I met the chap who wrote the article at his house just a few days ago. 

 

A very pleasant gentleman who talked almost as much as me ! What was meant to be just a collection of an eBay item ended up being 2 and a half hours of nattering about electric boats.. 

 

 

 

 

[Felshampo]

On 23/02/2021 at 09:32, Slim said:

May have something to do with the fact that some of us are stir crazy. "Those who can do, Those who can't, teach" (No reflection on teachers, my late wife was one) 

I thought the quote was preach not teach, it's a dig at shaman not intellectuals........