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C&RT say don't empty your compost toilet in our bins.


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3 hours ago, IanD said:

And if that happens, you can bet that CaRT will have no choice but to ban composting toilets completely, like they did with sea/freshwater ones. Wrong type of toilet, no license.

 

Which means the people who have them using them properly (composting!) will be royally piss*d off. But they shouldn't blame CaRT, they should blame the 75% of non-composting bag-dumpers...

 

If it's still allowed, they should use it properly as a composting toilet, as was always the intention.

 

If it's not, they should blame the 75% for forcing CaRT to change the rules so they have to buy a new toilet...

I haven't put kitty litter in to the elsan, it's only recently kitty decided he's an indoors type. 

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4 hours ago, doratheexplorer said:

Well that's not nice, I agree.  It doesn't change my point though.  This rule change will do nothing to address this sort of anti-social behaviour.  But it will punish all those who have shelled out hundreds in good faith.

 

True but CaRT created the guidelines based on the information they had at the time. Now in light of new information, pointing out the legal obligations for the waste carrier, they are quite rightly entitled to change the guidelines. It's tough on those who have fitted composting toilets with no means to truly compost the waste, but what else could CaRT do? If they provided 'not yet composted poo bins' how many who require the service would pay and how many would continue to double bag and bin it in general waste.

 

Not a good situation for boaters with compost toilets or CaRT or Biffa or the rest of us.

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36 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I haven't put kitty litter in to the elsan, it's only recently kitty decided he's an indoors type. 

If your cat litter is anything like the cat litter we used to get when we had a cat I don't think it is advisable to put it in an elsan disposal point.   When wet it formed a solid impenetrable lump.   I suspect it would present problems for others trying to use the facility.

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1 minute ago, Jerra said:

If your cat litter is anything like the cat litter we used to get when we had a cat I don't think it is advisable to put it in an elsan disposal point.   When wet it formed a solid impenetrable lump.   I suspect it would present problems for others trying to use the facility.

As she has sole use of the elsan at her mooring then it will prove that possible use very soon. 

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16 minutes ago, Jerra said:

If your cat litter is anything like the cat litter we used to get when we had a cat I don't think it is advisable to put it in an elsan disposal point.   When wet it formed a solid impenetrable lump.   I suspect it would present problems for others trying to use the facility.

No, its just small white chips, non clumping, pours out the same way it pours in to the litter tray, just starts to smell after a bit.  I have only changed it once, and  I think I put it in the waste bin, in a black bag, mixed with Ash from s/f stove, ir is pretty much inert. 

38 minutes ago, Midnight said:

 

True but CaRT created the guidelines based on the information they had at the time. Now in light of new information, pointing out the legal obligations for the waste carrier, they are quite rightly entitled to change the guidelines. It's tough on those who have fitted composting toilets with no means to truly compost the waste, but what else could CaRT do? If they provided 'not yet composted poo bins' how many who require the service would pay and how many would continue to double bag and bin it in general waste.

 

Not a good situation for boaters with compost toilets or CaRT or Biffa or the rest of us.

I think there must be a very large number of numpties at the CRT if none of them knew about hazardous waste regulations or read their contract with Biffa.

 

Edit. I worked in a Local Autbority, in the Environmental Department, ambitious staff  knew that the only way to get promotion was to ignore problems. Pro active was a very negative characteristic.

This may be the reason for CRT problems, they got rid of people who knew what they were doing in favour of nodding donkeys. Itmatters little in the long term, there won't be a long term. 

Edited by LadyG
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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

There is always the 4th option

 

The incinerator toilet but horrendously expensive in either gas or electric.

 

LeeSan Marine Sanitation - Cinderella Incinerator Toilets

 

Uses 150Ah (out of 12v batteries via an inverter) per 'flush' Cost £3900

 

Uses 110g of propane per 'flush' = 118 flushes per 13kg gas cylinder Cost £4100

And therefore horrendously non-green, if anyone cares about that...

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20 minutes ago, LadyG said:

No, its just small white chips, non clumping, pours out the same way it pours in to the litter tray, just starts to smell after a bit.  I have only changed it once, and  I think I put it in the waste bin, in a black bag, mixed with Ash from s/f stove, ir is pretty much inert. 

I think there must be a very large number of numpties at the CRT if none of them knew about hazardous waste regulations or read their contract with Biffa.

 

Edit. I worked in a Local Autbority, in the Environmental Department, ambitious staff  knew that the only way to get promotion was to ignore problems. Pro active was a very negative characteristic.

This may be the reason for CRT problems, they got rid of people who knew what they were doing in favour of nodding donkeys. Itmatters little in the long term, there won't be a long term. 

I suspect that so long as there were only a few pioneering composting toileteers -- and probably ones who used them properly -- CaRT were quite happy to stay with their previous advice.

 

Once the numbers shot up and the majority of them don't use them properly the picture changes, so CaRT have to change their policy.

 

There seems to be a bit of a theme going on here to put blame on CaRT instead of where it belongs with the bag-and-chuck toilet users...

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problem is, not one of the youtubers advocating separating toilets takes their waste to compost. they all bang on about how much better than pumpout or cassette they are, call them compost toilets, and then bag and bin it all.

joe newboater-public, who has gained all their knowledge from vloggers, sees that and follows that example.

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7 minutes ago, Hudds Lad said:

problem is, not one of the youtubers advocating separating toilets takes their waste to compost. they all bang on about how much better than pumpout or cassette they are, call them compost toilets, and then bag and bin it all.

joe newboater-public, who has gained all their knowledge from vloggers, sees that and follows that example.

Chap called last week, bought a boat from W$@^#&n, surveyor recommended new batteries. He asked if we had lithium ones as hes seen people vlogging about how good they are. 

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1 hour ago, LadyG said:

 

I think there must be a very large number of numpties at the CRT ....

"You may think that, I couldn't possibly comment"

Edited by Midnight
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2 hours ago, Hudds Lad said:

problem is, not one of the youtubers advocating separating toilets takes their waste to compost. they all bang on about how much better than pumpout or cassette they are, call them compost toilets, and then bag and bin it all.

joe newboater-public, who has gained all their knowledge from vloggers, sees that and follows that example.

Well if they've all spent a grand or so on a composting toilet and are using it like that, it looks like they're about to get an unpleasant and probably expensive surprise...

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After a weekend's worth of comments I wonder if C&RT have actually stated this is a new policy and that Damien  (working from home) had perhaps unwittingly broken an embargo on that change of policy before its actual announcement? It might also be a bit of kite-flying to gauge response which is probably presupposing an unprecedented (isn't everything) level of sophistication but certainly demonstrated how divided and easily conquered the contributors to this discussion here were.

 

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49 minutes ago, MartinW said:

After a weekend's worth of comments I wonder if C&RT have actually stated this is a new policy and that Damien  (working from home) had perhaps unwittingly broken an embargo on that change of policy before its actual announcement? It might also be a bit of kite-flying to gauge response which is probably presupposing an unprecedented (isn't everything) level of sophistication but certainly demonstrated how divided and easily conquered the contributors to this discussion here were.

 

Sorry, but could you clarify, the exact meaning of the sentence after 'but'?

Apart from one well known outlier, advocate of weird methods of propulsion and fat boats there is, to my mind, no division of thinking,  I got the impression most contributers are anti the disposal of shit to Biffa instead of sewage to elsan. Most contributers have an elsan based system. 

Kite flying is possible but unlikely, imho, more likely is a bit of a communications cock up. The CRT are getting better at spelling and grammar, but joined up thinking is still in it's infancy. 

Edited by LadyG
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I was speaking as an oft comed'un (Yorkshire version of outlier) based on observing 7 or 8 pages of discussion. My boat has a Thetford but I was considering the dry-solids alternative, not because of any squeamishness on my part but rather the enhanced flexibility of disposal. I had no idea that there was so much controversy about that process. I have some experience of the problems caused to customers by poorly negotiated local authority waste-disposal contracts and also as a Park-conservation volunteer, the issue of dog-waste. If this pandemic has taught me anything it is that the constant pursuit of confrontation in support of a polarised viewpoint is a form of mutually assured destruction. The only people that  benefit are those who seek to profit from division and the victims are kindness and mutual respect. 

I am, like you a proponent of the cock-up theory of just about everything.

 

 

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2 hours ago, MartinW said:

I was speaking as an oft comed'un (Yorkshire version of outlier) based on observing 7 or 8 pages of discussion. My boat has a Thetford but I was considering the dry-solids alternative, not because of any squeamishness on my part but rather the enhanced flexibility of disposal. I had no idea that there was so much controversy about that process. I have some experience of the problems caused to customers by poorly negotiated local authority waste-disposal contracts and also as a Park-conservation volunteer, the issue of dog-waste. If this pandemic has taught me anything it is that the constant pursuit of confrontation in support of a polarised viewpoint is a form of mutually assured destruction. The only people that  benefit are those who seek to profit from division and the victims are kindness and mutual respect. 

I am, like you a proponent of the cock-up theory of just about everything.

 

 

That's the best Civil Serviersh, I've seen for a long time.

Were you a script writer for "Yes Minister"?

 

Bod

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7 hours ago, LadyG said:

Sorry, but could you clarify, the exact meaning of the sentence after 'but'?

Apart from one well known outlier, advocate of weird methods of propulsion and fat boats there is, to my mind, no division of thinking,  I got the impression most contributers are anti the disposal of shit to Biffa instead of sewage to elsan. Most contributers have an elsan based system. 

Kite flying is possible but unlikely, imho, more likely is a bit of a communications cock up. The CRT are getting better at spelling and grammar, but joined up thinking is still in it's infancy. 

I'm on the fence about whether the disposal methods of 'dry toileters' is ok or not.  I've had to deal with some disgustingly unhygenic elsans.  Is bagging semi composted and dessicated poo by bagging and binning any worse?  I don't know, and I'm not sure anyone else on here does either. 

 

The way CRT have dealt with this is utterly typical of their incompetence.  If there has indeed been a change of policy then the following should have happened as a minimum.

 

1.  A proper announcement, stating the changes and acknowledging the problems these changes will create for some.

2.  The removal of all contrary information from their website.

3.  A specific date beyond which the current disposal method will not be allowed.

 

I still think the sensible thing to do would be to provide hot composting disposal alongside the bins.  If over, time composting toilets on inland boats became the norm, they could decommision the elsans which would actually save them money.  I doubt they've even looked into that though.

Edited by doratheexplorer
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6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Fully composted which has been sterilised by the heat generated in the composting process would surely to be fine, bagged and put in the bins, it is the "semi composed" (or even worse "as produced" faeces) which is not particularly welcome in the bins.

 

You go into some disgusting elsans by choice (you could even not go in and choose to use another one), however, bin-bag-sorters do not get the option to keep away from semi-composted, or sloppy faeces as the bags burst.

Couple of things:  when my cassettes are full and the next elsan (which may be disgusting also), is more than a day's cruise away, exactly what choice do I have?  Tip it in the cut?

I don't have a composting loo, but the description coming from those who do, is that the product is the complete opposite of sloppy. 

I think you're being disingenuous here. 

Bags of dog poo may well be 'sloppy'.  The arisings from a composting loo just aren't. 

And what about the choices available to those who have to clean the elsans when they're left disgusting?

When the bins are loaded into the bin lorry the contents are compressed by rams with '000s of pounds of pressure, if there is a stick, or a sharp bit of metal etc then the poop bags will burst and all the surrounding waste will become contaminated.

 

To me. the answer is simple, if you do not have the correct facilities to properly compost then you shouldn't be using a composting toilet.

 

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1 minute ago, doratheexplorer said:

I don't have a composting loo, but the description coming from those who do, is that the product is the complete opposite of sloppy. 

I think you're being disingenuous here. 

 

I agree that properly used and composted the contents are dry crumbly mulch.

 

However, 'stuff' that is not composted and tipped in to a plastic bag will not have gone thru the composting process and will (probably) have 'sweated' and will be whatever consistency it was when deposited.

 

Could it be that the faux-composters are simply using a bin bag instead of a cassette as it saves them going into a smelly elsan station, they simply throw the contents and the carrying system, into the bin.

 

6 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Couple of things:  when my cassettes are full and the next elsan (which may be disgusting also), is more than a day's cruise away, exactly what choice do I have?  Tip it in the cut?

 

Do you always wait until your cassettes are full before planning to empty them. Planning ahead can avoid a lot of problems. What if you broke down and were stuck for a couple of days with all your cassettes full.

 

 

9 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

And what about the choices available to those who have to clean the elsans when they're left disgusting?

 

Agreed, they shouldn't have to clean up that sort of stuff, but, at the end of the day (assuming you mean paid cleaners) they are paid to clean up the elsan stations.

It is very unfortunate that some boaters seem not to worry about the mess they make, possibly thinking "by the time I come this way again It'll be cleaned up".

 

Do you remember the pictures posted by 'are we there yet' where he followed a 'self-pump out' boater into the elsan ?

The pipe had jumped out of the bowl and as he was on the boat starting the pump-out wasn't aware that there was a 'shower of sh$t' going on with the walls, ceiling and floor being sprayed. (He had just walked away) Another example of people using the wrong equipment.

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3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I agree that properly used and composted the contents are dry crumbly mulch.

 

However, 'stuff' that is not composted and tipped in to a plastic bag will not have gone thru the composting process and will (probably) have 'sweated' and will be whatever consistency it was when deposited.

 

Could it be that the faux-composters are simply using a bin bag instead of a cassette as it saves them going into a smelly elsan station, they simply throw the contents and the carrying system, into the bin. A lot of assuming going on there.

 

 

Do you always wait until your cassettes are full before planning to empty them. Planning ahead can avoid a lot of problems. What if you broke down and were stuck for a couple of days with all your cassettes full. No but it happens.  You avoided my question.

 

 

 

Agreed, they shouldn't have to clean up that sort of stuff, but, at the end of the day (assuming you mean paid cleaners) they are paid to clean up the elsan stations.In what way is this relevant?  Are the biffa people all volunteers?

It is very unfortunate that some boaters seem not to worry about the mess they make, possibly thinking "by the time I come this way again It'll be cleaned up".

 

Do you remember the pictures posted by 'are we there yet' where he followed a 'self-pump out' boater into the elsan ?

The pipe had jumped out of the bowl and as he was on the boat starting the pump-out wasn't aware that there was a 'shower of sh$t' going on with the walls, ceiling and floor being sprayed. (He had just walked away) Another example of people using the wrong equipment. So it's quite clear that elsans can be extremely unhygenic.

 

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8 hours ago, MartinW said:

After a weekend's worth of comments I wonder if C&RT have actually stated this is a new policy and that Damien  (working from home) had perhaps unwittingly broken an embargo on that change of policy before its actual announcement? It might also be a bit of kite-flying to gauge response which is probably presupposing an unprecedented (isn't everything) level of sophistication but certainly demonstrated how divided and easily conquered the contributors to this discussion here were.

 

No they have not actually stated anything. Using 'should not' instead of 'must not' in one sentence is not policy.

The discussion is now dominated here by peeps who dont like the idea of desiccated poo in CRT bins. Anyone who supports the idea is avoiding comment for fear of mass criticism. The inputs are therefore almost 100% against. The thread is now building strength based on cr&p assumptions and by peeps who dont understand the issue. An example is Alan who refers to smelly liquid waste being put in bins. No we are not doing a nappy disposal where smelly liquid human waste is put in bins. This is solids. Very solid. Like horse manure but not smelly. 99% of peeps here have never seen a picking line so do not know the hazards of waste segregation. Nappies and adult incontinence pads are dealt with very efficiently by leaving them on the belt. Its the stuff that contaminates all the other waste that goes to recycle that is the problem, like leaking nappies....and this is from my first hand knowledge on plastic recycling (I have part ownership of a plastic recycling company). Even more issue is food waste. It festers for 3 weeks and then spreads over everything. If peeps are really interested in recycling and assisting the picking line then we need dedicated food waste bags on the cut. What is the fate of chicken trays – the trays you buy in a supermarket. Covered in E-coli. Spread out in black bags. Go and have a look at a picking line. It may sway your views. There are bigger problems than desiccated poo in black bags.

We then get to what has actually been said. The CRT have not banned these toilets and I will take Ian D's bet that they are banned any time soon. This is only a statement by Damien that is a 'should' not a 'must'. A few pages back, someone commented on the restriction of fat boats on the north Oxford being a similar problem – ie the CRT have turned a blind eye on it for years, neither supporting it or being against it..ie totally silent. Now they have said they allow it with restrictions. This is the 'contract law' stuff I was talking about pages back. I guess their lawyer say you cant ban fat boats as you have allowed it for years. I agree now, this is actually similar despite my original denial, but in this case the CRT actively encouraged the activity by putting in writing what to do. Once again, it is pointless arguing this as we need a contract lawyer, but my reading is that they do have an obligation. Ian's view is different. No point in arguing.

The other thing that is being misrepresented is the illegality of putting it in a black bin. Alan keeps banging on that it is illegal due to waste transfer regulations. Once again we are clutching at straws. It is not clear. According to the words, and individual can put the solids +liquids!!!!! in a black bag as long as it is less than 7Kgs and only once in the 'cycle'. Think though about what this means. It has to be aimed at nappies put in a black bag then put in the wheelie bin. 7Kgs??? Sounds like nappies disposed of at 1kg per day for 7 days. No mention of 'dumpsters'. No one here knows the rules being applied to dumpsters. One bag of solid poo per week is far better than a weeks worth of stinking nappies for transport. Most of the comments on here are assuming what Biffa and CRT are thinking. Those assumptions are not fact and may be far from the truth.

Anywho, I will continue to compost my waste and so this issue is not a problem for me but it is a concern for many. This problem will rumble on for years.

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