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robtheplod

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8 minutes ago, frangar said:

I ask again how long are you prepared to have your free movement and normal life suspended for? What number of deaths are you happy with? How are you thinking of paying for it? 

If the hospitals are allowed to be overwhelmed with Covid patients then there will be a lot more deaths of people who need medical help and assistance but can not get it.

 

Lockdowns are not intended to suspend "normal life" they are intended to limit the number of patients requiring NHS treatment.

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1 minute ago, Naughty Cal said:

If the hospitals are allowed to be overwhelmed with Covid patients then there will be a lot more deaths of people who need medical help and assistance but can not get it.

 

Lockdowns are not intended to suspend "normal life" they are intended to limit the number of patients requiring NHS treatment.

Whilst hospitals are busy we've not needed any of the nightingale units that were set up....This is a good thing!..but in a bad year hospital ICU'S can be full of normal flu patients....it just so happens that last year had low flu cases....but you dont have to go back far to find years with 20,000 deaths from flu....yet life wasn't stopped 

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12 minutes ago, frangar said:

What number of deaths are you happy with?


It would be good if you could answer that particular question, although happy isn’t the right word is it.

 

In early January the rate was in the region of 1000 per day, or about 365,000 a year.

 

Since we locked down, that rate has fallen to around 300 to 400 per day, so “only”, about 130,000 a year.

 

Flu kills around 17000 a year on average, (7000 in a good year, and 20000+ in a bad year), or around 50 a day.

 

What number of deaths are you happy with?

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1 hour ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Facebook is full of conspiracy theorists claiming that no-one is allowed to mention conspiracy theories. It's amazing how many people are aware of these secrets which we aren't allowed to know or share. It is also amazing that anyone is daft enough to believe that a bunch of politicians could keep anything secret for very long. They seem to think that a gollop of incompetents who couldn't run a sweetshop can control everything in sight without anyone suspecting (except a couple million FB posters). So far, there's no sign of that level of competence from a single politician of any party. Could be the Queen, I suppose... Or interplanetary lizard people. I have a friend, who otherwise shows distinct signs of intelligence, who believes everything David Icke says.

A Gollop!

I like that ;)

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2 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:


It would be good if you could answer that particular question, although happy isn’t the right word is it.

 

In early January the rate was in the region of 1000 per day, or about 365,000 a year.

 

Since we locked down, that rate has fallen to around 300 to 400 per day, so “only”, about 130,000 a year.

 

Flu kills around 17000 a year on average, (7000 in a good year, and 20000+ in a bad year), or around 50 a day.

 

What number of deaths are you happy with?

As previously stated Im happy to get on with life tomorrow. Quite happy to get to a pub or eat in a restaurant or indeed work on an event

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2 minutes ago, frangar said:

Whilst hospitals are busy we've not needed any of the nightingale units that were set up....This is a good thing!..but in a bad year hospital ICU'S can be full of normal flu patients....it just so happens that last year had low flu cases....but you dont have to go back far to find years with 20,000 deaths from flu....yet life wasn't stopped 

 

I think you will find that amounts to the 'understatement of the year'.

 

Our local hospital was running 4 ICU's in recent weeks. The 'Normal' one, the HDU was running as an ICU as where two additional areas not normally utilised for ICU patients Staffing ratios had to be reduced too from 1 to 1 to 1 to 2. Some hospitals had to go to 1 to 3.

 

And why do you think we had low flu cases??

 

Something to do with social distancing perhaps? Perhaps that was even part of the strategy, like immunising over 60's for free.

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3 minutes ago, frangar said:

Whilst hospitals are busy we've not needed any of the nightingale units that were set up....


I think you will find that the general consensus is that there hasn’t been the staff available to man them, so that’s a bit of a red herring, isn’t it!?

 

It isn’t rocket science to see that Boris is limited by the capacity of the NHS without the Nightingale hospitals.

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27 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Everyone else did. It was on BBC News. Did you also miss the pre Xmas crowds in Oxford Street? 

The PM squirming his way out of, "family parties are OK on Christmas Day", about three days bafore Xmas? 

Something of an exaggeration, I think.

 

I thought that family parties WERE allowed on Christmas Day, so no one "squirmed" their way out of them. Can you imagine how the headlines would have read otherwise: "Scrogge government blah blah blah...."?

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18 minutes ago, frangar said:

Lots of causes of death & serious injury are theoretically avoidable yet they are still allowed....road & air transport....the normal flu...etc etc....do you want to stop these too as you seem to want to preserve every life even if that means no quality of life.

The difference is that if someone dies in a plane crash, that event does not cause a few other people to die a few weeks later.  Infectious diseases are a very different ball game to other causes of deaths.

 

When it comes to flu, there's a good argument that we could and should do a lot more.  The last few months have shown how significantly we can suppress flu with social distancing, mask wearing etc.  But there's also a fair argument that those measures are an unreasonable infringment on personal liberty when it comes to flu.  In any case, by and large we know that the measures we take seasonally with flu (vaccination of the elderly for example), give us a good chance of keeping the seasonal outbreaks under control and preventing NHS services from being overwhelmed.  That is not the case with Covid-19.  Flu rates have been suppressed by around 90% this flu season.  If we use that as a proxy for covid, it's not to hard to conclude that had we done nothing, UK deaths would probably be in excess of 1 million by now.

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Just now, Athy said:

Something of an exaggeration, I think.

 

I thought that family parties WERE allowed on Christmas Day, so no one "squirmed" their way out of them. Can you imagine how the headlines would have read otherwise: "Scrogge government blah blah blah...."?

How many people wouldn't have contracted Covid and gone on to be seriously ill or died had Christmas been cancelled?

 

I genuinely think that allowing Christmas to continue was a big error of judgement from the government and has extended lock down further.

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1 minute ago, Richard10002 said:


I think you will find that the general consensus is that there hasn’t been the staff available to man them, so that’s a bit of a red herring, isn’t it!?

 

It isn’t rocket science to see that Boris is limited by the capacity of the NHS without the Nightingale hospitals.

 

My understanding was in the end the preference was to extend within existing hospital site thus keeping all the expertise together even if this was at the expense of other services.

 

I also understand a lot of the equipment bought for the Nightingale hospitals was pressed into service in the 'make shift' expanded hospital ICU's.

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4 minutes ago, frangar said:

As previously stated Im happy to get on with life tomorrow. Quite happy to get to a pub or eat in a restaurant or indeed work on an event


I see that you struggle to give a straight answer :(

 

For clarity, I am reading that you are happy with at least 130,000 deaths a year. I could guess that you weren’t in favour of being locked down from early January, so you could easily be happy with 365,000 deaths a year, or more?

 

So how many deaths are you happy with?

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13 minutes ago, frangar said:

Whilst hospitals are busy we've not needed any of the nightingale units that were set up....This is a good thing!..but in a bad year hospital ICU'S can be full of normal flu patients....it just so happens that last year had low flu cases....but you dont have to go back far to find years with 20,000 deaths from flu....yet life wasn't stopped 

Oh, we really did need them, but we had no staff to put in them.  Another piece of priceless idiocy from our government.

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11 minutes ago, frangar said:

Whilst hospitals are busy we've not needed any of the nightingale units that were set up....This is a good thing!..but in a bad year hospital ICU'S can be full of normal flu patients....it just so happens that last year had low flu cases....but you dont have to go back far to find years with 20,000 deaths from flu....yet life wasn't stopped 

Have you considered where you find the staff to man 3 new hospitals, they are struggling to man the existing ones. Also I think you will find that the Nightingale hospitals dont actually offer whats required 

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14 minutes ago, frangar said:

Whilst hospitals are busy we've not needed any of the nightingale units that were set up....This is a good thing!..but in a bad year hospital ICU'S can be full of normal flu patients....it just so happens that last year had low flu cases....but you dont have to go back far to find years with 20,000 deaths from flu....yet life wasn't stopped 

The cognitive dissonance is strong here.

 

Why do you think the last year had low flu cases?  ?

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16 minutes ago, frangar said:

Whilst hospitals are busy we've not needed any of the nightingale units that were set up....This is a good thing!..but in a bad year hospital ICU'S can be full of normal flu patients....it just so happens that last year had low flu cases....but you dont have to go back far to find years with 20,000 deaths from flu....yet life wasn't stopped 

 

Yes they have, many have been pressed into service providing medical care for those who's treatment would have otherwise been delayed by the pressure of Covid 19 on Hospitals.

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1 minute ago, frangar said:

It’s interesting that there’s a lot of criticism of the government’s handling of events but unblinking dedication to the lockdowns. I find that interesting. 

Perhaps because some of us are actually listening to scientists and thinking for ourselves.  I began wearing a mask on the 6th of April last year, because I read the research on their usefulness.  The government passed law on mask wearing in July, because they couldn't guarantee supply any earlier than that, because our preparedness for a respiratory pandemic was non-existant.

 

Unusually, I was in a supermarket on the day before the mask wearing rules came in and on the following day.  The first vist 90% of people weren't wearing them.  The second visit 90% of people were.  Draw your own conclusions from that.  My take is that most people are a combination of stupid and compliant.

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3 minutes ago, frangar said:

It’s interesting that there’s a lot of criticism of the government’s handling of events but unblinking dedication to the lockdowns. I find that interesting. 

I think that is because a lot of people wanted the lockdown before the PM did it and likewise didn't want it lifted over Christmas which the PM did and that he is at last doing what they feel is right. (that sounds a bit waffely but there)

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Just now, ditchcrawler said:

I think that is because a lot of people wanted the lockdown before the PM did it and likewise didn't want it lifted over Christmas which the PM did and that he is at last doing what they feel is right. (that sounds a bit waffely but there)

True.  Lockdown has barely changed anything for me.  Many others are the same.  Taking their own precautions irrespective of the latest whims of government.

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1 minute ago, ditchcrawler said:

I think that is because a lot of people wanted the lockdown before the PM did it and likewise didn't want it lifted over Christmas which the PM did and that he is at last doing what they feel is right. (that sounds a bit waffely but there)

Im not quite sure who really wants lockdown...my 72 year old mother is less than keen on it....neither are her contemporaries when you talk to them...and indeed not a lot of them are complying when you talk to them..they have organised hair dressers....visited friends & family..generally just got on with life ..Also there are quite a few boaters of a retired age who cant wait to get out boating....as one said "Ive not many years left....I may as well make the most of them"

 

As I keep saying...if you want to stay locked away thats fine...im not judging you....but let those that want to get back to normal do it!

5 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

True.  Lockdown has barely changed anything for me.  Many others are the same.  Taking their own precautions irrespective of the latest whims of government.

Arent you the lucky one.....the lockdown itself has been life changing in all sorts of ways for a lot of the population and not in a good way

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2 minutes ago, frangar said:

Im not quite sure who really wants lockdown...my 72 year old mother is less than keen on it....neither are her contemporaries when you talk to them...and indeed not a lot of them are complying when you talk to them..they have organised hair dressers....visited friends & family..generally just got on with life ..Also there are quite a few boaters of a retired age who cant wait to get out boating....as one said "Ive not many years left....I may as well make the most of them"

And this is why the number of deaths now stands at over 100,000.  These people are all responisble.

 

As I keep saying...if you want to stay locked away thats fine...im not judging you....but let those that want to get back to normal do it!

Arent you the lucky one.....the lockdown itself has been life changing in all sorts of ways for a lot of the population and not in a good way

It's nothing to do with luck, it's taking social responsibilty for those more vulnerable, even selfish 72 year olds.  I would love to be doing more things (including boating), but if doing those things risks spreading the virus, then it's a no from me.

 

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18 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

.

 

Why do you think the last year had low flu cases?  ?

That's a good question. I always thought (and indeed my parents said) that a cold winter killed off germs; last winter was exceedingly mild, which should have allowed the germs to survive, proliferate and infect people, so I'm really not sure. Why do you think it was?

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