C&RT say don't empty your compost toilet in our bins.

[Ronaldo47]

While it is practical for a single user of a bin to know what has previously been deposited,  someone depositing something in a communal bin has no way of knowing what or how much stuff of a particular category has already been dumped by others. Possibly the only way for Biffa to ensure that the 7kg limit was observed was to prohibit the deposit of any refuse of that category.

[Bargebuilder]

46 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Even after C&RTs announcent a very knowledgable and emminent forum member still said he would be (probably) bagging and binning whilst out cruising but would use the marina compost heap when in the home marina.

To support his claim that it was lawful he posted parts of the relevant act, which unfortunately showed that it was indeed unlawful to put more than 7kgs of 'Municipal offensive waste' (which includes human faeces) in the general waste bins.

 

 

The government advice is

	Examples	Waste status	Human healthcare	Animal healthcare
Healthcare offensive waste	Outer dressings and protective clothing like masks, gowns and gloves that are not contaminated with body fluids, and sterilised laboratory waste	Non-hazardous	18-01-04	18-02-03
Municipal offensive waste	Hygiene waste and sanitary protection like nappies and incontinence pads	Non-hazardous	20-01-99	20-01-99

 

You must segregate healthcare offensive waste from both clinical and mixed municipal wastes.

If you’ve produced more than 7kg of municipal offensive waste, or have more than one bag in a collection period, you must segregate it from any mixed municipal waste.

 

 

Irrespective of the legal aspects, if, in a commercial contract, Biffa say no 'offensive waste in our bins' they are entitled to do so.

 

 

 

I think in the end he decided to leave the forum because of the ear-ache he got about it.

 

 

 

Are you too saying that apart from a small minority of people who are sensitive to environmental matters, the ban is unlikely to be effective or enforceable?

[Midnight]

11 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

Are you too saying that apart from a small minority of people who are sensitive to environmental matters, the ban is unlikely to be effective or enforceable?

I think many of us think that even if we don't say it.

[Alan de Enfield]

45 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

Are you too saying that apart from a small minority of people who are sensitive to environmental matters, the ban is unlikely to be effective or enforceable?

 

It would only take one or two 'examples being made' of contravening the Transfer of Waste regulations and it would stop. But, without something as draconian as DNA testing I do not see how the culprits can be identified, and enforcement undertaken.

 

Once the bin providers remove their bins and ALL boaters become affected due to the lack of rubbish disposal facilities it is possible that peer-pressure would play a part - but again, who knows what is in that carrier bag being dumped in the bin in the middle of the night ?

 

The only way to make it effective and enforcable is to ensure / legislate for boats NOT to be allowed to have 'waterless / composting / separating toilets'. It is easy to do and does not require an Act of Parliament.

Humankind being 'what we are', those who feel they are entitled to do as they please will always do so if they can find a way around the rules. If a boat does not have a 'composting' toilet there is no need to 'bag & bin'.

 

"Never in the history of boating have the few had such a detrimental effect on the many", unfortunately the 'good' composters will suffer if the 'no composting toilets' rules are introduced.

Edited August 12, 2021 by Alan de Enfield

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

but again, who knows what is in that carrier bag being dumped in the bin in the middle of the night ?

 

Puzzling why anyone would go to the trouble of a night-time run to the bins when it could be just tipped in the cut. Perhaps they consider this as acting responsibly 🤣

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, MtB said:

 

Puzzling why anyone would go to the trouble of a night-time run to the bins when it could be just tipped in the cut. Perhaps they consider this as acting responsibly 🤣

 

Fine on a river, but on a stagnant canal maybe the 'floaters' would give the game away.

[MtB]

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Fine on a river, but on a stagnant canal maybe the 'floaters' would give the game away.

 

You could always blame the boat behind you....

 

OR.... put it in a carrier bag and hang it in a tree. Now where did I get THAT idea from???

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

You could always blame the boat behind you....

 

OR.... put it in a carrier bag and hang it in a tree. Now where did I get THAT idea from???

 

 

 

 

 

Have you been thru Todmordon ?

 

 

 

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

 

Have you been thru Todmordon ?

 

 

 

 

 

I can see you have!!

 

🤣

 

 

[Bargebuilder]

29 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

It would only take one or two 'examples being made' of contravening the Transfer of Waste regulations and it would stop. But, without something as draconian as DNA testing I do not see how the culprits can be identified, and enforcement undertaken.

 

Once the bin providers remove their bins and ALL boaters become affected due to the lack of rubbish disposal facilities it is possible that peer-pressure would play a part - but again, who knows what is in that carrier bag being dumped in the bin in the middle of the night ?

 

The only way to make it effective and enforcable is to ensure / legislate for boats NOT to be allowed to have 'waterless / composting / separating toilets'. It is easy to do and does not require an Act of Parliament.

Humankind being 'what we are', those who feel they are entitled to do as they please will always do so if they can find a way around the rules. If a boat does not have a 'composting' toilet there is no need to 'bag & bin'.

 

"Never in the history of boating have the few had such a detrimental effect on the many", unfortunately the 'good' composters will suffer if the 'no composting toilets' rules are introduced.

These are all good points, but if when you talk about the "detrimental effect on the many" you are referring to the possibility of all rubbish collection facilities being withdrawn, I don't believe that this could ever be allowed to happen. Certainly, the waste carrier could refuse to supply bins if it can't be guaranteed that they are free from bags of human waste, but since the C&RT would face mountains of rubbish and general pollution of their property if this were allowed to happen, would it not be likely that the C&RT would make some kind of provision for the collection of toilet waste to prevent this disaster, even though there would be a financial cost?

[Ianws]

If compost toilets are banned what are some people likely to do, if they have to install a cassette or reuse state pump out.  If not in a marina with facilities,  or not moving from their constant mooring ( that's quite a few people) and therefore not passing elsan or pump out points, what are people in those situations likely to do? If it doesn't go in a bin, where does it end up? Sorry for more questions than answers. 

[ditchcrawler]

12 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

These are all good points, but if when you talk about the "detrimental effect on the many" you are referring to the possibility of all rubbish collection facilities being withdrawn, I don't believe that this could ever be allowed to happen. Certainly, the waste carrier could refuse to supply bins if it can't be guaranteed that they are free from bags of human waste, but since the C&RT would face mountains of rubbish and general pollution of their property if this were allowed to happen, would it not be likely that the C&RT would make some kind of provision for the collection of toilet waste to prevent this disaster, even though there would be a financial cost?

The Broads Authority don't provide bins on the Broads

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

These are all good points, but if when you talk about the "detrimental effect on the many" you are referring to the possibility of all rubbish collection facilities being withdrawn, I don't believe that this could ever be allowed to happen. Certainly, the waste carrier could refuse to supply bins if it can't be guaranteed that they are free from bags of human waste, but since the C&RT would face mountains of rubbish and general pollution of their property if this were allowed to happen, would it not be likely that the C&RT would make some kind of provision for the collection of toilet waste to prevent this disaster, even though there would be a financial cost?

 

As I have said a number of times - stopping the use of bins to dump human faeces can very very easily be achieved, monitored and enforced. It will require no additional staff and no additional cost, but it requires the will to do it.

 

C&RT are not legally obliged to provide any services additional to the 'waterway', they provide toilets, elsans, waterpoints and rubbish bins as a 'gesture of goodwill'.

 

Under the various Acts of Parliament they are fully entitled to charge for these additional services.

 

If these services are removed, then any littering / dumping is not C&RTs responsibilty, yes it would be an awful mess, (and I doubt it would be allowed to happen) but it would not be C&RTs responsibility to clear it up.

 

At the end of the day, If the composting toilet owners cannot be trusted to comply with the Law (not C&RTs T&Cs, but the law of the land) then they will have to pay the price and either remove the boat from the water, or remove the toilet from the boat.

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Ianws said:

If compost toilets are banned what are some people likely to do, if they have to install a cassette or reuse state pump out.  If not in a marina with facilities,  or not moving from their constant mooring ( that's quite a few people) and therefore not passing elsan or pump out points, what are people in those situations likely to do? If it doesn't go in a bin, where does it end up? Sorry for more questions than answers. 

 

A question back to you ...........

 

What did boaters do before the fad of composting toilets hit the waterways ?

They have only been around for a very few years, so how did they previously empty the cassette or the pump-out ?

 

I'd suggest that when they move the boat every few days to refill with water, they could take the opportunity to empty the 'potty'

 

[Ianws]

But we keep hearing about certain boats in certain places that  never move and also how they are probably more likely to have adopted compost toilets. Just because people used to travel to empty the loo in the past doesn't mean they will now, especially if they might lose their mooring. Bottled water is cheap, so why move all the time. 

[IanD]

43 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

These are all good points, but if when you talk about the "detrimental effect on the many" you are referring to the possibility of all rubbish collection facilities being withdrawn, I don't believe that this could ever be allowed to happen. Certainly, the waste carrier could refuse to supply bins if it can't be guaranteed that they are free from bags of human waste, but since the C&RT would face mountains of rubbish and general pollution of their property if this were allowed to happen, would it not be likely that the C&RT would make some kind of provision for the collection of toilet waste to prevent this disaster, even though there would be a financial cost?

 

Why should the vast majority of boaters (more than 35000) pay to have the uncomposted poo of a small minority (less than 700) dealt with, when they're doing something that CART told them was not the way that composting toilets should be used?

 

(but was then stupid enough via poor wording to give them a bag'n'bin loophole instead of actually stopping this)

 

Because that's what "a financial cost" really means -- money for CART doesn't grow on trees, it comes from (among other sources) boaters, and money spent on this is money that isn't spent on things like maintenance.

 

If the composting toilet users paid the extra cost of disposal themselves then I'm sure nobody else would complain, but they would complain since this would cost them at least as much -- probably more -- than pumpouts.

 

Hands up all the composting toilet users who would pay £15 a go (same as a pumpout) to have their waste taken away and dealt with. How about a more realistic £30 a go? No takers?

 

If they don't want to do this (and can't or won't compost the waste properly), what's stopping them doing what everyone else does (and they used to do before composting toilets became available) and using either pumpouts or cassettes and the existing sewage disposal facilities?

Edited August 12, 2021 by IanD

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, Ianws said:

But we keep hearing about certain boats in certain places that  never move and also how they are probably more likely to have adopted compost toilets. Just because people used to travel to empty the loo in the past doesn't mean they will now, especially if they might lose their mooring. Bottled water is cheap, so why move all the time. 

 

Assume you are referring to the likes of London.

 

If they are on a permanent mooring (which was your suggestion) then they can move without fear of losing their spot'.

 

If they are in contravention of their licence and are permanently moored on a 14 day mooring (and, could lose their spot if they move), then they deserve everything they get, and they should have enforcement taken against them.

[IanD]

19 minutes ago, Ianws said:

But we keep hearing about certain boats in certain places that  never move and also how they are probably more likely to have adopted compost toilets. Just because people used to travel to empty the loo in the past doesn't mean they will now, especially if they might lose their mooring. Bottled water is cheap, so why move all the time. 

They'll have to change their toilet ways after December.

12 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Assume you are referring to the likes of London.

 

If they are on a permanent mooring (which was your suggestion) then they can move without fear of losing their spot'.

 

If they are in contravention of their licence and are permanently moored on a 14 day mooring (and, could lose their spot if they move), then they deserve everything they get, and they should have enforcement taken against them.

If they're on a permanent mooring they presumably have enough space landside to properly compost their waste, so why aren't they doing this? If they can't (or won't), they shouldn't have a composting toilet after December.

Edited August 12, 2021 by IanD

[Bargebuilder]

13 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

If these services are removed, then any littering / dumping is not C&RTs responsibilty, yes it would be an awful mess, (and I doubt it would be allowed to happen) but it would not be C&RTs responsibility to clear it up.

It would certainly be an awful mess and environmentally damaging and it may not be the C&RTs responsibility, and like you I cannot believe that it would be allowed to happen, but if not the C&RT, who would face having to pay the bill for the big clear up. 

 

It may be more likely that the C&RT would not run the risk of withdrawing (or having it withdrawn) their rubbish collection/removal service, but instead would make available a compost' removal service for vegetable and toilet waste to keep this component out of the general waste.

 

[Ianws]

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Assume you are referring to the likes of London.

 

If they are on a permanent mooring (which was your suggestion) then they can move without fear of losing their spot'.

 

If they are in contravention of their licence and are permanently moored on a 14 day mooring (and, could lose their spot if they move), then they deserve everything they get, and they should have enforcement taken against them.

Should perhaps,  but does it currently happen, or is jt realistic to expect it in the future?   I'm not in that area so I'm only basing my comments on observations from people who have experience of the situation.

[IanD]

2 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

It would certainly be an awful mess and environmentally damaging and it may not be the C&RTs responsibility, and like you I cannot believe that it would be allowed to happen, but if not the C&RT, who would face having to pay the bill for the big clear up. 

 

It may be more likely that the C&RT would not run the risk of withdrawing (or having it withdrawn) their rubbish collection/removal service, but instead would make available a compost' removal service for vegetable and toilet waste to keep this component out of the general waste.

 

Why should they, when it's far cheaper (where do you suggest the money would come from?) and easier to just ban composting toilets?

 

Do you by any chance have a composting toilet and no proper compost heaps?

 

Because it sounds awfully like what you really want -- but refuse to come out straight and say -- is for "somebody else" to pay to fix the problem the bag'n'binners have created...

Edited August 12, 2021 by IanD

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Bargebuilder said:

It may be more likely that the C&RT would not run the risk of withdrawing (or having it withdrawn) their rubbish collection/removal service, but instead would make available a compost' removal service for vegetable and toilet waste to keep this component out of the general waste.

 

I don't think so. not only would the cost become prohibitive as there would need to be a 'crap-bin' at EVERY bin-site whether it was used or not, and C&RT would be paying every week for it to sit there used or not, how would the bin provider know when a bin was filling up ?

They would have to go every week, in the lorry (a different lorry to the general waste lorry) to see if it needed emptying.

Do you only provide bins in areas of high occupany of CMers ? Then what about the rest of the country ?

 

When the 'normal' bins are full, they 'crap-bins' will suddenly become full of old oil, plastic, and the usual boaters rubbish'.

Time after time it had been evidenced there there are a number of boaters who are unable to be trusted to do the 'right thing'. Why would they change now ?

[ditchcrawler]

30 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

I'd suggest that when they move the boat every few days to refill with water, they could take the opportunity to empty the 'potty'

 

Some are now fitting extra tanks and also filters so they don't need to move just to get water.

[David Mack]

31 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

If these services are removed, then any littering / dumping is not C&RTs responsibilty, yes it would be an awful mess, (and I doubt it would be allowed to happen) but it would not be C&RTs responsibility to clear it up.

 

Actually in most cases it is CRT's responsibility to clear it up. If waste is fly tipped (which is what littering/dumping amounts to), then it is the land owner's responsibility to clear up the mess. And in most cases boaters dumping their rubbish would be doing so on CRT's land.

Which is why CRT won't withdraw most refuse facilities. They face the costs either way, and it is generally cheaper to deal with it when the stuff is mostly dumped at specific locations, rather than scattered across the whole CRT network.

[Ianws]

I just think that if compost toilets are banned a lot of the stuff from cassettes ain't going to end up in a  Elsan for various reasons. Take you pick where it ends up.