Anything special you need to move on (for liveaboard NB)?

[Mad Harold]

On 15/02/2021 at 17:08, Athy said:

Whilst I do love my Gardner engine, I don't go as far as praying to it.

Try it. It might by a miracle turn into a Kelvin.?

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Idle Days said:

 

Look on the bright side, you forgot to factor in the credit for the fresh air, views and the camaraderie of sites like this.  

 

 

There is that, but as our house is very, very rural with our nearest neighbour a mile away, we are surrounded by our own fields full of goats, ponies, hens and geese, its actually nice to see people.

 

Of course the 'CWDF camaraderie is also available 'on land'.

 

 

A occasional change in view is nice.

 

Our 'back garden', then scenery from the boat.

 

 

[Blob Fish]

57 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

That is not my experience, my boat costs me more per annum than my house costs me. (Both are 'paid for')

 

Boat moorings cost 2x more than house council tax

Boat fuel costs more than domestic electricity and oil (Fuel for electricity generation as well as propulsion)

Boat insurance costs more than the house insurance

Boat maintenance costs are way higher than the house maintenance costs

Marina electricity costs 25% more than my house electric.

 

I think it's fair to say that your experience is not the standard experience? Most people don't own their houses outright, and indeed many increasingly move onto the canals to escape the rent trap. Many NBs cost the deposit of a house - even if moorings are higher than council tax, over decades, I doubt it would total the difference between deposit and cost of the house (let's say £200k). 

 

And repairs and all that for NBs can quickly get into the thousands, but that's no different than owning a home. But I would argue that serious housing problems can be even worse. Roofing, foundation repairs etc can easily go into the tens of thousands. The great thing about owning a home is the ability to build up equity of course, which is something you can't do with a NB. But for most people, that will involve a couple working fulltime for 20-30 years paying off the mortgage.

 

NB, home ownership, or both - all options are fine of course! Everyone ought to do what works for them best  

[Alan de Enfield]

12 minutes ago, Blob Fish said:

 

I think it's fair to say that your experience is not the standard experience? Most people don't own their houses outright, and indeed many increasingly move onto the canals to escape the rent trap. Many NBs cost the deposit of a house - even if moorings are higher than council tax, over decades, I doubt it would total the difference between deposit and cost of the house (let's say £200k). 

 

And repairs and all that for NBs can quickly get into the thousands, but that's no different than owning a home. But I would argue that serious housing problems can be even worse. Roofing, foundation repairs etc can easily go into the tens of thousands. The great thing about owning a home is the ability to build up equity of course, which is something you can't do with a NB. But for most people, that will involve a couple working fulltime for 20-30 years paying off the mortgage.

 

NB, home ownership, or both - all options are fine of course! Everyone ought to do what works for them best  

 

 

I think we just have to agree to disagree.

 

It is speculation but I think the age profile of members on CWDF would suggest that possibly many do own their house. or have very small mortgages.

 

How does a house roof repair get into '0000's ? When you see a broken tile you replace it. - cost £'s

Insurance would cover any major problems anyway (well ours does, with cover for up to £1m to knock down, clear the site and re-build. Includes 'accidental damage as well)

 

 

Edited February 17, 2021 by Alan de Enfield

[Slim]

On 15/02/2021 at 15:57, NB Alnwick said:

 

 

 

Yes changeover was at the end of last year . . .

Good.

[enigmatic]

14 hours ago, Blob Fish said:

Wow, so many amazing replies, thank you so much everyone!! Recording everything into our Google Docs, thanks again!!

 

Is it alright if I post here for comments a couple of NBs we are seriously considering? We feel it's come down to these two:

 

Amelia

https://www.google.com/url?q=https://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/boat/walsall-boats-60-traditional-for-sale/618589&sa=D&source=editors&ust=1613508375406000&usg=AOvVaw0epDWf2tk7F9IKYa9SqWVl

Pros: think it looks quite nice inside and out, and love the dinette, but it does need some work. Most notably: internal doors installed (so we can both have online meetings simultaneously if needed); second bed removed (which means removing the pump out tank).

 

Madhatter

https://www.venetianmarina.co.uk/used-narrowboats/details/5423.aspx

(video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12tfnesyaMQ&feature=share&fbclid=IwAR3j6Y-akB0L3EWCu1Yj3IbOuRytoxVD-fMnHC5eaoITOozR6GQ7N0xbVMY)

Pros: the layout is incredible for us - the dinette in the back is all ready to be an office, plus there's even a closet. Not to mention, but it's got a Thetford cassette so it'll be easy to convert to a composting setup, which we prefer. For work to be done however: clearly needs some work on the outside to touch up the rust (which we hear might not be too difficult to DIY it?), the shower too will need new grout and maybe tile, and you can see in the pictures the air fresheners which is a potential red flag. There's a dehumidifier in the bedroom cabin as well, and we're no strangers to dealing with excess humidity in living spaces unfortunately and that eternal quest of trying to create proper ventilation, but the marina has acknowledged that while there is water damage around the windows, most of it looks "historic" save for a window in the saloon which feels damp. We're not sure how to interpret that (ie how potentially serious it could be), but anything to do with water damage sounds like a headache. Also the keel cooled engine, which I've just been reading is not exactly ideal...

 

We have a viewing arranged for Amelia soon, but we're incredibly tempted to see if we can put in an offer conditional on survey for the Madhatter because of how quickly boats can go and we just love the layout so much. We feel strongly about both boats, although they both will need some work. Decisions decisions!  

Someone else asked about Amelia a couple of months ago IIRC so you might find some other opinions by searching this forum

 

Madhatter looks tidy for its age if that's the original fitout. The engine is a modern type which will be newer than the boat. The "water damage" may well just be drip marks from condensation spoiling the appearance of the wood, which isn't worrying but isn't pretty either. That's what it looks like under the kitchen porthole. 

 

The bit you really need to worry about especially in a 37 year old boat with 6m plate is the condition of the hull, which you won't know for sure until you've had it surveyed. A lot depends on how much is needed to "touch up". If it's just a few scratches on the rubbing strakes on the upper part of the hull it's nothing to worry about since they get scratched if you actually use your boat anyway, but if there are bits of the sides and roof that need repainting its probably a question of whether you're happy sanding and painting five layers yourself (or having it look a bit like a patchwork quilt, or paying a third of the cost of the boat for a pro job). Personally I wouldn't even consider making the offer based on photos (you won't get a deposit refunded if its just a bit scruffier than you'd hoped for) but some people do.

 

[Blob Fish]

6 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

The bit you really need to worry about especially in a 37 year old boat with 6m plate is the condition of the hull, which you won't know for sure until you've had it surveyed. 

 

Apparently 6mm was a mistake, it's 8mm! They've just emailed us the survey from 2019  

And yeah, a slightly scruffier boat - for sure it's natural that a lot of people get a certain degree of their self-esteem and happiness based on how their home looks! Perhaps, though, we are a bit lucky in that we've lived abroad and learned to appreciate the inside more than the out! No one could object to a gleaming fresh pro paintjob on a NB, but so long as we're cosy (and dry...)  

It's just that we've looked at so many boats and seeing one that has what could be a proper little office good to go is amazing to us. We'll both be working remotely on the boat, at opposite ends, and there'll be frequent and (simultaneous) video meetings. The use of space on different boats is quite extraordinary, can't believe Madhatter's only 58'...

[BWM]

The phone number of your most practically minded friend, as a lot of problems will seem daunting until you are settled in and more familiar with the boat.

[Blob Fish]

On 15/02/2021 at 16:09, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Thats a nice aspiration but you need to accept that much of what you do will have a much bigger affect on the environment than living in a house.

 

 

So, your thoughts on NBs not being particularly eco-friendly has got me thinking. (I am so late to respond because err life!! :P)

 

Now, I am perfectly willing to concede that NB diesel engines are not ideal (and neither are loads of windmill farms - just ask the birds and bats!). But as they say: “Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good” (and let’s hope that hybrid and electric engines or whatever’s more eco-friendly becomes more and more common!). 

 

So I think you’re probably forgetting a few things when estimating the environmental impact of NBs. Aside from having lifestyles that generate too much greenhouse gases, the average citizen of the developed world uses far too much water. You mentioned that narrowboaters need to use the engine to get water - but what about how much water the average narrowboater uses compared to someone who lives in a house and can mindlessly turn the tap on and off, take luxuriously long showers or nightly baths? It’s not just fuel we need to conserve in daily life, but water as well. Leaving the lights on in unused rooms too, or laptops or the TV running, all these things you are much much more careful about when cruising than in a house. Granted some people hole up in marinas all year, but I would be pretty confident to guess that narrowboaters use far (far) less water and electricity than those on land. 

 

Further, please don’t underestimate how living in a smaller space will influence other important behaviour that greatly impacts our environment. A decade ago the NYT had a very interesting article in which they asked: is it really better for the environment to buy that organic hemp sofa, or a normal sofa?

 

And the answer was? Neither sofa - keep your old one. There is a reason why they say: reduce, reuse and recycle - and in that order. (It is so frustrating how so many people view recycling as like a neutral or even beneficial thing...the recycling trucks are still spewing co2, and the energy at the plants to process the material is not nothing either.)

 

Compared to most people, we are probably shockingly minimalist, but I know even so on a NB I will have to pare down my wardrobe - and keep it small! And we know of a family, a couple plus their three children, they’ve been living on the canals for years (9?) and they absolutely love it. Somehow, I don’t think their kids are growing up with the usual mountain of fossil fuel-derived plastic toys that most kids these days do.

 

Living on a narrowboat will discourage mindless consumption (of water, electricity and goods), and seeing as how excessive consumption is currently murdering the environment…….

 

But let’s also take a look at the diesel used by NBs, since honestly that does make me feel a bit uneasy. Nevertheless: the average household in the UK / developed world usually maintains at least one car. NBs are kinda neat in that they combine house and car in one. Now, it can’t be understated how much I enjoy rambling about the countryside and exploring walking trails. So by living on a NB, rather than driving frequently about to visit different trails (and then driving back to home base), we can take our home to them. It’s like the ultimate form of glamping (and btw I am the sort who would gladly go camping for weeks at the drop of a hat)  

 

As for more specific figures on how much CO2 NBs create vs homes, I’ve only done a quick Google but some highlights:

 

http://ftp.iza.org/dp7204.pdf 

“According to our study, median UK household emissions are 17.1 tonnes of CO2 emission per year whilst the mean is as high as 20.2 tonnes.”

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/climate-change-carbon-emissions-family-household-flights-vegan-a9203096.html

“Roughly, the average middle-class family of four’s carbon emissions for food and energy are as follows:

16.00 tons -  General consumerism

12.00 tons – Meat based diet

10.00 tons – Family flight to Miami 

4.60 tons – Two cars driven at UK average mileage of 14,800 km/year

2.25 tons -  Gas central heating

0.75 tons – Electricity (if not on an 100 per cent renewable green tariff)

0.20 tons – Water supply (although this calculation does not include the high carbon cost of hot water or its ecological impacts)”

 

So you estimated that a narrowboater will use the engine for approximately four hours per day? I am only quickly googling, but on average that’s four litres per day? So: 4 x 365 = 1460 litres per year; each litre is about 2.62 kg of CO2 so that’s 3825.2 kg of co2 per year (let’s call it 4k). I’m too lazy atm to account for NB stoves, but you know, one of the most important things we could do, even beforewind power became more common, was to move into a smaller living space to help the environment. Even if your heat is from wind power, heating excess space is still not good...and well, excess space is hardly a problem for most people on NBs!  

 

So, I really do think it’s fair to say, narrowboat living - despite the diesel engine and stove - will drastically lower the carbon footprint of the average Brit!

[enigmatic]

I think the stove use is probably more of an environmental hazard than the diesel use, especially in the immediate area. Though in theory wrapping up warm is an option..., 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

48 minutes ago, Blob Fish said:

You mentioned that narrowboaters need to use the engine to get water - but what about how much water the average narrowboater uses compared to someone who lives in a house and can mindlessly turn the tap on and off, take luxuriously long showers or nightly baths?

 

I agree with much of what you say, and your conclusions, but with regard to water, YES it is far easier and more 'wasteful' to have an unlimited supply 'on tap', but there is exacatly the same amount of water on the planet now as there was in the time of the Dinosaurs.

 

We do not 'lose' or 'waste' water it is a 'water-cycle**', but what is wasteful is having 'cleaned and filtered it' (and the 'costs', both financially and environmentally) and then transported it, is to pour a high percentage 'down the drain 'unused'.

It was also said (some years ago) that 30+% of water was 'lost' in the water mains between resevoir and tap due to lack of maintenace of the old 'Victorian' supply system. I guess that is slowly being corrected with new plastic water mains ( plastic - that stuff manufactured from Dinosaur juice !!!!) being laid.

 

Boaters certainly are more frugal with their potable water simply because it is not easy to get.

 

** With the old story that the water in the River Thames has already passed thru 3 humans before it gets to you.

 

There is a good opportunity for improvements in both land based houses and boats, but equally it depends on the way we use them. (My boat uses 10 litres an hour, 10 times the figures used in your calculations).

 

I would suggest that most boaters (even CCers) maintain one car which as it is regularly 'left' in field gates, country lanes, pub car-parks, laybys etc it will not be the latest environmentally friendly one that does 60 miles on a teaspoon of petrol, but, (like ours) is an old diesel doing about 25mpg and having emissions in the highest rating. We can leave it parked on the side of the road for weeks on end and it is still there when we come back.

[Thomas C King]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I agree with much of what you say, and your conclusions, but with regard to water, YES it is far easier and more 'wasteful' to have an unlimited supply 'on tap', but there is exacatly the same amount of water on the planet now as there was in the time of the Dinosaurs.

 

Probably not true actually, the earth loses hydrogen to space.

[GUMPY]

14 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

I think the stove use is probably more of an environmental hazard than the diesel use, especially in the immediate area. Though in theory wrapping up warm is an option..., 

 

Solid fuel produces 0.392kg C02 per kWh

Being generous we can say that a boat stove produces 2kW so over 24hrs that's about 19kg CO2, My stove used to be on from November to March so that's 23 weeks or just over 3tonnes of CO2.

If the stove is 3kw that is 4.5tonnes of CO2

 

Interestingly those figures are pretty similar to a new domestic boiler and an old domestic boiler consuming 15000kWh a year.

 

So heating a boat is not that much different to heating a whole house

 

 

 

[David Mack]

3 hours ago, Blob Fish said:

but what about how much water the average narrowboater uses compared to someone who lives in a house and can mindlessly turn the tap on and off, take luxuriously long showers or nightly baths?

But have you taken into account the water used when you pass through locks? True, it has not been treated, but depending on where you are boating that water may have been back pumped up a flight of locks, or drawn from a borehole or old mineshaft, all of which has an energy cost?

[LadyG]

On 16/02/2021 at 19:38, Blob Fish said:

 

aww shucks, thanks!! ? I am so looking forward to all the walking and cycling and systematically exploring all paths available near the canals! I'm of the firm belief that there's no bad weather, only bad gear, and I feel sorry for those who don't feel the same! After years of cycling I couldn't understand how most people complained of the weather, when their biggest experience with it is walking from the front door to the car, or the car into the supermarket... ?‍♀️ 

I used to cycle, and clearly remember a Sunday training run, pretty cold and wet, pretty much hypothermic, back home for cocoa and hot water bottle in my four seasons sleeping bag,  changed in to dry clothing and off to the ice rink for a spot of curling. 

Regarding use of water and it's cost, I think that's a very complex scenario, in spite of using vols to check reservoirs for weed growth, there is going to be huge costs involved, but my understanding is that water is a revenue stream (eeks), it may be used for irrigation, etc, and discharging water may also add to funds.

Edited February 17, 2021 by LadyG