C&RT say don't empty your compost toilet in our bins.

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, IanD said:

I would have thought that a holding tank would not be required if one of these was fitted, since the purpose of the regulation is to stop waste discharge which this does even more effectively.

 

Only if the infrastucture is in place, AND is used.

Not quite sure how the likes of (say) Brighton or Southampton marinas in the 'middle' of a city would go about having compost heaps, not something the NIMBY's would want.

[IanD]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Only if the infrastucture is in place, AND is used.

Not quite sure how the likes of (say) Brighton or Southampton marinas in the 'middle' of a city would go about having compost heaps, not something the NIMBY's would want.

I was talking about the Cranford Cranfield Nano-membrane toilet, there are no compost heaps needed for this.

 

If you take everything into account, composting toilets are really only suitable for cases where the toilet owner can deal with composting their own waste properly and has space to do it -- it's theirs so they'll take care of it and not abuse it, nobody else has to deal with their poo, they want to make it work, nobody has to be paid to take the waste away or dispose of it, and it's "green" (Peter and mates). For all the reasons discussed in this thread they don't really work on a boat which really wants all the waste disposal issues to be "somebody else's problem", until the day (which may never come) when they're in widespread use everywhere, not just on boats.

 

Mind you Brighton is a famously hippy place, maybe they would like a local supply of eco-friendly compost?

Edited August 16, 2021 by IanD

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, IanD said:

I was talking about the Cranford toilet, there are no compost heaps needed for this.

 

Not having any idea what a 'cranford toilet is I Googled it.

 

All Google comes up with is "Public Toilets at Cranford", OR, a toilet alarm system (ala Disabled pull-cord toilet system), or Chromed toilet-roll holders made by Cranfords.

 

Can you educate me ?

[adam1uk]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Not having any idea what a 'cranford toilet is I Googled it.

 

All Google comes up with is "Public Toilets at Cranford", OR, a toilet alarm system (ala Disabled pull-cord toilet system), or Chromed toilet-roll holders made by Cranfords.

 

Can you educate me ?

 

Just look back a few posts.  It's all there.

[Alan de Enfield]

40 minutes ago, adam1uk said:

 

Just look back a few posts.  It's all there.

 

Ahhhh - you mean the "Nano-Membrane toilet" (it wasn't called the 'Cranfield Toilet').

[IanD]

27 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Ahhhh - you mean the "Nano-Membrane toilet" (it wasn't called the 'Cranfield Toilet').

That's the one -- I should have checked the name instead of typing it wrongly from memory, fixed it now... 😞

Edited August 16, 2021 by IanD

[ditchcrawler]

On 15/08/2021 at 11:28, Loddon said:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B0797YCX15/ref=sspa_mb_hqp_detail_mobile_aax_0?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

The perfect toilet for the bag and bin brigade 😷

I carry the up market version https://www.popaloo.co.uk/ 

[Bargebuilder]

3 hours ago, IanD said:

so between 47 (55%) and 65 (75%) is the likely range for wanting it banned in the entire boater population.

The users of separating loos may find the results of that survey really encouraging, if only 2% of boaters use separating toilets, but between 25% and 45% of boaters either support or aren't bothered by the practice of bagging and binning. 

 

That might imply that there are far more than 2% of boaters who might in the future give serious thought to using separating toilets themselves. 

 

Just imagine the increase in popularity and acceptance of the use of separating toilets if a properly organised 'humanure' collection service were to be laid on.

 

 

 

 

[Bargebuilder]

1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

I carry the up market version https://www.popaloo.co.uk/ 

That looks really good.

I wonder if it could be adapted for use with a urine separator, as you might have hit upon a good looking, portable and cheap idea for anyone thinking of trying 'composting'

[Chagall]

2 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

I carry the up market version https://www.popaloo.co.uk/ 

Oh, I like the web site! ... 'if its good enough for Darth Vadar...may the popaloo be with you"   and "Repeat Pooscription"  for more bags of powder. Cracking sense of humour. 

[IanD]

4 hours ago, Bargebuilder said:

The users of separating loos may find the results of that survey really encouraging, if only 2% of boaters use separating toilets, but between 25% and 45% of boaters either support or aren't bothered by the practice of bagging and binning. 

 

That might imply that there are far more than 2% of boaters who might in the future give serious thought to using separating toilets themselves. 

 

Just imagine the increase in popularity and acceptance of the use of separating toilets if a properly organised 'humanure' collection service were to be laid on.

 

 

 

 

The last paragraph might very well be true, in the same way that most people would be happy if our electrical power came from nuclear fusion -- "too cheap to meter" IIRC...

 

The problem is *making* it happen, not *wanting* it to happen...

Edited August 16, 2021 by IanD

[ditchcrawler]

On 10/08/2021 at 21:16, ditchcrawler said:

I am at Sutton Cheney and the Biffa bins have all gone, the only thing in the bin compound is an old gas fridge and gas grill, no skips. There is a large skip behind the Bin compound with what looks like 15lt of dirty diesel beside it

Top of Atherston has all empty Biffa bins so they must have just serviced it.

[frangar]

29 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Top of Atherston has all empty Biffa bins so they must have just serviced it.

We were at Atherstone a couple of weeks ago…bins were mainly empty….however some arse had still just left a bin bag on the floor next to them….how hard is it to put it in an empty bin?? 

[MtB]

2 hours ago, frangar said:

We were at Atherstone a couple of weeks ago…bins were mainly empty….however some arse had still just left a bin bag on the floor next to them….how hard is it to put it in an empty bin?? 

 

The bins might have been full when the arse left it there. Biffa bods only empty the bins, they don't clear up the carp dumped in the bins area but not in the bins, do they?

[frangar]

5 hours ago, MtB said:

 

The bins might have been full when the arse left it there. Biffa bods only empty the bins, they don't clear up the carp dumped in the bins area but not in the bins, do they?

It looked freshly dumped of you know what I mean!….had the same at norbury last year….one bin was full…bags were dumped on the ground yet loads of space in some of the other bins…I just put some gloves on and had it tidy in 5 mins. The reality is some people including boaters are scruffy arses that can’t be bothered and hope someone else sorts the mess out. 

[peterboat]

3 hours ago, frangar said:

It looked freshly dumped of you know what I mean!….had the same at norbury last year….one bin was full…bags were dumped on the ground yet loads of space in some of the other bins…I just put some gloves on and had it tidy in 5 mins. The reality is some people including boaters are scruffy arses that can’t be bothered and hope someone else sorts the mess out. 

In Thorne locals have been known to dump rubbish in the bin areas! We stayed there overnight, was the only boat there yet a 3 piece suite was left in the bin area! I was puzzled how it happened but a local boater explained it to me as a constant problem 

[Jon57]

3 minutes ago, peterboat said:

In Thorne locals have been known to dump rubbish in the bin areas! We stayed there overnight, was the only boat there yet a 3 piece suite was left in the bin area! I was puzzled how it happened but a local boater explained it to me as a constant problem 

This is the problem. In this case it would be a easy thing to sort out by installing a low cost cctv system. Then make a big song and dance on the local news. Followed by new blue signs ,grrr no household rubbish. Simple.😜👍

[captain flint]

I've spoken to CRT about this and also to someone attempting to organise a collection facility for the London area. A few observations :

 

1. It's hardly surprising they have decided/been told that putting human waste in bins is not on. But it's highly regrettable that they said it was fine, until last march. People had them installed, often 'knowing' before taking that decision that the waste was ok to put in bins. Changing the toilet may well be beyond many people's budget (there are a lot of folks in the SE for whom a boat is pretty much the only abode they can afford, what with property prices - and who don't have much disposable income). 

 

2. As such, CRT would be very foolish to think this problem will go away, *regardless of the legal or moral rights and wrongs of it*

 

3. Realistically and practically speaking, as has been said on here by others, enforcement will be very difficult if possible at all. Again, ignoring any moral or legal arguments, practically speaking it seems CRT have no stick worth talking about - but aren't offering any carrots either. 

 

So, 4. CRT are likely to have a headache here. I'm not sure to what extent that is really their fault, but that's how it looks either way. 

 

(Though as an aside, a little bird told me that Biffa have raised the issue once and only once and CRT might not feel they have to do much about it if Biffa don't raise it again. On this point, though, I've also seen some non Biffa CRT bins, so this could be more complex than that.) 

 

The paid collection idea seems good in principle - there's a small company called circular revolution or circular evolution, I forget. Look it up on Google if interested. 

 

I've spoken to the owner /manager, as well as CRT about this. 

 

The company uses a commercial composting facility that has an EA license to break down human waste, though I don't know where it is. 

 

All in all it feels like if CRT really is in a spot over this (ie if Biffa or other contractors continue to make noise), then they really are in a spot, as things stand. 

 

When I asked Ros at CRT how they think this will progress and what solutions might actually work, she pointed to the cottage industry/entrepreneurial approach as embodied by the company I mentioned. This seems insanely optimistic /rather weak to me. Especially as the company can only really cover a small area. It's basically one person with a bike.

 

It's not easy to dream up solutions, to be fair to crt, but there did not appear to be any appetite at CRT to even consider options that might, you know, actually work. Or even to just brainstorm and see if someone can come up with something. 

 

I have wondered if there might even be an opportunity here. If there are commercial facilities that deal with this stuff, then it would be great if CRT could organise some kind of system so that human waste from boaters goes there. Obviously it would not be free, and the law as it stands, so far as I understand it, doesn't help crt here. It would be great if they could charge more for a licence for a boat with a composting/dessicating toilet, to cover costs - I'm not sure they can, though? But if they could set up such a system they could blather on - with some justification - about helping their community get involved with an eco-friendly soil enrichment programme. Which would fit very well with all their efforts to be more about the whole wellness/green/blue spaces/eco vibe they seem to prefer to thinking about boats and canals and rivers. If they can't find a way to make composting toilet owners pay, though, they'd rather find themselves back at square one - no carrot, no stick, hard to imagine any progress. 

 

I'm glad I'm not at crt having to think about this, it's all a bit of a mess isn't it. 

 

(That last dig about wellness etc as opposed to boats and waterways is tongue in cheek. It can look like that from the outside sometimes, but I'm sure it's an over-simplification, and I do appreciate that with an organisation like CRT, it's hard from the outside to really understand what's going on on the inside, what's possible and what isn't, what the pressures are - including but not restricted to financial- etc, so I don't really feel sufficiently informed to have a strong opinion about that) 

 

 

[captain flint]

One other thing, from the grapevine, so quite possibly unreliable info:

 

The real issue for Biffa is of bags exploding in bins. In London and SE, so far as I know, black bin liners contents are all incinerated

 

Oh and on the subject of urine, I'm pretty sure the EA specifically states that emptying urine tanks on a tree root more than 3 metres from a waterway is fine. I'll Duane corrected if anyone can find a relevant link (I'm to lazy to look it up again). Urine is relatively sterile stuff and - again so far as I'm aware - not liable to cause pathogenic issues. 

Edited March 8, 2022 by captain flint

[robtheplod]

Going back to the interview David on Cruising the Cut did with the head honcho, i got the impression that a final decision hasn't really been reached and they are still 'exploring'.........

[captain flint]

17 hours ago, captain flint said:

 pretty sure the EA specifically states that emptying urine tanks on a tree root more than 3 metres from a waterway is fine

I think I might be wrong and they say ten metres. Again, don't quote me

[Alan de Enfield]

 

The EA's 'Postion Statement' on composting toilets (from a few years ago, before they became more popular on boats) :

 

Systems which separate the liquid and sanitary wastes from the solids

 

In these systems which can be either permanently sited or portable, a carbon source such as sawdust or wood shavingsii is added to reduce odour and aid the degradation process.

These toilets are effectively septic tanks and as with the septic tank sludge the resulting treated material can be spread on land as a fertiliser in accordance with the Sludge Use in Agriculture Regulations, the Safe Sludge Matrix and the Code of Good Agricultural Practice (COGAP) or Standard rules permit SR2010No6.

The separated liquid fraction can be:

• stored in a sealed tank and collected by a waste contractor for disposal at a STW

• discharged to land as is the case with traditional septic tanks.

 

 

EA Poition Statement Composting Toilets.pdf

Edited March 9, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[captain flint]

7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

The EA's 'Postion Statement' on composting toilets :

 

 

 

EA Poition Statement Composting Toilets.pdf 94.38 kB · 2 downloads

Thank you! 

 

Yes, looking into this I realise the ten metres guidance is for where to establish the site of a proper soak away pit. Duly noted. 

 

Personally I dump the urine into an elsan. But then I mainly urinate al fresco in highly carefully selected spots (ie on a tree 😂). I hope there's a big difference in terms of impact between the odd little wee patch and dumping litres of the stuff in one go

[Maffi]

So where do boats fit into this:- "There are three different situations in which composting toilets are used:

• Permanently sited composting toilets at private dwellings, campsites, holiday parks, National Trust properties and recreation/conservation areas.

• Portable composting toilets hired out for use at festivals and show grounds etc as an alternative to sealed chemical toilets.

• Temporary latrines which are dug into the ground and moved when the pit is full.

[TheBiscuits]

CRT have a different approach on the Western L&L - they have taken the bins away!

 

They closed the bin store at Burscough Wharf last year due to abuse and put up a sign saying the nearest bin was a skip at Moss Bridge.  Then they removed the skip from Moss Bridge due to even more abuse. Mostly non-boaters I think - the stuff we saw looked more like house clearances than boaters' waste. 

 

Nearest bins to Burscough are:

Sparks Bridge Services on the Rufford Branch, which is shut for lock works.

Wigan Top Lock Services , but the flight is closed.

Litherland Services, but until this week there were swing-bridges out of order stopping you going that far.