C&RT say don't empty your compost toilet in our bins.

[Bargebuilder]

16 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Perhaps we should call them what they are "crapping in a bucket half-full of wood shaving toilets" 

It's not a catchy title, but if it pleases you. 

 

The fact remains that separating loos are infinitely nicer to deal with than cassette toilets. Had both types of toilet been introduced at the same time there is no possibility that the cassette toilet would have survived. I've never heard of anyone who changed from an Elsan toilet to separating loo and regrets it.

 

Yes, the problem of onward composting/disposal needs to be solved, but the solution is simple and inexpensive given the will to do so.

 

I suspect that the CRT has left it too late to reverse the trend towards switching to separating toilets. People now own them, love them and are enthusing about them to their friends. Perhaps it's time to accept that they are here to stay and to make proper provision for handling the waste produced.

 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

I suspect that the CRT has left it too late to reverse the trend towards switching to separating toilets. People now own them, love them and are enthusing about them to their friends. Perhaps it's time to accept that they are here to stay and to make proper provision for handling the waste produced.

 

 

BW managed to get 'sea-toilets' forbidden (via the BSS) and with currently a very very small percentage of Inland waterways boaters having composting toilets they still have time to act, if that is their intention.

 

Out of 80,000+ boats registered on the Inland waterways, any idea how many have composting toilets ?

My guesstimate would be well under 1000.

In a survey only 80 boaters said they had one.

[Bargebuilder]

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

BW managed to get 'sea-toilets' forbidden (via the BSS) and with currently a very very small percentage of Inland waterways boaters having composting toilets they still have time to act, if that is their intention.

Are you sure about that? It was my understanding that providing there is a closeable sea cock between any sea toilet and the skin fitting, a boat won't fail it's BSS inspection. 

 

The BSS inspector that did my boat didn't even look at the toilet or even go into the heads for that matter.

 

I suspect, in the unlikely event that composting toilets were banned, that boaters would simply swap their composter for a cassette toilet for the duration of the examination.

[PeterF]

From the latest CRT boaters update.

 

A start-up business providing a ‘doorstep’ collection service for boaters of composting toilet waste has started on the East London canal network. The Trust is providing funding to Circular Revolution to operate the service for a year-long pilot, to help boaters observe forthcoming restrictions 

 

Circular Revolution now provides regular scheduled collections, picking up bagged organic waste from collection caddies, every two weeks. The service also provides a 17 litre collection caddy, and compostable bags to use in the caddies.There is also an ad-hoc ‘pay as you poo’ service which can be ordered for larger volumes (up to 25 litres). The waste is safely transformed into soil conditioner for improving soil health, by an ISO registered facility.

 

 The regular fortnightly collections are ordered as a block of three months, equalling six collections, and costs £50. The ad hoc one-off collection is £25.

 

The full article can be found at What to do with your number two (if you’re in London)

[Chagall]

11 minutes ago, PeterF said:

From the latest CRT boaters update.

 

A start-up business providing a ‘doorstep’ collection service for boaters of composting toilet waste has started on the East London canal network. The Trust is providing funding to Circular Revolution to operate the service for a year-long pilot, to help boaters observe forthcoming restrictions 

 

Circular Revolution now provides regular scheduled collections, picking up bagged organic waste from collection caddies, every two weeks. The service also provides a 17 litre collection caddy, and compostable bags to use in the caddies.There is also an ad-hoc ‘pay as you poo’ service which can be ordered for larger volumes (up to 25 litres). The waste is safely transformed into soil conditioner for improving soil health, by an ISO registered facility.

 

 The regular fortnightly collections are ordered as a block of three months, equalling six collections, and costs £50. The ad hoc one-off collection is £25.

 

The full article can be found at What to do with your number two (if you’re in London)

That was what I was thinking of when I mentioned that C&RT had begun such a pilot scheme, so thanks for adding the link. I see now though that it isn't actually C&RT but a separate business that is operating with approval. 

 

The enterprising firm or rival companies could be shovelling a considerable sum but only if the spread of dry toilets on boats is as expected. 

[Jerra]

11 hours ago, Alway Swilby said:

 There are lots of assumptions about composting toilets (and I wish they weren't called composting because they don't compost but we seem to be stuck with the name) made on this forum by people who have no experience of them at all. 

I have just had a google for separating toilets and the three or four I looked at (including well known brands like separett) describe them as composting so clearly they think differently.

[Bargebuilder]

15 minutes ago, Jerra said:

I have just had a google for separating toilets and the three or four I looked at (including well known brands like separett) describe them as composting so clearly they think differently.

Strictly speaking, these toilets are indeed composting, I think the point being made is that they aren't really capable of producing 'finished' compost without additional storage. Any organic matter will start to compost if warm and moist and oxygenated from the moment it's 'deposited'.

[MtB]

28 minutes ago, Jerra said:

I have just had a google for separating toilets and the three or four I looked at (including well known brands like separett) describe them as composting so clearly they think differently.

 

"Composting toilet" is undoubtedly a misnomer because composting does not happen in the toilet appliance. It fills up too fast and the solids have to be removed and dealt with elsewhere

 

"Separating toilet" seems a much more accurate description give all they do is separate the solids from the liquids. Once separated by the toilet, the solids have to be dealt with away from the toilet, and can be disposed of by one of the following methods. 

 

1) Composting in the garden compost heap, or

2) Composting in a bucket for a year or two, then I'm not sure what

2) Desiccating for several months then putting CRT bins, or

3) Putting straight in the CRT bins after a token storage period of a few days or weeks, or 

4) Paying to have it collected monthly by Circular Revolution Ltd.

 

The next debate will be what happens to all the urine separated out by these toilets. Does it really all go in the elsans? 

Edited August 2, 2021 by MtB

[Bargebuilder]

1 hour ago, PeterF said:

From the latest CRT boaters update.

 

A start-up business providing a ‘doorstep’ collection service for boaters of composting toilet waste has started on the East London canal network. The Trust is providing funding to Circular Revolution to operate the service for a year-long pilot, to help boaters observe forthcoming restrictions 

 

Circular Revolution now provides regular scheduled collections, picking up bagged organic waste from collection caddies, every two weeks. The service also provides a 17 litre collection caddy, and compostable bags to use in the caddies.There is also an ad-hoc ‘pay as you poo’ service which can be ordered for larger volumes (up to 25 litres). The waste is safely transformed into soil conditioner for improving soil health, by an ISO registered facility.

 

 The regular fortnightly collections are ordered as a block of three months, equalling six collections, and costs £50. The ad hoc one-off collection is £25.

 

The full article can be found at What to do with your number two (if you’re in London)

What a fantastic idea, I hope it takes off.

 

I wonder if it could work nationwide.

 

To expect a company to go to boats moored in widely spaced out and remote locations may not make economic sense.

 

From the point of view of this new company, especially if the service needs to operate across the country, wouldn't it be better to get the boaters to take their offerings to central collection points? Maybe composting hubs could be made at current CRT sanitary stations: there are 220 of them, they are easily and efficiently accessible by road and we are all used to using them.

 

 

[IanD]

Maybe people should read back through the thread instead of bringing back the same old arguments over and over again?

 

CART never *encouraged* the use of composting toilets. The very first sentence in their rules about them always said that -- as the name suggests -- the waste should be properly composted and used/disposed of on land. The next sentence used to say that if you couldn't do this it was *permissible* to double-bag it and put it in the waste bins. Now it says this won't be allowed after December.

 

Most people who installed a composting toilet read the second sentence and ignored the first one, except a minority of users like Peter who did it properly. The surveys show that there are a few hundred bag'n'binners clamouring for CART to either change their minds and allow them to continue (which CART can't do) or put a network of disposal bins in place. They want everyone to pay for this because otherwise they'd have to pay as much or more as pumpouts (see the costs from Circular Revolution), and they don't want to do this because one reason they installed them was to save the cost of pumpouts.

 

No demonisation of composting users here, just facts.

 

Edited August 2, 2021 by IanD

[Midnight]

20 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

Strictly speaking, these toilets are indeed composting, I think the point being made is that they aren't really capable of producing 'finished' compost without additional storage. Any organic matter will start to compost if warm and moist and oxygenated from the moment it's 'deposited'.

Actually it's not at all a composting toilet. Maybe the solids get composted down over a long time elsewhere, but what about the yellow stuff doesn't that just get tipped into the canal.  I suspect there would be a big outcry if all us chaps installed urinals with outlets to skin fittings. If it gets tipped into an Elsan then a cassette would be a better choice anyway.

[Alan de Enfield]

10 hours ago, Bargebuilder said:

Are you sure about that? It was my understanding that providing there is a closeable sea cock between any sea toilet and the skin fitting, a boat won't fail it's BSS inspection. 

 

That is correct and is a requirement - if there is no valve or diverter to a tank then the boat is a BSS failure. The USE of sea-toilets is banned.

It is assumed that boaters will be responsible and not use the sea-toilet, but we know that is unlikely to happen and that is why the RCD (yes I know, I mentioning it again) has a requirement that all boats must be fitted with a 'tank' to hold black water and that toilets must empty into that tank and then it can be pumped out.

 

It is another example of the waste of time and money that the BSS is - boaters simply open the valve once the BSS is completed.

 

Another move is that 'grey water' will soon need to be retained in a tank and pumped out as per black-water, and is already law in some countries.

[Bargebuilder]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

That is correct and is a requirement - if there is no valve or diverter to a tank then the boat is a BSS failure. The USE of sea-toilets is banned.

It is assumed that boaters will be responsible and not use the sea-toilet, but we know that is unlikely to happen and that is why the RCD (yes I know, I mentioning it again) has a requirement that all boats must be fitted with a 'tank' to hold black water and that toilets must empty into that tank and then it can be pumped out.

 

It is another example of the waste of time and money that the BSS is - boaters simply open the valve once the BSS is completed.

 

Another move is that 'grey water' will soon need to be retained in a tank and pumped out as per black-water, and is already law in some countries.

So sea toilets aren't in fact banned at all, it's their use that's banned.

 

Was it you who mentioned that there are a number of rivers including the Nene and did you say the Thames, that allowed the pumping of toilet waste directly over the side so long as you don't live on board and are a leisure only boater? If that is correct then sea toilets couldn't really be banned if they are allowed to be used.

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

Was it you who mentioned that there are a number of rivers

 

Indeed it was, and I posted the legislation showing it was allowed.

What 'law takes priority' ?

 

An Act of Parlaiment or the BSS ?

 

To get your boat licence you need a BSS, to get the BSS you need to have your sea-toilet closed off.

 

Presumably opening your overboard discharge valve invalidates your BSS.

 

Maybe you can see why I give the BSS little credence and question its value.

[Bargebuilder]

8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Another move is that 'grey water' will soon need to be retained in a tank and pumped out as per black-water, and is already law in some countries.

If or when that happens it will be a huge boost to the conversion to 'composting' toilets from pump-outs. To retro-fit a second large tank for grey water in most narrowboats would be difficult or impossible or very expensive at least, so it would make sense to use the blackwater tank for grey water and change from a pump-out flushing loo to a composter. 

 

The urine, being almost sterile, could perhaps be directed to the grey water tank. That would depend on what happens to the grey water once you've paid to have it pumped out.

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Maybe you can see why I give the BSS little credence and question its value.

In fairness to the BSS, with all its limitations, it's probably saved lives by reducing the number of dodgy gas installations.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Bargebuilder said:

If or when that happens it will be a huge boost to the conversion to 'composting' toilets from pump-outs. To retro-fit a second large tank for grey water in most narrowboats would be difficult or impossible or very expensive at least,

 

Indeed.

 

My current boat is not a NB it is a GRP cruiser and was built in the UK in 2003 and was built 'future-proofed' as it has both Black and Grey water tanks.

 

Both 'sink / shower water' and toilet water go into their respective tanks and I can either have a 'vaccum pump-out' in a marina, or can open the discharge valves and dump both at sea.

[Bargebuilder]

13 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Indeed.

 

My current boat is not a NB it is a GRP cruiser and was built in the UK in 2003 and was built 'future-proofed' as it has both Black and Grey water tanks.

 

Both 'sink / shower water' and toilet water go into their respective tanks and I can either have a 'vaccum pump-out' in a marina, or can open the discharge valves and dump both at sea.

An ideal situation if you are tidal or on a river that allows pump-out over the side, but what capacity have your two tanks, as GRPs aren't often blessed with big tanks, making expensive trips to the pump-out station frequent?

[Steilsteven]

29 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Indeed it was, and I posted the legislation showing it was allowed.

What 'law takes priority' ?

 

An Act of Parlaiment or the BSS ?

 

To get your boat licence you need a BSS, to get the BSS you need to have your sea-toilet closed off.

 

Presumably opening your overboard discharge valve invalidates your BSS.

 

Maybe you can see why I give the BSS little credence and question its value.

It used to be ( and probably still is ) that any boat arriving at Teddington lock had to declare that if had a sea toilet ,whereupon it would be sealed by the lock staff before it was allowed to continue onto the non tidal Thames.

 

Keith

[Steilsteven]

1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

"Composting toilet" is undoubtedly a misnomer because composting does not happen in the toilet appliance. It fills up too fast and the solids have to be removed and dealt with elsewhere

 

"Separating toilet" seems a much more accurate description give all they do is separate the solids from the liquids. Once separated by the toilet, the solids have to be dealt with away from the toilet, and can be disposed of by one of the following methods. 

 

1) Composting in the garden compost heap, or

2) Composting in a bucket for a year or two, then I'm not sure what

2) Desiccating for several months then putting CRT bins, or

3) Putting straight in the CRT bins after a token storage period of a few days or weeks, or 

4) Paying to have it collected monthly by Circular Revolution Ltd.

 

The next debate will be what happens to all the urine separated out by these toilets. Does it really all go in the elsans? 

We drink it of course! Have you never heard of Bear Grylls?

 

Keith

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, Midnight said:

Actually it's not at all a composting toilet. Maybe the solids get composted down over a long time elsewhere, but what about the yellow stuff doesn't that just get tipped into the canal.  I suspect there would be a big outcry if all us chaps installed urinals with outlets to skin fittings. If it gets tipped into an Elsan then a cassette would be a better choice anyway.

It gets poured onto the grass, its full of nutrients 

[IanD]

9 minutes ago, peterboat said:

It gets poured onto the grass, its full of nutrients 

As has been pointed out several times, you're one of the minority of composting toilet owners who uses it as intended, and kudos to you for finding an eco-friendly solution to the boat toilet problem.

 

But unfortunately you and your mates who do the same aren't typical, the vast majority of composting toilet owners -- and this comes from the Facebook survey, not guesswork -- are bag'n'binners, and it's them who have caused the problem for CART.

Edited August 2, 2021 by IanD

[Ronaldo47]

In the 1970's the water company serving Chelmsford used to sell what was effectively dried deactivated sludge from the sewage works for use as fertiliser. Apparently it was really excellent stuff, the only problem being that, whatever you  planted, a lot of tomato plants always came up as well!

 

 

 

 

Edited August 2, 2021 by Ronaldo47
typos

[Clodi]

It is possible to successfully compost ones poop whilst CC'ing, even easier if using a 'Hot composting' system. There are a couple Facebook  Groups covering this in some detail. The whole point of Composting Toilets is to Compost ones waste. No-one using compost toilets should be dumping their contents in the bins or the Elsan points!

[tree monkey]

4 minutes ago, Clodi said:

It is possible to successfully compost ones poop whilst CC'ing, even easier if using a 'Hot composting' system. There are a couple Facebook  Groups covering this in some detail. The whole point of Composting Toilets is to Compost ones waste. No-one using compost toilets should be dumping their contents in the bins or the Elsan points!

I was sceptical about the possibility of real composting in a bin on a boat but it seems like it is possible but it does take a certain amount of dedication.

 

There still is the issue of what is done with the actually composted waste, great if you have a proper garden, otherwise what do you do with it

[matty40s]

Just now, tree monkey said:

I was sceptical about the possibility of real composting in a bin on a boat but it seems like it is possible but it does take a certain amount of defacation.