LPG free standing cookers.

[June]

Hello all

Ive just scrapped the Thetford cooker that was on the boat when I first bought it- with the intention of replacing it with a free standing LPG (or LPG converted) cooker. However- Im now hearing such conflicting views, Im now worried that my choice (when I make one), wont pass the necessary boat safety. 
If someone out there has already fitted such a cooker that has  passed all boat safety requirements - I would appreciate some advise regarding ‘which cooker’ to aim for. Ive attached the advert for the cooker I quite like the look of. This will be a learning curve for me so please assume my knowledge in this area is minimal ?

Thanks to all for your help

Hotpoint HUG52K 50cm Black Double Oven LPG Gas Cooker

[haggis]

Not sure all that  the BSS says regarding cookers but I do know that it needs to have flame failure device. However, I think the glass lifting lid on the cooker you mention might be a problem as the wall above the cooker will slope inwards and that might prevent the glass being fully lifted. That might (I don't know) prevent the cooker working. The following link to the Boat Safety Scheme web site might be helpful. 

https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/requirements-examinations-certification/non-private-boat-standards/part-8-appliances,-flueing-ventilation/installation-

 

 

Haggis

Edited February 15, 2021 by haggis

[David Mack]

Anything with a hinged lid like that is likely to be impractical if located against the hull side , due to the gunwale overhang and cabin tumblehome. OK if you are going to locate it against a vertical bulkhead.

[David Mack]

A quick look online suggests it does have flame supervision, but it also needs a mains power input for the electronic programmable timer. So that means you need an inverter, and some electronic devices are sniffy about using inverter output. You will probably need a reasonably good PSW inverter.

[Alan de Enfield]

18 minutes ago, June said:

Thanks to all for your help

 

 

I think the cooker will need to be restrained by some method (chained or screwed to the side of the boat so it cannot move and 'pull' on the gas pipes).

[bizzard]

Also they need to be fixed., screwed down or chained up to a bulkhead or something so they can't fall over.  Also is your gas supply piping and regulator up to the job of powering the cooker with everything on it turned on full.

[June]

12 minutes ago, David Mack said:

A quick look online suggests it does have flame supervision, but it also needs a mains power input for the electronic programmable timer. So that means you need an inverter, and some electronic devices are sniffy about using inverter output. You will probably need a reasonably good PSW inverter.

Thanks  I have a 3.5kw inverter... which used to run my washing machine fine. 

[June]

23 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Anything with a hinged lid like that is likely to be impractical if located against the hull side , due to the gunwale overhang and cabin tumblehome. OK if you are going to locate it against a vertical bulkhead.

 

13 minutes ago, bizzard said:

Also they need to be fixed., screwed down or chained up to a bulkhead or something so they can't fall over.  Also is your gas supply piping and regulator up to the job of powering the cooker with everything on it turned on full.

Thanks- Ive had the necessary supply piping fitted by a marine fitter but really I was hoping that someone out there may have already bought a similar cooker ...maybe even Converted a regular one and gone fwd to succesfully pass their boat safety... (the conflicting views are some lpg converts are ok on a boat and some are not but these specifications are not stated on the appliance websites.)

?

The advert I posted is just one Ive been looking at- I would prefer to buy one that has been tried and tested ?

[June]

13 minutes ago, June said:

Thanks  I have a 3.5kw inverter... which used to run my washing machine fine. 

Also- yes..I understand about it being fixed/secured. And the location of the cooker in the galley isnt a concern. Its the lpg compatibility that Ive had the scary stories about. Apparently some are ok for boats and some are not. Some will pass the boat safety examination and some will not ?‍♀️. 
Thanks for the advise..much appreciated ?

45 minutes ago, haggis said:

Not sure all that  the BSS says regarding cookers but I do know that it needs to have flame failure device. However, I think the glass lifting lid on the cooker you mention might be a problem as the wall above the cooker will slope inwards and that might prevent the glass being fully lifted. That might (I don't know) prevent the cooker working. The following link to the Boat Safety Scheme web site might be helpful. 

https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/requirements-examinations-certification/non-private-boat-standards/part-8-appliances,-flueing-ventilation/installation-

 

 

Haggis

Thanks for the link- will have a look ?

[Alan de Enfield]

24 minutes ago, June said:

Thanks  I have a 3.5kw inverter... which used to run my washing machine fine. 

 

 

The question is the TYPE of inverter.

 

Some inverters are PSW (Pure Sine Wave), some are MSW (modified sine wave) and some are 'a werid middle of the road' type.

 

Electrics (like motors or lights) will often run on both PSW and MSW but electronics (such as cooker controllers) often will not run on MSW inverters.

 

You need to identify which type of inverter it is and then ask if anyone has run that specific cooker on that type of inverter.

 

It's never easy trying to use domestic appliances on a boat.

Edited February 15, 2021 by Alan de Enfield

[June]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

The question is the TYPE of inverter.

 

Some inverters are PSW (Pure Sine Wave), some are MSW (modified sine wave) and some are 'a werid middle of the road' type.

 

Electrics (like motors or lights) will often run on both PSW and MSW but electronics (such as cooker controllers) often will not run on MSW inverters.

 

You need to identify which type of inverter it is and then ask if anyone has run that specific cooker on that type of inverter.

 

It's never easy trying to use domestic appliances on a boat.

Its PSW ?

[NB Alnwick]

It would be best to avoid anything that requires electricity to work - keep it simple for those time when you fancy a hot drink while changing your battery bank or when the generator runs out of fuel . . .

[mrsmelly]

I have a Belling FS50GTCL that looks similar to the one you have linked. Very easy to change the jets to lpg. Brilliant cooker and no silly timers just a mains ignition but you could use a match or thro your inverter like I do. We just ran a chain to the bulkhead and mot tester was happy.Easy to install and great cooker.

Edited February 15, 2021 by mrsmelly

[June]

1 minute ago, NB Alnwick said:

It would be best to avoid anything that requires electricity to work - keep it simple for those time when you fancy a hot drink while changing your battery bank or when the generator runs out of fuel . . .

Yes...that is another concern isnt it. There was one cooker with battery ignition...simple- Im not really bothered about oven lights...digital displays etc but theyre so few and far between. This might sound a really stupid question- but do these cookers really need to be plugged in? Dont really need the electric gizmos?

[Tony Brooks]

As long  as you don't need to push the cooker back under the gunnel  then the glass lid is not a major problem. After all  the Caprice range of cookers sold for boat use have such a top. You will however need to screw a block of wood to the cabin side   and a swivel drop down piece to hold the lid in place.

 

If the cooker s so deep it has to ft under the gunnel than I suspect the back burners may be too close to the wooden cabin side for safety and the BSS.

 

As far as I know all the BSS requires is flame supervision on all burners.  Its not so long ago that HMOs and flats did not need such cookers but now they do domestic ones with that feature are far more readily available.

[jonathanA]

The only reason (I can think of) that a domestic cooker would fail the bss would be the lack of flame failure device. Each and every ring /grill/oven must have flame fail. It's not always easy to tell from marketing ads as it's not a requirement for domestic gas cookers.  

 

Just seen Tonys reply above about HMOs you learn something every day.

I've had a few cookers with glass covers and they cut the gas off when closed for obvious reasons. You can simply remove them in most cases.

Edited February 15, 2021 by jonathanA
ETA following tb post

[June]

9 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

I have a Belling FS50GTCL that looks similar to the one you have linked. Very easy to change the jets to lpg. Brilliant cooker and no silly timers just a mains ignition but you could use a match or thro your inverter like I do. We just ran a chain to the bulkhead and mot tester was happy.Easy to install and great cooker.

Brilliant! Thank you- just the info Im after. Will have a look. Many thanks ?

[mrsmelly]

3 minutes ago, June said:

Brilliant! Thank you- just the info Im after. Will have a look. Many thanks ?

 

[JamesWoolcock]

I recently bought a Bush AG56TW twin cavity LPG gas cooker with flame out device.

It came with a set of LPG jets which my GasSafe man changed before fitting it in the boat.

So far very happy except for the cost of an additional oven shelf. 

Happy to recommend.

[June]

14 minutes ago, jonathanA said:

The only reason (I can think of) that a domestic cooker would fail the bss would be the lack of flame failure device. Each and every ring /grill/oven must have flame fail. It's not always easy to tell from marketing ads as it's not a requirement for domestic gas cookers.  

 

Just seen Tonys reply above about HMOs you learn something every day.

I've had a few cookers with glass covers and they cut the gas off when closed for obvious reasons. You can simply remove them in most cases.

I dont really understand fully- but its something to do with how gas ‘sinks’ so if a ‘leak’ should occur it would not reach the ventilation points on a boat. LPG convertible cookers dont all meet the safety requirements on a boat.... that said... some people are saying ‘poppycock’ and others say no worries!  
If someone has fitted one already and passed all tests...that would give me more confidence when buying ?

5 minutes ago, JamesWoolcock said:

I recently bought a Bush AG56TW twin cavity LPG gas cooker with flame out device.

It came with a set of LPG jets which my GasSafe man changed before fitting it in the boat.

So far very happy except for the cost of an additional oven shelf. 

Happy to recommend.

Many thanks- thats great...will have a look ?

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, June said:

I dont really understand fully- but its something to do with how gas ‘sinks’ so if a ‘leak’ should occur it would not reach the ventilation points on a boat. LPG convertible cookers dont all meet the safety requirements on a boat.... that said... some people are saying ‘poppycock’ and others say no worries!  
If someone has fitted one already and passed all tests...that would give me more confidence when buying ?

 

Who here is saying the need for flame supervision on all burners is poppycock? It's not, it is part of the BSS. If you are getting that from social media or towpath advice then maybe you should consider how to assess the quality of that advice.

 

If a burner blows out without flame supervision the gas continues to flow, fills the bilges and boat until a suitable spark or flame ignites it. Then there is a very loud bang and whoosh as the gas explodes. With flame supervisor the flame goes out, the thermocouple in the burner cools down and cuts the gas off.

 

The vents the BSS requires are not mandatory on a private boat so there is no guarantee the gas can leak out of the boat, even if there is ventilation the low level vents are too high, the gas would pool below them and explode.

 

The fact a cooker can be converted for LPG does not mean its suitable for use in a boat. Many houses in the  country cook on LPG and those do not need flame supervision but you do on a boat.

 

 

[June]

2 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Who here is saying the need for flame supervision on all burners is poppycock? It's not, it is part of the BSS. If you are getting that from social media or towpath advice then maybe you should consider how to assess the quality of that advice.

 

If a burner blows out without flame supervision the gas continues to flow, fills the bilges and boat until a suitable spark or flame ignites it. Then there is a very loud bang and whoosh as the gas explodes. With flame supervisor the flame goes out, the thermocouple in the burner cools down and cuts the gas off.

 

The vents the BSS requires are not mandatory on a private boat so there is no guarantee the gas can leak out of the boat, even if there is ventilation the low level vents are too high, the gas would pool below them and explode.

 

The fact a cooker can be converted for LPG does not mean its suitable for use in a boat. Many houses in the  country cook on LPG and those do not need flame supervision but you do on a boat.

 

 

You misunderstood me- no one on here- Im talking of conversations Ive had with people. That is why Ive asked on here for help

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, June said:

You misunderstood me- no one on here- Im talking of conversations Ive had with people. That is why Ive asked on here for help

 

Fair enough. Now you know where to come for more definitive advice. We have a number of professionals here and many very experienced boaters highly qualified in other disciplines. You do have to watch for individuals who post advice in total good faith but based on a single incident.

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Who here is saying the need for flame supervision on all burners is poppycock? It's not, it is part of the BSS. If you are getting that from 

 

The vents the BSS requires are not mandatory on a private boat so there 

 

The fact a cooker can be converted for LPG does not mean its suitable for use in a boat. Many houses in the  country cook on LPG and those do not need flame supervision but you do on a boat.

 

 

 

Something I have never understood. In a house there is still the potential for a disaster. We had a new Neff gas hob fitted 3 years ago and I was surprised to find even relatively expensive modern gas appliances dont have this safety feature. 

 

Ignore all that. A classic case of RTFM. Just checked.

 

We've always just let the knob go as soon as the ring lights, however the manual says to hold the knob down for 4-5 seconds after lighting in order to ensure the FFD is activated correctly and will cut off the gas if the flame fails for any reason.

 

Lesson learned.

Edited February 15, 2021 by The Happy Nomad

[David Mack]

4 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

Something I have never understood. In a house there is still the potential for a disaster. 

Yes, but much less potential for disaster than on a boat - more chance of low level vents to disperse the gas, bigger spaces meaning more dilution etc.

 

That said, given that FSDs are required on all burners in HMOs, and many manufacturers are fitting them to meet this need, I can't see why all cookers don't come with them now.