C&RT say don't empty your compost toilet in our bins.

[tree monkey]

1 hour ago, Alway Swilby said:

Ok. People with composting toilets are obviously not liked here and are bullied into making no further comments.

I don't dislike anyone with a separating toilet, it's idiots that are the problem, it always is.

Maybe eventually there will be sufficient demand that there will be organised collections or places to deposit the waste and maybe there will be justification to "socialize " the cost across the licence fee as with elsans and domestic waste, but right now I don't thing the demand is there.

 

Idiots dumping oil down elsans just shows there needs to be a very robust method of controlling how the waste is deposited/left at the collection points because sure as  eggs is eggs someone will feck the system in some way if they have a chance, I've a sneaky suspicion that if they were introducing elsan disposal as a new thing now they wouldn't make the system so open to abuse as it is now

[MtB]

4 hours ago, tree monkey said:

I've a sneaky suspicion that if they were introducing elsan disposal as a new thing now they wouldn't make the system so open to abuse as it is now

 

Its all very perplexing. Elsans and pump-outs were introduced specifically because it is considered unacceptable to put excrement in either the cut or in the general rubbish system. 

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Its all very perplexing. Elsans and pump-outs were introduced specifically because it is considered unacceptable to put excrement in either the cut or in the general rubbish system. 

 

 

But that was all before the self-absorbed, entitled, Facebook 'millenials' joined the boating fraternity.

 

"The world needs to change to meet our demands"

[tree monkey]

4 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Its all very perplexing. Elsans and pump-outs were introduced specifically because it is considered unacceptable to put excrement in either the cut or in the general rubbish system. 

Which it how it should be.

The abuse of the existing system happens though, I struggle to see how a dessicated poo disposal point could be designed that wouldn't be open to similar abuse and right now I didn't think the demands there to warrant the cost.

[Bargebuilder]

8 hours ago, tree monkey said:

 

Maybe eventually there will be sufficient demand that there will be organised collections or places to deposit the waste and maybe there will be justification to "socialize " the cost across the licence fee as with elsans and domestic waste, but right now I don't thing the demand is there.

 

 

I think that you are right, but there won't be a demand if separating toilets are banned: I hear a huge chorus, GOOD!

 

But what if separating toilets have advantages over pump-outs and cassettes, and maybe are overall better, both for the user and for the environment, with the only unsolved issue being the arrangement to collect and process the waste?

 

If the waste is commercially composted for use as a soil conditioner and fertilizer, then the use of manufactured artificial fertilizer could be reduced. Such fertilizers being neither environmentally friendly to manufacture or to spread onto our fields with the resulting run-off into water courses.

 

If the waste was sent to a digester, the gas produced could generate electricity and waste heat could heat glasshouses for the production of crops.

 

Not just the humanure from boats of course, but in 2010, composting toilets were given official approval by 'Building Control' for use in domestic dwellings as an alternative to flushing toilets.

 

If you'll excuse the pun, there is a movement towards composting loos, and for good reason.

 

I understand of course that nobody wants to pay, and I see no reason at all why they should, but:

 

Separating loos:

 

1. cost a tiny fraction to Instal; perhaps 1/10 or less of the cost of a macerator, tank and all the associated cabling and plumbing.

And:

Lower input of raw material and energy in the manufacture of a composter compared to the ceramics, pumps, plumbing and storage tanks of pump-outs.

2. Cannot block; ever.

3. Cannot smell within the boat and usually hardly noticeably outside. 

4. Require you to store two or three small buckets (10Kg each) of maturing compost, instead of hundreds of litres of the most foul smelling slurry.

5. Avoid the often unpleasant nature of macerator  toilet repairs and maintenance tasks.

6. Avoid the regular carting of heavy toilet cassettes and those splashes in the eye!

7. Vastly reduce the amount of water you need on board and so the frequency of fill-ups compared to a boat with a flushing macerator loo.

8. Avoid the need to contaminate highly processed and valuable, pure drinking water and the subsequent processing of liquid sewage, some of the processes being consumers of energy and chemicals.

9. Avoid the need to use 'blue' chemicals that may be toxic to the environment.

10. Have almost zero maintenance costs: no macerator pump or control box failures, no flexible hose replacement, no aggressive 'black' water eating away at steel or even stainless steel tanks from the inside.

11. For static live-aboards, means no more trips to the pump-out in mid-winter when the canal might be frozen.

12. The compost produced is an excellent soil conditioner and useful fertiliser, reducing the need for energy hungry, industrially produced inorganic chemical fertilizers.

 

[haggis]

14 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

 

If the waste was sent to a digester, the gas produced could generate electricity and waste heat could heat glasshouses for the production of crops.

 

This already happens in sewage plants with toilet waste which goes into the sewer system 🙂

 

Do I remember correctly that you used to have a boat (not a canal boat) but you no longer have one? if that is the case I can't quite understand your almost one man crusade on here in favour of composting toilets.  It is probably my memory though as your forum name suggests that you are having a boat built and hence your interest.

 

haggis

Edited August 15, 2021 by haggis

[Bargebuilder]

3 minutes ago, haggis said:

🙂

Do I remember correctly that you used to have a boat (not a canal boat) but you no longer have one? if that is the case I can't quite understand your almost one man crusade on here in favour of composting toilets. 

 

haggis

Indeed you do.

 

Having lived on a barge with a pump-out and then changed over to a composter and been delighted that I did, I'm sure that there will be readers who are looking for information and an insight into the experience of others before they choose what to install in whatever boat they own. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Arthur Marshall]

It's an interesting but pointless discussion. If anyone thinks CRT have the money or the will to organise and police composting sites they're off their heads (nautical toilet joke). There's no commercial viability in a national collection arrangement because clowners won't pay - they'll just carry on chucking it in the bins. Many elsans and associated sites are already disappearing because CRT can't afford to empty them or repair them when they get vandalised. Waste disposal points close down or don't get emptied. It's simpler and cheaper to ban them, so they will.

[IanD]

To answer the question about numbers, there are probably about 700 bag'n'binners on the canals -- the last estimate from toilet suppliers was that there are about a thousand composting toilets on the canals, and (according to the survey last year) about 70% don't compost properly.

 

So if the above cost estimate was correct they'd have to pay about £400 per year each to cover the cost of collection, which is the same £15 a time once per fortnight as a pumpout. I did a similar sum earlier and came up with double this and it could be higher still when everything including transport, wages and dealing with the waste is included. If the number of bag'n'binners has actually decreased this year since the CART rule change as was claimed earlier, the cost per head (or bottom...) will be higher still. 

 

In Bargebuilder's ideal green world we would all use composting toilets with the waste properly dealt with. In the real world, the 98% of boaters who don't bag'n'bin fail to see why they should pay to solve the self-created problem caused by the 2% who do, and the 2% are pretty much certain to be unwilling to pay for it themselves.

 

As has been said repeatedly, the only feasible solution for CART looks to be an outright ban on these toilets on the canal system -- because it's impossible to police disposal of the waste once it's been created, the only answer is to stop it being created in the first place. 

Edited August 15, 2021 by IanD

[Chagall]

25 minutes ago, IanD said:

To answer the question about numbers, there are probably about 700 bag'n'binners on the canals -- the last estimate from toilet suppliers was that there are about a thousand composting toilets on the canals, and (according to the survey last year) about 70% don't compost properly.

 

So if the above cost estimate was correct they'd have to pay about £400 per year each to cover the cost of collection, which is the same £15 a time once per fortnight as a pumpout. I did a similar sum earlier and came up with double this and it could be higher still when everything including transport, wages and dealing with the waste is included. If the number of bag'n'binners has actually decreased this year since the CART rule change as was claimed earlier, the cost per head (or bottom...) will be higher still. 

 

In Bargebuilder's ideal green world we would all use composting toilets with the waste properly dealt with. In the real world, the 98% of boaters who don't bag'n'bin fail to see why they should pay to solve the self-created problem caused by the 2% who do, and the 2% are pretty much certain to be unwilling to pay for it themselves.

 

As has been said repeatedly, the only feasible solution for CART looks to be an outright ban on these toilets on the canal system -- because it's impossible to police disposal of the waste once it's been created, the only answer is to stop it being created in the first place. 

This is meant with sincerity and respect but I really hope you, and other naysayers, are proved wrong, however long it takes.  

[Bargebuilder]

5 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

In Bargebuilder's ideal world we would all use composting toilets with the waste properly dealt with. In the real world, the 98% of boaters who don't bag'n'bin fail to see why they should pay to solve the self-created problem caused by the 2% who do, and the 2% are almost certain be unwilling to pay for it themselves.

 

 

It is also possible, but I accept extremely unlikely, that boat owners with pump-outs and cassette toilets will discover how much more pleasant separating toilets are to live with than either, and want to enjoy the many benefits to them and of course to the environment.

 

Yes, if the cost of collection were spread across all licence payers it would amount to an increase of about £7 each, but that represents perhaps 1/2 or 1/3 of the cost of a single pump-out.

 

Cassette toilet users, who's toilet choice is currently subsidised, would of course be about £7 a year worse off, but even they, having made the change to composting, I'm sure would never want to change back.

[David Mack]

13 hours ago, Loddon said:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B0797YCX15/ref=sspa_mb_hqp_detail_mobile_aax_0?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

The perfect toilet for the bag and bin brigade 😷

There was also this simply named product, sadly no longer available, produced by 'The Brown Corporation'.

[IanD]

9 hours ago, Chagall said:

This is meant with sincerity and respect but I really hope you, and other naysayers, are proved wrong, however long it takes.  

I've said repeatedly that composting toilets are a great idea when used properly, either composting the waste themselves or getting somebody else to do it. I've also said that if most boaters used them this would be better than cassettes or pumpouts, for all the reasons Bargebuilder said.

 

But the problem is that given CART finances -- and composters willingness to pay, and eveyone else's unwillingness -- there doesn't seem to be any way to get there from where we are now, unless you believe in unicorns and sunlit uplands...

 

That makes me a realist, not a naysayer. 

[Arthur Marshall]

9 hours ago, Bargebuilder said:

It is also possible, but I accept extremely unlikely, that boat owners with pump-outs and cassette toilets will discover how much more pleasant separating toilets are to live with than either, and want to enjoy the many benefits to them and of course to the environment.

 

Yes, if the cost of collection were spread across all licence payers it would amount to an increase of about £7 each, but that represents perhaps 1/2 or 1/3 of the cost of a single pump-out.

 

Cassette toilet users, who's toilet choice is currently subsidised, would of course be about £7 a year worse off, but even they, having made the change to composting, I'm sure would never want to change back.

A cassette toilet, emptied regularly and treated properly, is no more unpleasant to empty than flushing the loo in your house.  It has always seemed a bit precious to me that some people want to pretend that bodily processes never really happen (unless it's that of a dog). It's just stuff.

I blame an entire generation brought up on Enid Blyton and Arthur Ransome books. I noticed at about the age of eight that neither the Famous Five nor the Swallows and Amazons ever went to the toilet and wondered, even then, about the state of the latter's island after a week. Bilbo, being a Baggins, obviously just hung his on an Ent or chucked it in a skip.

[Chagall]

7 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

A cassette toilet, emptied regularly and treated properly, is no more unpleasant to empty than flushing the loo in your house.  It has always seemed a bit precious to me that some people want to pretend that bodily processes never really happen (unless it's that of a dog). It's just stuff.

I blame an entire generation brought up on Enid Blyton and Arthur Ransome books. I noticed at about the age of eight that neither the Famous Five nor the Swallows and Amazons ever went to the toilet and wondered, even then, about the state of the latter's island after a week. Bilbo, being a Baggins, obviously just hung his on an Ent or chucked it in a skip.

Its not always about being "precious" about the contents, for me its more to do with the fact that when it is full its heavy!  If only half filled when out travelling you need at last three in case Elsan's are few or blocked. Taking up time to empty three also means more delay at Elsans for everybody else. So No it isn't as simple as flushing the loo. 

 

 

[MtB]

31 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

A cassette toilet, emptied regularly and treated properly, is no more unpleasant to empty than flushing the loo in your house. 

 

I dunno about the state of the loo in your house but in mine, flushing it is an infinitely more pleasant experience than emptying a cassette in virtually any CRT Elsan point. 

[haggis]

11 hours ago, Bargebuilder said:

Indeed you do.

 

Having lived on a barge with a pump-out and then changed over to a composter and been delighted that I did, I'm sure that there will be readers who are looking for information and an insight into the experience of others before they choose what to install in whatever boat they own. 

 

 

Perhaps there are boaters who will be convinced by your arguments BUT I think that it only fair that you also point out that if they install a composing toilet they will have to find a way of disposing or the output other than chucking it in C&RT bins from the end of this year. We have to be realistic and accept that it is extremely unlikely that any composting facilities will be installed canal side. 

You may have been delighted with your compost toilet but I am equally delighted with my pump out system. Absolutely no smell, use it like an ordinary toilet, pay less than £20 every 6 weeks of use to have it emptied by someone else. 

 

haggis

[MtB]

I do find "composting toilet" name misleading, as they don't compost.

 

When I first heard about composting toilets I thought that sounded a good idea. I imagined a rather large toilet that retained all the solids for composting, with a hatch somewhere round the back that you opened once in a while and shovelled out compost, like you buy in the garden centre. Excellent! 

 

But when I got to actually see one, what a disappointment. When I realised all they do is separate the solids for YOU to process somewhere else in some other way, possibly composting, possibly desiccating, possibly just putting in a waste bin, I forecast they would not sell well or be a success. How wrong was I? It turns out that many boaters are seduced by the idea of this, but I've no idea why. And nor have most (but not all) boaters given their quickness to dump their excrement in CRT bins rather than do the work and turn it into the lovely compost they first wanted to produce. 

 

 

[doratheexplorer]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

I've said repeatedly that composting toilets are a great idea when used properly, either composting the waste themselves or getting somebody else to do it. I've also said that if most boaters used them this would be better than cassettes or pumpouts, for all the reasons Bargebuilder said.

 

But the problem is that given CART finances -- and composters willingness to pay, and eveyone else's unwillingness -- there doesn't seem to be any way to get there from where we are now, unless you believe in unicorns and sunlit uplands...

 

That makes me a realist, not a naysayer. 

I don't have a compost toilet but I'm willing to pay.  Please don't think you're speaking for me.

[peterboat]

12 hours ago, Bargebuilder said:

I think that you are right, but there won't be a demand if separating toilets are banned: I hear a huge chorus, GOOD!

 

But what if separating toilets have advantages over pump-outs and cassettes, and maybe are overall better, both for the user and for the environment, with the only unsolved issue being the arrangement to collect and process the waste?

 

If the waste is commercially composted for use as a soil conditioner and fertilizer, then the use of manufactured artificial fertilizer could be reduced. Such fertilizers being neither environmentally friendly to manufacture or to spread onto our fields with the resulting run-off into water courses.

 

If the waste was sent to a digester, the gas produced could generate electricity and waste heat could heat glasshouses for the production of crops.

 

Not just the humanure from boats of course, but in 2010, composting toilets were given official approval by 'Building Control' for use in domestic dwellings as an alternative to flushing toilets.

 

If you'll excuse the pun, there is a movement towards composting loos, and for good reason.

 

I understand of course that nobody wants to pay, and I see no reason at all why they should, but:

 

Separating loos:

 

1. cost a tiny fraction to Instal; perhaps 1/10 or less of the cost of a macerator, tank and all the associated cabling and plumbing.

And:

Lower input of raw material and energy in the manufacture of a composter compared to the ceramics, pumps, plumbing and storage tanks of pump-outs.

2. Cannot block; ever.

3. Cannot smell within the boat and usually hardly noticeably outside. 

4. Require you to store two or three small buckets (10Kg each) of maturing compost, instead of hundreds of litres of the most foul smelling slurry.

5. Avoid the often unpleasant nature of macerator  toilet repairs and maintenance tasks.

6. Avoid the regular carting of heavy toilet cassettes and those splashes in the eye!

7. Vastly reduce the amount of water you need on board and so the frequency of fill-ups compared to a boat with a flushing macerator loo.

8. Avoid the need to contaminate highly processed and valuable, pure drinking water and the subsequent processing of liquid sewage, some of the processes being consumers of energy and chemicals.

9. Avoid the need to use 'blue' chemicals that may be toxic to the environment.

10. Have almost zero maintenance costs: no macerator pump or control box failures, no flexible hose replacement, no aggressive 'black' water eating away at steel or even stainless steel tanks from the inside.

11. For static live-aboards, means no more trips to the pump-out in mid-winter when the canal might be frozen.

12. The compost produced is an excellent soil conditioner and useful fertiliser, reducing the need for energy hungry, industrially produced inorganic chemical fertilizers.

 

I honestly don't think I could go back to a pump out or cassette toilet! We have a cassette toilet in the camper, its such a stinky process emptying it, thankfully we normally only use it for weeks but occasionally it's poos  such a crap system in comparison to a composting toilet 

[Chagall]

11 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

I don't have a compost toilet but I'm willing to pay.  Please don't think you're speaking for me.

I agree, but many in this thread seem to think its an impossible dream and some like to ridicule those who hope as being rather stupid believers of Unicorns.  I think many would be prepared to pay, if it cost comparable to Haggis's pricing of £20 every six weeks for pumpout then Id consider getting one. Even if it cost far more for those with dry toilets it sounds like most would still pay it for the seeming benefits.  C&RT would eventually benefit if more and more were encouraged via waste bins especially provided for such waste.  The pilot scheme  for such is in its infancy but there is no reason to suggest why it would not flourish and proliferate.   

 

I do realise there will always be the few that spoil it for the many, but that happens in every single aspect of life. The few with dry toilets who use the system properly, or at least wish to,  could eventually eventually  number more than those with cassettes. 

[IanD]

25 minutes ago, MtB said:

I do find "composting toilet" name misleading, as they don't compost.

 

When I first heard about composting toilets I thought that sounded a good idea. I imagined a rather large toilet that retained all the solids for composting, with a hatch somewhere round the back that you opened once in a while and shovelled out compost, like you buy in the garden centre. Excellent! 

 

But when I got to actually see one, what a disappointment. When I realised all they do is separate the solids for YOU to process somewhere else in some other way, possibly composting, possibly desiccating, possibly just putting in a waste bin, I forecast they would not sell well or be a success. How wrong was I? It turns out that many boaters are seduced by the idea of this, but I've no idea why. And nor have most (but not all) boaters given their quickness to dump their excrement in CRT bins rather than do the work and turn it into the lovely compost they first wanted to produce. 

 

 

 

Perhaps because going by things like blogs and forum posts only a minority of composters (like Peter) ever had the intention of using them to make compost?

 

They installed them because they were nice to use and convenient for them (no heavy cassette, no expensive pump-out), and because they could bin the waste for free, with no space or work needed to store/turn/tend compost heaps.

 

So the name isn't misleading for the minority who use them as the manufacturers intended, but is misleading for the majority who don't -- and it's these who are causing the waste disposal problem.

[Bargebuilder]

14 minutes ago, MtB said:

I do find "composting toilet" name misleading, as they don't compost.

 

When I first heard about composting toilets I thought that sounded a good idea. I imagined a rather large toilet that retained all the solids for composting, with a hatch somewhere round the back that you opened once in a while and shovelled out compost, like you buy in the garden centre. Excellent! 

 

But when I got to actually see one, what a disappointment. When I realised all they do is separate the solids for YOU to process somewhere else in some other way, possibly composting, possibly desiccating, possibly just putting in a waste bin, I forecast they would not sell well or be a success. How wrong was I? It turns out that many boaters are seduced by the idea of this, but I've no idea why. And nor have most (but not all) boaters given their quickness to dump their excrement in CRT bins rather than do the work and turn it into the lovely compost they first wanted to produce. 

 

 

I don't think even committed composters/separators would disagree with the points you make. As most people are unable or unwilling to complete the composting process on board, the only acceptable solution is for a collection system for all. 

 

The annual increase in licence fee would have to be about £7 higher than it otherwise would, but would we notice?

 

The question is, is the 'dry' collection of toilet waste a better system than either pump-out or cassette and so worth pursuing?

 

There have been listed a host of reasons why separating might be better than pump-out or cassette, but very little for the reverse position, apart from a chorus of 'why should we pay'!

 

IF it is such, should we persist with an inferior system just because the transition poses problems that need solving?

[Chagall]

Just now, IanD said:

 

Perhaps because going by things like blogs and forum posts only a minority of composters (like Peter) ever had the intention of using them to make compost?

 

They installed them because they were nice to use and convenient for them (no heavy cassette, no expensive pump-out), and because they could bin the waste for free, with no space or work needed to store/turn/tend compost heaps.

 

So the name isn't misleading for the minority who use them as the manufacturers intended, but is misleading for the majority who don't -- and it's these who are causing the waste disposal problem.

Yes, it has been said time and time again, but those without long term composting plans had been encouraged by C&RT in the first place, rightly or wrongly. Now it is needed to rethink and plan on a different strategy of dealing with it. Those without land need to do something and if C&RT wont allow such bins then the private companies may at least provide drop it in facilities elsewhere. Lots of possibilities. However it does need encouragement rather than disdain and a call for outright banning from the braying mob. 

[Idle Days]

Are we forgetting the problem of correctly disposing of the liquid side of the "composting" toilet, a much more frequent operation than the disposing of the solids.