C&RT say don't empty your compost toilet in our bins.

[D Ash]

What, ultimately, causes more damage to the environment.  The contents of the toilet tank or the contents of the fuel tank ?

[Alan de Enfield]

9 minutes ago, D Ash said:

What, ultimately, causes more damage to the environment.  The contents of the toilet tank or the contents of the fuel tank ?

 

The thread is about Composting toilets which do not have a 'tank' therefore not sure of the rellevance.

 

Everyone needs to produce 'sewage', but the use of diesel is discretionary,

[Bargebuilder]

9 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

The thread is about Composting toilets which do not have a 'tank' therefore not sure of the rellevance.

 

Everyone needs to produce 'sewage', but the use of diesel is discretionary,

As you say, it's not a question for this thread, but the proportion of narrowboaters who's engines run on diesel is not much lower than the proportion of narrowboaters who produce sewage!

[David Mack]

6 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

In the mid 60s I worked at a camping and caravaning site and we had a scout group stay, their first question is where can we dig the latrines,

 

At the Droitwich Dig in 1973, the first big volunteer input on the canal's restoration, with visiting volunteers from all over the country, I followed the signs for the gents toilet, which was located behind a canvas screen. A large circular pit had been dug, with near vertical sides, and the whole thing was surrounded by the canvas screen barrier about 6 feet from the edge of the pit. And all round this hole there were blokes standing with their flies undone, pissing into the hole, which was half full of liquid. My surprise at this act of communal urination was compounded by the fear that the bank might give way at any time!

[Momac]

9 hours ago, David Mack said:

 

At the Droitwich Dig in 1973, the first big volunteer input on the canal's restoration, with visiting volunteers from all over the country, I followed the signs for the gents toilet, which was located behind a canvas screen. A large circular pit had been dug, with near vertical sides, and the whole thing was surrounded by the canvas screen barrier about 6 feet from the edge of the pit. And all round this hole there were blokes standing with their flies undone, pissing into the hole, which was half full of liquid. My surprise at this act of communal urination was compounded by the fear that the bank might give way at any time!

Thankfully health and safety practices  have improved over the half century since then.

[Mad Harold]

Some years ago when I was involved with light aircraft,Hucknall airfield toilet was a screen against the boundary hedge.

When it started to pong a bit,the screen was moved along a few yards.

[Chewbacka]

2 hours ago, Mad Harold said:

Some years ago when I was involved with light aircraft,Hucknall airfield toilet was a screen against the boundary hedge.

When it started to pong a bit,the screen was moved along a few yards.

But I doubt anyone was crapping under the hedge.

[Alan de Enfield]

I wonder if the new company that will be handling 'hazardous waste' have included partly composted human faeces ?

I wonder if C&RT have this time read the contract to see what is, and what is not allowed ?

 

From NBW

 

 

 

The trust dumps Biffa

 PUBLISHED: THURSDAY, 05 AUGUST 2021

THE Canal & River Trust has dumped the rubbish collection company Biffa.

It has now awarded Reconomy the waterways contract for not only collection of general waste but also to manage the collection, processing, and disposal of hazardous waste materials across the waterways, Alan Tilbury reports.

Introduce a range

Under the contract terms Reconomy tells it will introduce a range of waste management services and systems to safeguard against the impact of hazardous waste, improving the experiences of all those using Britain’s waterways.

The company will take over the sites previously operated by Biffa, that caused a great many complaints over its management of the rubbish sites, with them often overflowing with rubbish and rubbish even left after collection.

Would not take our rubbish

The above photograph shows the Biffa site at the junction of the Shropshire Union with the Staffs & Worcs, when we were taking the dog for a walk in the neighbouring woods, but realised there was no way it would take our rubbish.

Mooring overnight we saw the Biffa lorry arrive to empty the bins, and so we took the opportunity to empty our rubbish but were amazed to see the state of the disposal site, as shown in this second photograph. 

Many boaters have complained of the overflowing rubbish at that company's sites, so it is hoped things will now improve.

[Bargebuilder]

42 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I wonder if the new company that will be handling 'hazardous waste' have included partly composted human faeces ?

I wonder if C&RT have this time read the contract to see what is, and what is not allowed ?

 

From NBW

 

 

 

The trust dumps Biffa

 PUBLISHED: THURSDAY, 05 AUGUST 2021

THE Canal & River Trust has dumped the rubbish collection company Biffa.

It has now awarded Reconomy the waterways contract for not only collection of general waste but also to manage the collection, processing, and disposal of hazardous waste materials across the waterways, Alan Tilbury reports.

Introduce a range

Under the contract terms Reconomy tells it will introduce a range of waste management services and systems to safeguard against the impact of hazardous waste, improving the experiences of all those using Britain’s waterways.

The company will take over the sites previously operated by Biffa, that caused a great many complaints over its management of the rubbish sites, with them often overflowing with rubbish and rubbish even left after collection.

Would not take our rubbish

The above photograph shows the Biffa site at the junction of the Shropshire Union with the Staffs & Worcs, when we were taking the dog for a walk in the neighbouring woods, but realised there was no way it would take our rubbish.

Mooring overnight we saw the Biffa lorry arrive to empty the bins, and so we took the opportunity to empty our rubbish but were amazed to see the state of the disposal site, as shown in this second photograph. 

Many boaters have complained of the overflowing rubbish at that company's sites, so it is hoped things will now improve.

Surely they will: the change may even have been a result of Biffa refusing to offer a solution to the problem of slightly composted toilet waste.

[David Mack]

45 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I wonder if the new company that will be handling 'hazardous waste' have included partly composted human faeces ?

I wonder if C&RT have this time read the contract to see what is, and what is not allowed ?

It wouldn't surprise me if CRT's change of stance on compost toilets hadn't arisen from the discussions about the new contract. Reconomy presumably want to be clear about whether they are pricing for dealing with poo bags or not.

[MtB]

51 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I wonder if C&RT have this time read the contract to see what is, and what is not allowed ?

 

 

More specifically and relating to the mess in the photos, does the new contract require the Reconomy bin-emptying team to not only empty the bins but to pick up all the crap left by boaters on the ground around the bins and have a general sweep up and tidy up of the bin area?

 

Or is the contract still to "empty the bins only and ignore any rubbish spilled out or piled up by boaters around them because they were already full"? I think this is a different problem from that of hazardous waste.

Edited August 7, 2021 by MtB

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

More specifically and relating to the mess in the photos, does the new contract require the Reconomy bin-emptying team to not only empty the bins but to pick up all the crap left by boaters on the ground around the bins and have a general sweep up and tidy up of the bin area?

 

Or is the contract still to "empty the bins only and ignore any rubbish spilled out or piled up by boaters around them because they were already full"? I think this is a different problem from that of hazardous waste.

 

Our contract with Biffa specifically states that anything not in the bin will not be collected, it also says that the bin lid must be properly closed (ie not over full) but the driver is 'well looked after' so we do occasionally get away with that.

Not only do we have to pay the 'rental / emptying cost' of the bins but the full bin is weighed, and weighed again when empty and we are charged 20p + VAT per kg for the waste as part of the waste disposal Tax.

[Bargebuilder]

When the C&RT instructed the users of composting toilets to place their contents into their bins, they couldn't have imagined how quickly this practice would have become popular with the resultant huge increase in the numbers of boaters who have converted and who I would guess would never go back.

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

When the C&RT instructed the users of composting toilets to place their contents into their bins, they couldn't have imagined how quickly this practice would have become popular with the resultant huge increase in the numbers of boaters who have converted and who I would guess would never go back.

 

 

 

The Transfer of waste legislation limits the the amount of such waste to 7kgs per bin, AND it must be put in special tiger-striped bags to aid separation.

Specific bins would be needed for the human-poo-bags but they will of course be abused if the other bins are full. 

 

If this new company are planning to allow human-poo-bags I wonder how it will be 'handled' ?

 

 

The government advice is

	Examples	Waste status	Human healthcare	Animal healthcare
Healthcare offensive waste	Outer dressings and protective clothing like masks, gowns and gloves that are not contaminated with body fluids, and sterilised laboratory waste	Non-hazardous	18-01-04	18-02-03
Municipal offensive waste	Hygiene waste and sanitary protection like nappies and incontinence pads	Non-hazardous	20-01-99	20-01-99

You must segregate healthcare offensive waste from both clinical and mixed municipal wastes.

If you’ve produced more than 7kg of municipal offensive waste, or have more than one bag in a collection period, you must segregate it from any mixed municipal waste.

If you’ve produced less, you can dispose of your municipal offensive waste in your mixed municipal waste (‘black bag’). Use classification code 20-03-01.

 

thats from

https://www.gov.uk/how-to-classify-different-types-of-waste/healthcare-and-related-wastes

 

Edited August 7, 2021 by Alan de Enfield

[MtB]

11 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

When the C&RT instructed the users of composting toilets to place their contents into their bins, they couldn't have imagined how quickly this practice would have become popular with the resultant huge increase in the numbers of boaters who have converted and who I would guess would never go back.

 

 

 

I disagree, I think it is easy to imagine how popular separating bogs were going to become once CRT suggested the solids could be just slung in the Biffa bins like bags of dog poo. 

[Bargebuilder]

 

8 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

I disagree, I think it is easy to imagine how popular separating bogs were going to become once CRT suggested the solids could be just slung in the Biffa bins like bags of dog poo. 

I am actually in full agreement with you, that the C&RT encouraged to proliferation of composting toilets by their releases to press. 

20 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

If this new company are planning to allow human-poo-bags I wonder how it will be 'handled' ?

 

 

 

 

With great care!

[MtB]

1 minute ago, Bargebuilder said:

 

I am actually in full agreement with you, that the C&RT encouraged to proliferation of composting toilets by their releases to press. 

 

Yes, I think someone at CRT who only ever works at a desk was misled by the "green"-sounding term "composting toilet".

 

It was then decreed they must be a Good Thing and to be encouraged (because they sound a bit "green") as this is the sort of 'right-on' thing nice middle class office staff tend to latch onto.

 

Never was it considered or understood the pressure CCers would find themselves under to quickly dispose of unpleasant buckets off poo due to the impracticality of collecting them and actually composting them on their boats for a couple of years.

 

Hence my policy of only ever describing them as "separating toilets", not "composting toilets". Might you perhaps consider doing the same?!

[Bargebuilder]

5 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

Hence my policy of only ever describing them as "separating toilets", not "composting toilets". Might you perhaps consider doing the same?!

I use both terms regularly, slipping seamlessly between them. 

 

To be fair to the C&RT, in their publication to 'separating' toilet owners, they did refer to the product as partly composted and a number of people on this forum seem to be able to manage at least that level of decomposition. Of course, they will be in the minority since the C&RT effectively encouraged 'separating' toilet owners to not bother even trying to store and compost.

[Alan de Enfield]

26 minutes ago, MtB said:

Hence my policy of only ever describing them as "separating toilets", not "composting toilets". Might you perhaps consider doing the same?!

 

A very good point, a 'composting toilet' is no such thing as it would be unable to hold 2 or 3 years 'production' to allow full composting, and there would always be 'fresh' on top of the heap.

 

It is simply an aid to the start of the composting process in that it separates solids and liquids to allow onward treatment.

If that onward treatment simply means throwing it in a bin, then the £1000 for a special bucket could be saved by just peeing in a bottle and tipping it under a hedge, and crapping in a big doggy bag, saving the bags in a bucket until you pass a bin, and depositing them there.

 

Edit to add - with the threat of war in the early 60's every child was taught at School "Protect and Survive" with regular educational TV programmes, leaflets and in school presentation from the Civil Defence.

 

Make your own toilet for use in your 'safe room' (bunker) was a crucial piece of training for survival :

 

 

 

Edited August 7, 2021 by Alan de Enfield

[tree monkey]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

A very good point, a 'composting toilet' is no such thing as it would be unable to hold 2 or 3 years 'production' to allow full composting, and there would always be 'fresh' on top of the heap.

 

It is simply an aid to the start of the composting process in that it separates solids and liquids to allow onward treatment.

If that onward treatment simply means throwing it in a bin, then the £1000 for a special bucket could be saved by just peeing in a bottle and tipping it under a hedge, and crapping in a big doggy bag, saving the bags in a bucket until you pass a bin, and depositing them there.

I have spoken to one or two who seem to be able to actually compost the waste properly, they certainly seem to get it up to a sufficient temperature to imply there is composting biological activity going on.

What I can't quite understand is composting, hot or cold, produces waste itself, generally fluid and gas, and I don't quite see how that's managed in a closed system used on a boat, it's fine in a land based heap because it, the fluids particularly, just drain back into the underlying soil.

The thing is, separating toilets aren't the easy answer they were being advertised as, the waste needs management, different to elsan or pump out type management,  but management nonetheless and I suspect many people were caught out by this

 

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, tree monkey said:

The thing is, separating toilets aren't the easy answer they were being advertised as

 

But like for many things, having bought and installed one, very few would admit to having made a mistake.

[Bargebuilder]

15 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

A very good point, a 'composting toilet' is no such thing as it would be unable to hold 2 or 3 years 'production' to allow full composting, and there would always be 'fresh' on top of the heap.

 

It is simply an aid to the start of the composting process in that it separates solids and liquids to allow onward treatment.

If that onward treatment simply means throwing it in a bin, then the £1000 for a special bucket could be saved by just peeing in a bottle and tipping it under a hedge, and crapping in a big doggy bag, saving the bags in a bucket until you pass a bin, and depositing them there.

Composting is a process, not an end result. Given a mix of organic matter,  moisture, warmth and air, it's almost impossible to stop it from composting. Of course composting toilets don't produce finished compost, but show me any manufacturer that says their product can. That doesn't mean that the process of composting doesn't start in the toilet, so the toilet is 'composting', but not to anything like completion.

 

It is possible to build your own separating toilet for not much more than £100, the bit that does the actual separating being available for less than £50. Home built loos can have a much bigger receptacle, 20l or more, that not only lasts for many, many weeks, but the increased volume of material also makes the composting process more successful and complete.

[David Mack]

I met a boater recently who proudly told me about his new composting loo. When I asked him how he was going to cope with the forthcoming ban he told me that CRT wouldn't know what was in the supermarket carrier bags he dumps in their bins. He then went on to tell me he has rigged up a pump to transfer the contents of his urine bottle to the outlet of the bathroom wash basin!

I suspect he is not alone in his attitude, and CRT are eventually going to be forced into taking more steps to deal with non-composting 'composters'.

[Bargebuilder]

24 minutes ago, tree monkey said:

 

What I can't quite understand is composting, hot or cold, produces waste itself, generally fluid and gas, and I don't quite see how that's managed in a closed system used on a boat, it's fine in a land based heap because it, the fluids particularly, just drain back into the underlying soil.

 

 

How refreshing to have a genuine question from someone who wants to understand.

 

Composting requires moisture to occur, but somewhat less than there is in a 'fresh deposit', but the fan that creates a negative pressure within the toilet, creates air movement that aids evaporation and then removes it from the container. This negative pressure holds the answer to your second question, where does the gas or smell go. The fan that sucks the smell from the loo passes it through an activated charcoal filter if the outlet is remain inside the boat, or it can be vented to the outside where any smell quickly dissipates.

[tree monkey]

37 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

How refreshing to have a genuine question from someone who wants to understand.

 

Composting requires moisture to occur, but somewhat less than there is in a 'fresh deposit', but the fan that creates a negative pressure within the toilet, creates air movement that aids evaporation and then removes it from the container. This negative pressure holds the answer to your second question, where does the gas or smell go. The fan that sucks the smell from the loo passes it through an activated charcoal filter if the outlet is remain inside the boat, or it can be vented to the outside where any smell quickly dissipates.

That's not composting that's desiccating, I understand how that happens, it's the practicalities of actually composting on a boat once the initial stage has happy