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New Solid state batteries on the horizon.


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1 minute ago, dmr said:

My Trojans are pretty much finished, only done 5-1/2 years of cycling everyday on an off grid liveaboard,  that's just 2000 cycles at various DoD's ?.

I'm an electrical/electronic engineer by training and like technology, and have seriously looked at Lithium, but on balance I think I'll get some more Trojans. Maybe next time it will be lithium...if I last that long.

 

...............Dave

I'd be interested to hear your estimate costs of running those as off-grid - I'm impressed that you managed 2000 cycles - would you factor charge times into your costs? How about noise levels and additional fag to fully charge - does that constitute a factor?

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1 minute ago, alistair1537 said:

I was going add, like Alan and yourself, but I thought I'd better not...

To be honest the reason most posters on here dont comment on these type of threads is that they have FLA batteries and for a good reason. We get a lot of people each year come on trying to re invent the wheel re batteries and all manner of stuff but the tried and tested methods work best. Especialy solid fuel stoves. Not saying in 30 years that some other methods may prevail but in my 30 years the mainstays have all remained the same.

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Just now, mrsmelly said:

To be honest the reason most posters on here dont comment on these type of threads is that they have FLA batteries and for a good reason. We get a lot of people each year come on trying to re invent the wheel re batteries and all manner of stuff but the tried and tested methods work best. Especialy solid fuel stoves. Not saying in 30 years that some other methods may prevail but in my 30 years the mainstays have all remained the same.

You probably commented on my idea of piping in outside air to my multi-fuel...it's working a treat, btw. I'm not re-inventing anything - just using modern practises to enhance existing technologies.

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22 minutes ago, alistair1537 said:

I haven't started my cruising phase yet - I only got the boat in 2020 and lock-down and the build and, and...also, I am a bit worried about reports that LiFePO4 don't get along with Alternators? Or is it the other way round? In any case, very few alternators are built with LiFePO4 in mind.

Their are ways to sort the problem of charging LifePo4s with the alternator I think we need to chat about it, Dr Bob does this as well as myself so if you want PM me your phone number and I will give it a go

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead–acid_battery

 

Here's a copy of wiki pages for interest...look at top right hand insert - it is a great comparative between the two chemistries.

 

 

Lithium iron phosphate battery
Specific energy 90–160 Wh/kg (320–580 J/g or kJ/kg)[1]
Energy density 325 Wh/L (1200 kJ/L)[1]
Specific power around 200 W/kg[2]
Energy/consumer-price 3.0–24 Wh/US$[3]
Time durability > 10 years
Cycle durability 2,000-12000[4] cycles
Nominal cell voltage 3.2 V
Lead–acid battery
Photo-CarBattery.jpg
Lead–acid car battery
Specific energy 35–40 Wh/kg[1]
Energy density 80–90 Wh/L[1]
Specific power 180 W/kg[2]
Charge/discharge efficiency 50–95%[3]
Energy/consumer-price 7 (sld) to 18 (fld) Wh/US$[4]
Self-discharge rate 3–20%/month[5]
Cycle durability <350 cycles[6]
Nominal cell voltage 2.1 V[7]
Charge temperature interval Min. −35 °C, max. 45 °C
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1 minute ago, alistair1537 said:

I'd be interested to hear your estimate costs of running those as off-grid - I'm impressed that you managed 2000 cycles - would you factor charge times into your costs? How about noise levels and additional fag to fully charge - does that constitute a factor?

 

2000 cycles is about what I would infer from the specs, in winter they get down to 50 or 60% soc, sometimes down to 40%, in summer we do a LOT of boating and they are mostly 80%+.

As far as noise is concerned I find them remarkably silent ??  or do you mean the engine? yes we have a big engine right in the middle of the boats, its rather loud, I rather like it. If I didn't like engines then I might choose to live in a house.

Having to charge to 100% every day is a myth invented by this forum, once every couple of weeks is fine (5-1/2 years on these batteries, I speak from first hand experience here). Usually a long days cruising will do the 100% charge easily (and even a bit of equalisation) but otherwise a long engine run with lots of washing machine stuff (via TravelPower) does the job.

 

I have seriously looked at a hybrid LA/Lithium system but the Lithium advantage is not as clear cut as the Lithium advocates say, but I am still working on this, 48volt Lithiums look rather attractive.

 

..........Dave

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4 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Their are ways to sort the problem of charging LifePo4s with the alternator I think we need to chat about it, Dr Bob does this as well as myself so if you want PM me your phone number and I will give it a go

At this stage, Peter, I'm more than supplied with charging capacity via Solar - I don't imagine that will change much even when cruising - there is no such thing as free power, and if I'm banging out charge via an additional alternator then it is costing me in diesel. On the other hand, free heating water is available to heat a calorifier so that is another no-brainer...Thanks for the offer, I'll certainly take you up on it if I change my mind.

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9 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

2000 cycles is about what I would infer from the specs, in winter they get down to 50 or 60% soc, sometimes down to 40%, in summer we do a LOT of boating and they are mostly 80%+.

As far as noise is concerned I find them remarkably silent ??  or do you mean the engine? yes we have a big engine right in the middle of the boats, its rather loud, I rather like it. If I didn't like engines then I might choose to live in a house.

Having to charge to 100% every day is a myth invented by this forum, once every couple of weeks is fine (5-1/2 years on these batteries, I speak from first hand experience here). Usually a long days cruising will do the 100% charge easily (and even a bit of equalisation) but otherwise a long engine run with lots of washing machine stuff (via TravelPower) does the job.

 

I have seriously looked at a hybrid LA/Lithium system but the Lithium advantage is not as clear cut as the Lithium advocates say, but I am still working on this, 48volt Lithiums look rather attractive.

 

..........Dave

I wonder if your cruising time and regime is in any way influenced by the need to charge the batteries? I mean, have you ever thought about stopping in an attractive looking mooring, but had to pass it up because your batteries needed a few more hours? Does that make sense? Or, am I being too much of a pedantic?

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9 minutes ago, alistair1537 said:

At this stage, Peter, I'm more than supplied with charging capacity via Solar - I don't imagine that will change much even when cruising - there is no such thing as free power, and if I'm banging out charge via an additional alternator then it is costing me in diesel. On the other hand, free heating water is available to heat a calorifier so that is another no-brainer...Thanks for the offer, I'll certainly take you up on it if I change my mind.

 

I believe solar does not work so well in the winter.

I have read this and my measurements rather confirm it.

I run the engine to go boating so the alternator output is almost free ?

 

..............Dave

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1 minute ago, alistair1537 said:

I wonder if your cruising time and regime is in any way influenced by the need to charge the batteries? I mean, have you ever thought about stopping in an attractive looking mooring, but had to pass it up because your batteries needed a few more hours? Does that make sense? Or, am I being too much of a pedantic?

 

I think I can say after almost 12 years of CC'ing, that we have never thought "that's a nice place, Oh bugger, the batteries are not charged".

 

Covid has caused us to be almost static for ages and some thought has to go into battery charging, it would be easier with Lithium, but not enough to justify the downsides at this stage.

LAs are very flexible, they just need a full charge once in a while.

and you can always stop and leave the engine running for a bit if you are worried about such stuff.

 

................Dave

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

I believe solar does not work so well in the winter.

I have read this and my measurements rather confirm it.

I run the engine to go boating so the alternator output is almost free ?

 

..............Dave

Yeah, I charge via a generator in winter - bank-side - Also, I'm not going to do much cruising in winter, so alternator is out too. But, due to LiFePO4 ability to suck up charge at incredible rates, I only need 1 - 2 hours running the generator. My point is, that my solar is more than adequate in Summer, which is also when I plan to do my cruising, so the alternator won't be necessary. 

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3 minutes ago, alistair1537 said:

Yeah, I charge via a generator in winter - bank-side - Also, I'm not going to do much cruising in winter, so alternator is out too. But, due to LiFePO4 ability to suck up charge at incredible rates, I only need 1 - 2 hours running the generator. My point is, that my solar is more than adequate in Summer, which is also when I plan to do my cruising, so the alternator won't be necessary. 

 

Diesels like to work hard, light load stuff does them no good at all, river cruising is good but canal stuff is a bit light, charging batteries from an alternator can double the load on the engine which will make it much happier. A generator on the bank is a bit anti-social. Why do you want to run a generator on the bank when you have an engine in the boat?

 

..........Dave

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1 minute ago, dmr said:

 

Diesels like to work hard, light load stuff does them no good at all, river cruising is good but canal stuff is a bit light, charging batteries from an alternator can double the load on the engine which will make it much happier. A generator on the bank is a bit anti-social. Why do you want to run a generator on the bank when you have an engine in the boat?

 

..........Dave

Engines are expensive to run and maintain - Generators are cheap as chips. If all I'm doing is moored-up charging, the load isn't there, the noise still is. 

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1 minute ago, alistair1537 said:

Engines are expensive to run and maintain - Generators are cheap as chips. If all I'm doing is moored-up charging, the load isn't there, the noise still is. 

 

With a suitable alternator and lithiums you can put a lot of load on an engine...and most generators are much louder than engines, maybe not inside the boat but certainly out  on the towpath.

 

........Dave

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11 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

With a suitable alternator and lithiums you can put a lot of load on an engine...and most generators are much louder than engines, maybe not inside the boat but certainly out  on the towpath.

 

........Dave

With a generator I don't put any load on my engine, and I live inside my boat, not on the tow path...also, I run the generator at respectful times.

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10 hours ago, alistair1537 said:

You probably commented on my idea of piping in outside air to my multi-fuel...it's working a treat, btw. I'm not re-inventing anything - just using modern practises to enhance existing technologies.

Ahh so that was you. I dont think I commented I dont remember, I do remember smiling to myself. I think I will let you get on with it as you most certainly want to reinvent the wheel. All I can say is " AHHHHHHHHHh Grasshopper, you have much to learn "

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19 hours ago, alistair1537 said:

I gather all the power systems you've had on the boats in 32 years came free? Nice!

 

And no composting toilet - shame, it must be hard, dreaming up little digs all the time...

As Tim spends 24/7 on his 240V enabled mooring, he doesnt need Li's. He doesnt really need LA's!!!!

Anyone who switches to Li's knows how useful they are and to me, reduction of engine running hours is the most use. They also work much better with Solar accepting full power all the time. I have not used my Li's for 5 months as we have been on lockdown and on a 240V supply. Come April we will be out and about and totally dependent again on the Li's. We are a heavy power user as we are not camping and it is so so much easier with Li's.

Alan hasnt got a canal boat so he wont see the benefits that we get. I wouldnt put them anywhere near a lumpy water boat as I wouldnt trust they could withstand the sort of physical stress you get when inshore/offshore. If you are running your engines all day, you dont need Li's.

It's not difficult to find a way to charge Li's via an alternator - there are a number of solutions.

Smelly hasn't got an ecofan either.

17 hours ago, alistair1537 said:

You probably commented on my idea of piping in outside air to my multi-fuel...it's working a treat, btw. I'm not re-inventing anything - just using modern practises to enhance existing technologies.

...yes, but that was a crap idea.

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1 hour ago, Dr Bob said:

As Tim spends 24/7 on his 240V enabled mooring, he doesnt need Li's. He doesnt really need LA's!!!!

Anyone who switches to Li's knows how useful they are and to me, reduction of engine running hours is the most use. They also work much better with Solar accepting full power all the time. I have not used my Li's for 5 months as we have been on lockdown and on a 240V supply. Come April we will be out and about and totally dependent again on the Li's. We are a heavy power user as we are not camping and it is so so much easier with Li's.

Alan hasnt got a canal boat so he wont see the benefits that we get. I wouldnt put them anywhere near a lumpy water boat as I wouldnt trust they could withstand the sort of physical stress you get when inshore/offshore. If you are running your engines all day, you dont need Li's.

It's not difficult to find a way to charge Li's via an alternator - there are a number of solutions.

Smelly hasn't got an ecofan either.

...yes, but that was a crap idea.

Plenty of lumpy water boaters have successfully used LiFePO4 without problems from physical stress, The key is to use small size cells (200Ah or less) and mount them properly in cell compression cases.

 

http://nordkyndesign.com/assembling-a-lithium-iron-phosphate-marine-house-bank/

 

"A sales manager at Sinopoly I was talking to was adamant about using 100Ah or 200Ah cells only for assembling marine battery banks, with 100Ah being preferred and 200Ah acceptable. Large cells simply don’t have the structural strength-to-weight ratio required to be taken to sea on board small crafts and would exhibit shortened life due to internal mechanical damage arising from on-going vessel motion."

 

 

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1 hour ago, Dr Bob said:

...yes, but that was a crap idea.

What?!! A carp idea? I've been sucking air through a 43mm pipe, 7.5m in length from my engine bay to my multifuel stove all Winter. It has worked like a dream. Even in the most gusty conditions, there is no way any smoke gets out of the system into the living space of the barge. The only time I have any sign of smoke is when I open the door too quickly to add more fuel.

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6 minutes ago, alistair1537 said:

What?!! A carp idea? I've been sucking air through a 43mm pipe, 7.5m in length from my engine bay to my multifuel stove all Winter. It has worked like a dream. Even in the most gusty conditions, there is no way any smoke gets out of the system into the living space of the barge. The only time I have any sign of smoke is when I open the door too quickly to add more fuel.

Its not about smoke as we all told you in the other thread. Its about ventilation and keeping condensation down but as you are new to the canals, you will not have a good base lien to compare to. lets not discuss that here. This is a battery thread. Reply on the other thread.

 

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1 hour ago, IanD said:

Plenty of lumpy water boaters have successfully used LiFePO4 without problems from physical stress, The key is to use small size cells (200Ah or less) and mount them properly in cell compression cases.

Mmmm.

That nordkyn site was one of the 2 'bible' sites I have used and promoted since I have been involved in Li's so you dont need to tell me.

However, I see your response encourages peeps to use 'smaller' Li's on their lumpy water boats. Have you ANY first hand experience of Li's and lumpy water  boats or are you just one of the many people that sees something on the internet and regurgitates it? It is dangerous to promote something that may not be safe.

The text you quote says "plenty of...boaters have successfully used ....without problems". Does it say all? No. Why not? Likely because a number have had problems of physical stress. How many? I dont have a clue....and neither do you!

I have mentioned on a number of threads about Li's that I am professionally connected to a company doing work on destruction of Li cells for air transportation. Over the past 2 years we have destroyed a large number of cells so I have first hand experience of what can go wrong. In my own case I have done a rigorous risk review and mitigation on my lithium set up which is mainly around risk of fire but also looks at mechanical damage. For a narrow boat, physical damage is very unlikely and will only happen in very limited circumstances and can be mitigated by good practise. I also have extensive experience of sailing yachts in very poor sea conditions having completed many North Sea races in all sorts of weather. Even beating into a force 6 with wind over tide conditions in coastal waters causes slamming that would not be kind to any sort of battery. It is not the risk of one 'bang'. Far from it. It is the risk from continous hammering from vibration or wave to wave crashes.

I use 160Ahr cells on my installation and it is my personal view that I would put them nowhere near a lumpy water boat as there is a risk they will go wrong.

"The key is to use small size cells (200Ahr or less)"!!!!!! So 201Ahr is bad but 200Ahr is ok? Why the change over at that size? That quote comes from a battery company. They want to sell batteries. Have you your own data on that - or are you just copying others? Read some of the links I provided on other threads on fire safety of cells and you will see that one of the causes of fire is physical damage. Vibration or constant hammering can damage these cells - yes 160Ahr ones. Yes plenty of lumpy water boats have succeeded but not all....and I wouldnt chance it. If you have first hand experience to advise peeps to do it then let us know.....but you dont do you?

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47 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Mmmm.

 

I use 160Ahr cells on my installation and it is my personal view that I would put them nowhere near a lumpy water boat as there is a risk they will go wrong.

 

I have no first hand experience of lithiums, so have a basic question......

Lots of batteries look to be made up of lots of little cylindrical cells spot welded together, this looks a bit naff to me.

Prismatic cells is I believe a posh name for square cells ? So when you have 160Ah cells is this one big square cell?, or is it still several smaller square cells interconnected?

 

Obviously some cells in series, but is each individual cell a full 160Ah?

 

.............Dave

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23 hours ago, alistair1537 said:

I haven't started my cruising phase yet - I only got the boat in 2020 and lock-down and the build and, and...also, I am a bit worried about reports that LiFePO4 don't get along with Alternators? Or is it the other way round? In any case, very few alternators are built with LiFePO4 in mind.

If you haven't already investigated this it may be worth watching Journey With Jono's vids on the matter.  I seem to remember he addressed this specific issue in his configuration. Given that he was subsequently employed by Victron I imagine he got it right. 

 

I looked in detail at Lithium but decided against it last time on account of not having enough electronics experience and everything costing 2-3 times more than it should if it has the word 'boat' in the title.  The RV market in the States seems to be driving the development of so called 'Solar Generators' / 'Power Stations'... basically just lithium batteries, a solar controller, inverter, BMS and assorted connectivity in a box. Indiegogo is awash with prototypes and stuff going into production but supply is screwed by Covid. The prices are comparable to what you would pay for similar amp hours of lithium boat batteries. Maybe this will help drive adoption of lithium... economies of scale by tapping into a much larger market (RVing, Camping, all off-griddery) and making it idiot proof. 

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3 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

Mmmm.

That nordkyn site was one of the 2 'bible' sites I have used and promoted since I have been involved in Li's so you dont need to tell me.

However, I see your response encourages peeps to use 'smaller' Li's on their lumpy water boats. Have you ANY first hand experience of Li's and lumpy water  boats or are you just one of the many people that sees something on the internet and regurgitates it? It is dangerous to promote something that may not be safe.

The text you quote says "plenty of...boaters have successfully used ....without problems". Does it say all? No. Why not? Likely because a number have had problems of physical stress. How many? I dont have a clue....and neither do you!

I have mentioned on a number of threads about Li's that I am professionally connected to a company doing work on destruction of Li cells for air transportation. Over the past 2 years we have destroyed a large number of cells so I have first hand experience of what can go wrong. In my own case I have done a rigorous risk review and mitigation on my lithium set up which is mainly around risk of fire but also looks at mechanical damage. For a narrow boat, physical damage is very unlikely and will only happen in very limited circumstances and can be mitigated by good practise. I also have extensive experience of sailing yachts in very poor sea conditions having completed many North Sea races in all sorts of weather. Even beating into a force 6 with wind over tide conditions in coastal waters causes slamming that would not be kind to any sort of battery. It is not the risk of one 'bang'. Far from it. It is the risk from continous hammering from vibration or wave to wave crashes.

I use 160Ahr cells on my installation and it is my personal view that I would put them nowhere near a lumpy water boat as there is a risk they will go wrong.

"The key is to use small size cells (200Ahr or less)"!!!!!! So 201Ahr is bad but 200Ahr is ok? Why the change over at that size? That quote comes from a battery company. They want to sell batteries. Have you your own data on that - or are you just copying others? Read some of the links I provided on other threads on fire safety of cells and you will see that one of the causes of fire is physical damage. Vibration or constant hammering can damage these cells - yes 160Ahr ones. Yes plenty of lumpy water boats have succeeded but not all....and I wouldnt chance it. If you have first hand experience to advise peeps to do it then let us know.....but you dont do you?

I was simply quoting from a site which most people acknowledge as being one of the best sources of reliable information about lithium batteries on yachts -- if you don't like the advice (which was a direct quote) I suggest you argue with them ?

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