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C&RT say don't empty your compost toilet in our bins.


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34 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

 

So there's no point anybody doing anything, because the whole world is going to hell in a handbasket... 😞

Sadly, a common view. 

 

As is telling other people what they should care about, it seems.

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49 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Sadly, a common view. 

 

As is telling other people what they should care about, it seems.

You're perfectly free to care about what you want to, or not, regardless of what I say.

 

If you tell me I shouldn't care about something, I'll do exactly the same... 😉

 

But blaming CaRT for all this or throwing our collective hands in the air and saying "nothing can be done, the poo-baggers have prevailed" doesn't help anybody.

 

When there's no obvious solution to a problem and some lateral thinking is needed, the answer sometimes appears from an unexpected place (for example, this forum) when the people whose immediate problem is is (for example, CaRT) are unable to find one.

 

So get your thinking caps on... 😉

 

[or go "Yeah, whatever..." -- it's your choice]

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3 minutes ago, IanD said:

You're perfectly free to care about what you want to, or not, regardless of what I say.

 

If you tell me I shouldn't care about something, I'll do exactly the same... 😉

 

But blaming CaRT for all this or throwing our collective hands in the air and saying "nothing can be done, the poo-baggers have prevailed" doesn't help anybody.

 

When there's no obvious solution to a problem and some lateral thinking is needed, the answer sometimes appears from an unexpected place (for example, this forum) when the people whose immediate problem is is (for example, CaRT) are unable to find one.

 

So get your thinking caps on... 😉

 

[or go "Yeah, whatever..." -- it's your choice]

I laid out a solution some pages back, you dismissed it with your usual supposition.  I stand by it.  Time will tell.

 

Other solutions have been raised and also dismissed on here because they don't suit the narrative of the mob, not because they have no merit.

 

When you call for a solution, what you really mean is, "how do I get my way?"

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1 hour ago, doratheexplorer said:

I laid out a solution some pages back, you dismissed it with your usual supposition.  I stand by it.  Time will tell.

 

Other solutions have been raised and also dismissed on here because they don't suit the narrative of the mob, not because they have no merit.

 

When you call for a solution, what you really mean is, "how do I get my way?"

No, I mean how do we get a solution to the problem that actually works in real life as opposed to on paper (or screen) or in somebody's imagination.

 

I don't care who comes up with it. I'm not "shouting down" anybody, but this is a discussion forum, and if somebody proposes something that is impractical then I'll point out why I think it won't work -- which IIRC was my reaction to your proposal. If you don't agree with my reasons for why I don't think it will work, come back with reasons why you think it will. Maybe I'll agree with you, maybe not. Remind me again what your proposal was?

 

 You can do just the same to anything I suggest, this isn't a dictatorship 😉

 

AFAIK we haven't got a solution yet that will actually work given economics, regulations, CaRT's legal position, and the vagaries of human nature in general and bag'n'binners in particular -- which is exactly what I'm encouraging people to come up with. But it has to be workable in the real world, not a fantasy one where everyone behaves nicely and altruistically...

 

P.S. If by "the mob" you mean "the vast majority of boaters who don't think sh*t-in-a-bag is an appropriate poo disposal method" -- then yes, "the mob" doesn't seem to approve of boaters who think they should be allowed to continue bag'n'binning. Just like "the mob" doesn't approve of fly-tipping, or leaving doggie bags hanging on trees for the poo fairy. The similarities should be obvious...

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36 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

I laid out a solution some pages back, you dismissed it with your usual supposition.  I stand by it.  Time will tell.

 

Other solutions have been raised and also dismissed on here because they don't suit the narrative of the mob, not because they have no merit.

 

When you call for a solution, what you really mean is, "how do I get my way?"

Solutions of most solids are usually the way ............

 

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Solution.

Make toilet type a BSSC item.  Which the BSSC scheme is there to protect the public from coming to harm from your boat.

Non flushable toilets get a BSSC fail. (Unless you can show, on your home mooring or home address, effective treatment for both liquid and solid waste.)

To take some of the sting out of this, maybe C&RT could offer a discount on a new cassette system.

Would take 4-5 years to accomplish.

 

Bod.

 

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1 minute ago, Bod said:

Would take 4-5 years to accomplish.

 

It could be implemented immediately - having ANY non compliant system on board invalidates your BSSC, so in effect your licence is then invalidated and C&RT can remove your boat from their waters as it is unlicenced.

 

From the BSS T&Cs

 

The owner’s on-going responsibility: it is crucial to maintain the vessel in good condition in accordance with the safety requirements; and, any other licensing, registration or mooring conditions of the relevant navigation or harbour authority. The validity of a BSS pass result may be affected and can be cancelled if the vessel is not properly maintained; and/or non-compliant alterations are made....

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7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

It could be implemented immediately - having ANY non compliant system on board invalidates your BSSC, so in effect your licence is then invalidated and C&RT can remove your boat from their waters as it is unlicenced.

 

From the BSS T&Cs

 

The owner’s on-going responsibility: it is crucial to maintain the vessel in good condition in accordance with the safety requirements; and, any other licensing, registration or mooring conditions of the relevant navigation or harbour authority. The validity of a BSS pass result may be affected and can be cancelled if the vessel is not properly maintained; and/or non-compliant alterations are made....

Exactly what I suggested, but was then told that CaRT couldn't legally do this -- I'm sure somebody will be along shortly to explain why...

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4 hours ago, IanD said:

Oh dear Alan, haven't you come up with a legal way for CaRT to do this yet? I'm so disappointed, given your in-depth knowledge of the ins and outs of UK inland waterway laws, if anyone could do it I'd have thought it would be you 😉

I thought we had agreed that it was not so much finding a way that legal as more about the economics.

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13 minutes ago, Bod said:

Solution.

Make toilet type a BSSC item.  Which the BSSC scheme is there to protect the public from coming to harm from your boat.

Non flushable toilets get a BSSC fail. (Unless you can show, on your home mooring or home address, effective treatment for both liquid and solid waste.)

To take some of the sting out of this, maybe C&RT could offer a discount on a new cassette system.

Would take 4-5 years to accomplish.

 

Bod.

 

Why should CaRT pay out to subsidise people who decided to install and use composting toilets wrongly? (yes I know what the CaRT advice was; just after "should be composted" it said...)

 

Why should it take 4-5 years?

1 minute ago, Mike Todd said:

I thought we had agreed that it was not so much finding a way that legal as more about the economics.

Nope, kept getting told that CaRT couldn't legally ban them.

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Just now, IanD said:

Exactly what I suggested, but was then told that CaRT couldn't legally do this -- I'm sure somebody will be along shortly to explain why...

 

Personally I don't see it to be within the remit of the BSS. (boat safety scheme) which has been expanded a little to include 'pollution' of the waterways.

 

The problem I see is that composting toilets do not pollute the waterways, they potentially 'pollute' the waste bins. The BSS does not have authority to determine bin contents.

 

Although DrBob disagrees, to me, the only legislation covering 'crap in bags in bins' is the transfer of waste regulations which regulates what can be put in the bins.

 'Poop' is classed as offensive waste and is limited to one (special tiger striped) bag weighing no more than 7kgs per bin per emptying cycle.

 

We are back into the 'circular argument' again that whilst C&RT are responsible for what goes in the bins, they cannot control it, or enforce any 'guidance' not to use the bins for poop-bags, they are then in default of the their 'Duty of Care' and would be liable for fines escalating up to £250,000.

How do they stop it ?

 

I know not. 

9 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

I thought we had agreed that it was not so much finding a way that legal as more about the economics.

 

No, DrBob says it is a commercial decision.

 

I maintain that there is legislation and have quoted 'chapter & verse' and cut and pasted large swathes proving the point.

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New Boaters update

 

Composting/separator toilets – your questions answered

In the last edition we featured an article about composting toilets (which are perhaps more accurately called separator toilets as the composting doesn’t take place in situ). A few of you wrote in with some questions. Below you’ll find the answer to those asked most frequently:

Why has your advice about the disposal of solid waste from composting/separator toilets changed?

We believe that there is a regulatory problem with the approach that we had which meant we had to change our guidance for boaters to disposing of solid waste at an appropriate composting site away from the canal rather than bagged up in our canal-side bins. We appreciate that, in the short term, the advice isn’t ideal for those with a composting/separator toilet, but we do need to ensure that our guidance complies with waste disposal regulations.

Does this mean used nappies cannot be disposed of in your bins?

No. Used nappies can still be placed along with other household waste just in the same way that land-based parents and carers would.

If I can’t dispose of solid waste at a canal-side facility where should I put it?

If you don’t have the space to store and let the composting process happen (around 12 months), your waste should be disposed of at a suitable composting site away from the canal. Putting partly-composted waste down an Elsan leads to blockages (as this waste is very dry) which are expensive to fix. Liquid from these toilets can still be disposed of in Elsans

Will this new guidance be in force forever?

We are continuing to investigate the issue. At this point we don’t know if we will be able to identify a change that will allow an alternative disposal approach but want to try and work to find a better solution for those with composting/separator toilets.

If you have any further questions, or an idea for a sustainable solution, please do drop me a line.

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2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Personally I don't see it to be within the remit of the BSS. (boat safety scheme) which has been expanded a little to include 'pollution' of the waterways.

 

The problem I see is that composting toilets do not pollute the waterways, they potentially 'pollute' the waste bins. The BSS does not have authority to determine bin contents.

 

N.B.   I am not suggesting this would/will happen merely putting forward a point for discussion.

 

If enough of the current bin-n-baggers start to avoid bins and dump "stuff" on the towpath, under hedges etc then there could be a pollution of the waterways risk.

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43 minutes ago, Jerra said:

N.B.   I am not suggesting this would/will happen merely putting forward a point for discussion.

 

If enough of the current bin-n-baggers start to avoid bins and dump "stuff" on the towpath, under hedges etc then there could be a pollution of the waterways risk.

So as I've asked before -- what stops rogue boaters just emptying their pumpout tanks into the bins, or onto the towpath, or under hedges?

 

Whatever stops them doing it, surely it should be possible for CaRT to use the same law/rule to stop poo-binners?

 

Or is nothing stopping them except public opinion?

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41 minutes ago, IanD said:

So as I've asked before -- what stops rogue boaters just emptying their pumpout tanks into the bins, or onto the towpath, or under hedges?

It doesn't going by the fact that in this thread somebody reported seeing a cassette being emptied into the canal.

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1 hour ago, IanD said:

So as I've asked before -- what stops rogue boaters just emptying their pumpout tanks into the bins, or onto the towpath, or under hedges?

 

Whatever stops them doing it, surely it should be possible for CaRT to use the same law/rule to stop poo-binners?

 

Or is nothing stopping them except public opinion?

Nothing is stopping them, reporting them might, only might get something done.

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16 hours ago, Jerra said:

N.B.   I am not suggesting this would/will happen merely putting forward a point for discussion.

 

If enough of the current bin-n-baggers start to avoid bins and dump "stuff" on the towpath, under hedges etc then there could be a pollution of the waterways risk.

 

15 hours ago, IanD said:

So as I've asked before -- what stops rogue boaters just emptying their pumpout tanks into the bins, or onto the towpath, or under hedges?

 

Whatever stops them doing it, surely it should be possible for CaRT to use the same law/rule to stop poo-binners?

 

Or is nothing stopping them except public opinion?

 

That would be fly tipping, for which fines are unlimited, if tried in a Crown Court.

 

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn05672/

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44 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

 

That would be fly tipping, for which fines are unlimited, if tried in a Crown Court.

 

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn05672/

Mandatory DNA testing* if you want to fit a bag and bin toilet 😱

 

 

 

*To allow tracing of the deposits owner.

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21 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Although DrBob disagrees, to me, the only legislation covering 'crap in bags in bins' is the transfer of waste regulations which regulates what can be put in the bins.

 'Poop' is classed as offensive waste and is limited to one (special tiger striped) bag weighing no more than 7kgs per bin per emptying cycle.

 

Well Alan, once again you are talking a load of cr&p.

When will you listen -that the transport of this waste is not illegal. I am surprised at you as you say are managing a site which disposes of rubbish.

You know as well as I do that when a dumpster of rubbish is picked up by your waste handler that a transfer note is raised and on that note, the content of the bin is entered by transfer codes including the amount in the bin of each code. That then is signed by you and the waste handler and off it goes. All legal and above board. The only illegal thing that can happen is either you or the waste handler writes down the wrong code. The codes that you are disposing of will be in your agreement with the handler. This solid waste we are discussing is classed as Municipal Offensive Waste – Non hazardous and uses the code 20-01-99. It is the same code as babies nappies and dog poo. It is also the same code used for 'other fractions not specified'.

Now, I dont have a clue what proportion of 20-01-99 you have agreed in advance with Biffa but you will have a % number – maybe 0%? As long as you do not exceed that number then transport will not be illegal.

Now lets ignore your waste and look at CRT.

CRT will sign off on each dumpster with the correct codes and amounts. As they allow nappies – and dont specify how much, they will have to put 20-01-99 in as a code and as anyone could put any municipal waste in, they must allow a reasonable amount for 20-01-99. That waste gets picked up and shipped, and it is then legal. The solid waste from a composting toilet is classed under code 20-01-99.

On page 18, about a 1/3rd of the way down, I showed how much waste a weeks worth of nappies would weigh. About the same as a couple with one of these toilets. THEREFORE, as the crt allows the disposal of nappies in their bins, the amount of code 20-01-99 will be set quite high and is likely to be much higher than ever seen as 20-01-99 is a catch all and has to be set high in case peeps put a lot of 'other fractions not specified'. If the crt dont set the amount of 20-01-99 high, then they are in serious risk of breaking the law every time a dumpster is shipped. Shipping this solid waste is therefore not illegal.

If anyone is interested to look at waste codes than look at:

https://www.veolia.co.uk/sites/g/files/dvc1681/files/document/2014/11/How_to_classify_your_waste.pdf

 

 

 

18 hours ago, rasputin said:

Why has your advice about the disposal of solid waste from composting/separator toilets changed?

We believe that there is a regulatory problem with the approach that we had which meant we had to change our guidance for boaters to disposing of solid waste at an appropriate composting site away from the canal rather than bagged up in our canal-side bins.

 

Let's then look at what the CRT are saying....see quote from Mr Putin. "We believe that there is a regulatory problem"!!!!! WTF!!!!!! Dont they know? Why not? The waste transfer regulations are very straightforward. Agree and declare how much 20-01-99 you are putting in the bin and dont forget that is anything that doesnt fall under the 20 odd categories stated on the codes list. They have to make the 20-01-99 high enough to cover say 10 bags of nappies (10 boats worth) in case there is a run of them. What about dog poo? How many of you throw dog poo in the bin? Seriously? You do Alan....I am told. It is total B*ll*cks to say 'we belive'. It is not a regulatory problem if you sign the waste transfer form correctly.

THE PROBLEM IS THAT BIFFA DONT WANT THAT PART OF 20-01-99 THAT BUGGERS UP THEIR INCINERATORS. It is nothing to do with waste transfer regulations.

 

...and please do not come back and say its not about nappies, or there arent many nappies thrown in crt bins. CRT clearly state they can be disposed of in this way and they are designated by the UK Goverment under the same waste transfer code.

 

Bottom line is that CRT and Biffa are in an argument about what they want to handle. It is a commercial discussion and not a regulatory issue.

 

5,000tes of human shit and piss (sorry for the language but with the Mob braying at my heels I dont care) are thrown into bins every week - and virtually no solid waste from these toilets are put in crt bins - as more boats than not are in marinas. Add to that the amount of dog crap you all throw in bins. Whilst composting is the way to go (and that is what I am doing) the disposal in crt bins is not the disgusting practice that the mob here would lead everyone to believe. If it is such a sin, how do we resolve the 5,000te per year problem?

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