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C&RT say don't empty your compost toilet in our bins.


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1 minute ago, Dyertribe said:

In your opinion,

As a hire boater will the advent of human faecal matter appearing on or near the towpath not impact on my holiday?

 

 

Of course its my opinion, do we now have to append each and every post we make with IMHO?

 

On your second point. Unlikely I would say, oh and only in my opinion of course, just in case thats not 100% clear.

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13 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

Surely it is both? The regulations set the framework of what Biffa can do and, to some extent, what users of the bins can do - CaRT's role vis a vis the Regulation needs clarification - are they just Biffa customers rather than waste disposers - or does that role come into play as soon as they ask Biffa to empty them? All waste can be disposed of - there is no problem with allowing boaters to continue disposing of loo waste in the bins if Biffa offer such a service. No doubt they would (certainly could but as a commercial operation may decide not to do so) but at a prohibitive price. so also commercial. 

Very likely it's both, but the only reason it matters is people who are affected want to know why CaRT is making this change to their rules, presumably so they can argue about whether it's justified or not.

 

I don't think this will get them anywhere, it's clear that CaRT think poo-binning has to stop, they just need to find a way to make it really stop not just on paper. It might help with CaRT customer relations if they explained the reasons behind this decision, or it might just open them up for protracted arguments from disgruntled poo-binners.

 

The inescapable fact is that they own the bins and they get to decide who can use them and for what purpose, or indeed if there are any bins at all -- "there is no statutory duty on the Trust to provide customer service facilities".

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15 minutes ago, IanD said:

"there is no statutory duty on the Trust to provide customer service facilities".

 

 

In fact, there is ample evidence that C&RT would be well within their rights to charge for the 'service' of providing bins (and elsan facilities) in addition to the licence fee.

 

Section 43(3) of the Transport Act 1962 ("the 1962 Act") provides "... the [British Waterways Board and the Strategic Rail Authority] shall have power to demand, take and recover [or waive] such charges for their services and facilities, and to make the use of those services and facilities subject to such terms and conditions, as they think fit."

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40 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

Surely it is both? The regulations set the framework of what Biffa can do and, to some extent, what users of the bins can do - CaRT's role vis a vis the Regulation needs clarification - are they just Biffa customers rather than waste disposers - or does that role come into play as soon as they ask Biffa to empty them? All waste can be disposed of - there is no problem with allowing boaters to continue disposing of loo waste in the bins if Biffa offer such a service. No doubt they would (certainly could but as a commercial operation may decide not to do so) but at a prohibitive price. so also commercial. 

Of course you can argue this is about transport regulations and invoke all sorts of 'rules' but the clear steer I am getting from collegues working with the waste companies is that they dont want to put this waste into their incinerators which is now the overwhelming method of black bag disposal in the UK. It reduces their margins so they dont want to do it. Siiimple. How much it affects their economics, I have not been able to find out.

The outcome of this is they tell their waste supplier (the CRT) they will no longer take this waste in the mixed waste they pick up. They will likely use an excuse of 'health' and 'transport' but the bottom line is litterally their bottom line - they are driven by money like every company these days. All of the waste management companies run their own incinerators (Biffa, VIridor, Shanks etc) so they will all be doing  the same thing and companies like CRT will be forced to stop putting that waste in or pay more.

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7 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

But they were told it was OK to behave like that by C&RT, until a month ago they were doing nothing wrong in C&RTs eyes. I would add I think its discussing to put it in bins but the people who have installed these toilets were IMO badly advised.

CaRT told them it should be composted, but could be double bagged and binned.  Bad advice, certainly, but little harm provided the number of people doing it was very small.

Much of the bad advice has come from social media, etc, with some of the "bag and bin" proponents being quite vociferous, and dismissive of any other point of view.

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7 hours ago, LadyG said:

I wonder what are the 'huge advances in composting toilets'? 

A shit box is a shit box, a black bag is a black bag.

Since Victoria times, and before, men used to separate piss and no huge advances

I think the "huge advance" is separation of liquid and solid. Many years ago, a friend had a composting loo. It stank, and, according to him, was very liable to do so if it received too much input in too short a time. I don't think modern ones have the same problem.

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3 hours ago, Iain_S said:

CaRT told them it should be composted, but could be double bagged and binned.  Bad advice, certainly, but little harm provided the number of people doing it was very small.

Much of the bad advice has come from social media, etc, with some of the "bag and bin" proponents being quite vociferous, and dismissive of any other point of view.

 

And that's probably leading to CaRTs biggest problem -- even if they change the rules, how do they make the vociferous social media bag'n'binners obey them?

 

It's difficult to see any workable alternative to effectively banning composting toilets on the canals, either directly as a license condition or indirectly via BSS or insurance terms or something else -- but CaRT need to find a way to make this happen.

 

For all those who say this isn't possible because [insert reason of your choice] you'd better hope there is a way of them enforcing the rules, because the obvious alternative for CaRT is to remove all the rubbish bins from the canals... 😞

Edited by IanD
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50 minutes ago, IanD said:

For all those who say this isn't possible because [insert reason of your choice] you'd better hope there is a way of them enforcing the rules, because the only obvious alternative is to remove all the rubbish bins from the canals... 😞

 

Which of course will never happen.

 

Not even worthy of suggestion.

 

 

Edited by The Happy Nomad
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8 hours ago, doratheexplorer said:

(snip)

  Problem solved. 

 

Renegotiate with Biffa to take the extra waste.  Then record composting toilets on the BSS and charge the supplement accordingly.  If I were about to get a composting loo and then found out I had to pay a bit extra, then I could make an informed decision on it.  Sounds fine to me.

That could be the thin end of a long wedge, as well as being a trifle unfair to those who do compost fully and do not involve CaRT infrastructure for disposal.

How long before a similar supplement is added  for those who have cassette toilets? All these Elsan disposal points must cost a fair bit to keep operational and unblocked!

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6 minutes ago, Iain_S said:

 

How long before a similar supplement is added  for those who have cassette toilets? All these Elsan disposal points must cost a fair bit to keep operational and unblocked!

Especially as some on FB are saying how un hygienic some of them are and that they should all be to a basic standard

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18 minutes ago, matty40s said:

Says forum nanny and chief shit expert.

 

Do you have some sort of desire to repeatedly make yourself look like the forum idiot?

 

If so, you are doing a great job Mathew.

 

If you think crt are going to actually remove all the bins what will you do?

 

Or was the point I was making a bit too complex for you to grasp?

 

Sad little man.

 

 

Edited by The Happy Nomad
Dealing with cabbage
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9 hours ago, Iain_S said:

That could be the thin end of a long wedge, as well as being a trifle unfair to those who do compost fully and do not involve CaRT infrastructure for disposal.

How long before a similar supplement is added  for those who have cassette toilets? All these Elsan disposal points must cost a fair bit to keep operational and unblocked!

I would be prepared to pay a supplement for the use of elsans, especially if it meant the money currently used to keep those operational might then go on maintaining the system.  The whole network is slowly degrading and if boaters only argue about rights and privileges instead of working together and doing something about it then C&RT will continue to let the canals go to ruin.   

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9 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

The bins disappeared on the Broads when the Broads Authority had to pick up the tab

So where do folks deposit rubbish on the Broads?

I don't forsee  bins being removed, in fact much more effort into recycling will be the best way forward, so that there is a direct to landfill in at every site, and a dry waste bin at every site. Some sort of Just in Time rather than just after would be a great help, is it possible, some sort of spy camera for example? 

 

Edited by LadyG
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Just now, LadyG said:

So where do folks deposit rubbish on the Broads?

I don't forsee  bins being removed, infa more effort in to recycling will be the best way forward, so that there is a direct to landfill in at every site, and a dry waste bin at every site. Some sort of Just in Time rather than just after would be a great help, is it possible, some sort of spy camera for example? 

 

There are dry waste and bottle bins at some Elsans but they are misused. I can't see C&RT putting more effort into recycling when boaters  don't bother. 

 

haggis

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Years ago before the canals became crowded we used to carry a spade and if the loo became full before we came across a disposal point we would dig a hole and bury it in waste land or by the side of the towpath. (To be fair we did use the nasty elsan fluid in those days which smelt worse than the poo but killed all life including pathogens)

The lock keeper where I kept one boat did not have a proper loo just an elsan, the contents were buried in his rose garden, he had fine roses.

I seem to remember too that BW as was made it part of the access agreement or lease with boat yards that they provide elsan and rubbish disposal foc for boaters thus saving BW the cost of providing same.

Just saying.

 

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There has been a lot of discussion about the rules, regulations and contractual obligations around waste on here, but there needs to be a degree of realism applied particularly when it comes to changing people's behaviour.

 

Are people who have spent £500+ on a dry toilet (at a time when CRT openly permitted bag and bin) about to rip them out and go back to Elsan/Pump-out at further cost? No, and I don't blame them.

 

Could you introduce rules against bagging and binning? Yes. Could you enforce it? Almost certainly no (unless you have people willing to tear open every black bin bag looking for treasure). Banning all dry toilets on boats is not the answer either - aside from difficulty enforcing it, it would be akin to using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

 

I know the age-old toilet debate is one as old as recreational boating itself, but let's not forget we are all boaters and all want the best for the waterways, regardless of what type of toilet we use. These are not insurmountable problems if we work together, but looking down your nose at other boaters because they happen to have a different toilet to yours is not helpful.

 

People with dry toilets are not some secret underground group looking to undermine the rules, they were sold them as a legitimate (in the eyes of CRT until recently) choice of toilet for their boat. It's no use looking for one single party to blame for the situation because there isn't one. The way forward should be a pragmatic one that considers all factors involved.

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2 minutes ago, BrumBargee said:

There has been a lot of discussion about the rules, regulations and contractual obligations around waste on here, but there needs to be a degree of realism applied particularly when it comes to changing people's behaviour.

 

Are people who have spent £500+ on a dry toilet (at a time when CRT openly permitted bag and bin) about to rip them out and go back to Elsan/Pump-out at further cost? No, and I don't blame them.

 

Could you introduce rules against bagging and binning? Yes. Could you enforce it? Almost certainly no (unless you have people willing to tear open every black bin bag looking for treasure). Banning all dry toilets on boats is not the answer either - aside from difficulty enforcing it, it would be akin to using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

 

I know the age-old toilet debate is one as old as recreational boating itself, but let's not forget we are all boaters and all want the best for the waterways, regardless of what type of toilet we use. These are not insurmountable problems if we work together, but looking down your nose at other boaters because they happen to have a different toilet to yours is not helpful.

 

People with dry toilets are not some secret underground group looking to undermine the rules, they were sold them as a legitimate (in the eyes of CRT until recently) choice of toilet for their boat. It's no use looking for one single party to blame for the situation because there isn't one. The way forward should be a pragmatic one that considers all factors involved.

Great opening post! Welcome. 

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21 minutes ago, BrumBargee said:

There has been a lot of discussion about the rules, regulations and contractual obligations around waste on here, but there needs to be a degree of realism applied particularly when it comes to changing people's behaviour.

 

Are people who have spent £500+ on a dry toilet (at a time when CRT openly permitted bag and bin) about to rip them out and go back to Elsan/Pump-out at further cost? No, and I don't blame them.

Openly permitted? Or tolerated? The VHS/Betamax argument is useful here, Betamax was a better quality system but VHS won out, no one compensated the Betamax buyers.

Could you introduce rules against bagging and binning? Yes. Could you enforce it? Almost certainly no (unless you have people willing to tear open every black bin bag looking for treasure). Banning all dry toilets on boats is not the answer either - aside from difficulty enforcing it, it would be akin to using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

Those with the facilities to compost appropriately should definitely be allowed to use the composting toilets. Those who patently don’t have the facility to compost need to get a suitable toilet.

I know the age-old toilet debate is one as old as recreational boating itself, but let's not forget we are all boaters and all want the best for the waterways, regardless of what type of toilet we use.

Massive assumption here, there are many boat dwellers who do so for their own reasons and don’t give a toss about what is best for the waterways. 

These are not insurmountable problems if we work together, but looking down your nose at other boaters because they happen to have a different toilet to yours is not helpful.

I don’t think people are ‘looking down their nose’ at those with a different toilet, they are annoyed with those who are using a toilet which is not fit for purpose due to their lack of facility to compost and exposing everyone who deals with the waste disposal facilities on the waterways to their poorly processed faeces. 

People with dry toilets are not some secret underground group looking to undermine the rules, they were sold them as a legitimate (in the eyes of CRT until recently) choice of toilet for their boat. It's no use looking for one single party to blame for the situation because there isn't one. The way forward should be a pragmatic one that considers all factors involved.

 

 

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I thought I'd try and inject a bit of levity into what has become a rather acrimonious debate...

 

Ode to A Composting Toilet

 

A composting toilet's a wonderful thing,

When used as the name presupposes.

Turn your poo into compost and spread on your garden

And you'll come up smelling of roses.

 

Now, putting your poo in a black bag -- or two --

And then binning it, might be convenient

And was even allowed under CaRT's previous rules --

Though some would say these were too lenient.

 

But as more and more boaters installed compost loos,

And the bins filled with black-bagged surprises,

The people who emptied the bins cried, "Enough --

We keep winning unwanted poo prizes!"

 

Which left poor old CaRT in a bit of a mess --

They had to tell boaters that they could no longer

Put poo into bins, but they didn't warn

Or consult with them, causing much anger.

 

But the canals have changed and the rules must change too,

Poo bagging and binning has ended.

If you want to keep using a composting loo,

You must use it as nature intended.

 

So let's raise a glass to the composting loo,

It's greener than Bazalgette's option

For boaters who compost (and don't bag their poo!) --

We might even see wider adoption!

Edited by IanD
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6 minutes ago, Phoenix_V said:

?

Did you expand the quoted text?   One of the drawbacks of the new forum set up is if you intersperse replies in a long post the post looks as if you have just quoted and not added anything.

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5 minutes ago, IanD said:

I thought I'd try and inject a bit of levity into what has become a rather acrimonious debate...

 

Ode to A Composting Toilet

 

A composting toilet's a wonderful thing,

When used as the name presupposes.

Turn your poo into compost and spread on your garden

And you'll come up smelling of roses.

 

Now, putting your poo in a black bag -- or two --

And then binning it, might be convenient

And was even allowed under CaRT's previous rules --

Though some would say these were too lenient.

 

But as more and more boaters installed compost loos,

And the bins filled with black-bagged surprises,

The people who emptied the bins cried, "Enough --

We keep winning unwanted poo prizes!"

 

Which left poor old CaRT in a bit of a mess --

They had to tell boaters that they could no longer

Put poo into bins, but they didn't warn

Or consult with them, causing much anger.

 

But the canals have changed and the rules must change too,

Poo bagging and binning has ended.

If you want to keep using a composting loo,

You must use it as nature intended.

 

So let's raise a glass to the composting loo,

It's greener than Bazalgette's option

For boaters who compost and don't just bag poo --

We might even see wider adoption!

Can't say I agree with the sentiment but the quality of the poetry is undeniable!

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This is all just another example of unintended consequences The canal infrastructure including water and waste disposal was never designed to support so many people living full time on boats  and it was quite adequate before the advent of the so called continuous cruiser. Now facilities and often filthy  and blocked and you don't want to use them. CaRT should charge cc licence holders an extra premium equal to the average council tax plus water rates at least to improve facilities.

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