C&RT say don't empty your compost toilet in our bins.

[Chagall]

Just now, Jerra said:

Then our crew (generally 5) are all nose blind as has every person who has pumped out for us.

 

I am not sure how the smell escapes from a tube with a lower pressure inside than out.  Can you explain the physics please.

No, Im not a physicist. 

[Jerra]

Just now, Chagall said:

No, Im not a physicist. 

Neither am I but for a smell to travel air must be carrying it.   Air will move from high pressure to low pressure my physics does run that far.   The vacuum of the pump will, if there are any gaps, be pulling air in rather than out surely.

[Steilsteven]

1 minute ago, haggis said:

That's not a very big sample 🙂 .  I too have been on boats where the toilet stank to high heaven but I have been on many more where there was absolutely no smell either on the boat or when a pump is being done. If you ever see us on kelpie, please come on board with your best nose and see if you can smell anything! 

However, we have a cassette loo on our Sea Otter and while we have no smell on board, I can't remember going to an Elsan which could be called a pleasant experience. It always seems to be a case of hold your nose and get the cassette emptied and rinsed as quickly as possible. 

 

haggis

 

So pump outs being carried out on a daily basis for years is not a big example hmm.

Thanks for the invite but I think I'll pass on that one.

Come to think of it, of the many boaters that I've known not a single one would admit to their toilet smelling, no matter what type.

 

Keith

[Chagall]

4 minutes ago, Jerra said:

Neither am I but for a smell to travel air must be carrying it.   Air will move from high pressure to low pressure my physics does run that far.   The vacuum of the pump will, if there are any gaps, be pulling air in rather than out surely.

I'm taking about the pipe at the marina that is about head height and has a vented top, the smell from a recent pump out escapes from there, I have no idea how and nor do I wish to. The pipe is placed very close to drying lines. One picks one's day to peg out washing! 

 

 

Edited August 1, 2021 by Chagall

[Steilsteven]

4 minutes ago, Jerra said:

Neither am I but for a smell to travel air must be carrying it.   Air will move from high pressure to low pressure my physics does run that far.   The vacuum of the pump will, if there are any gaps, be pulling air in rather than out surely.

Whatever it is being pumped to will have a vent.

 

[Jon57]

30 minutes ago, Chagall said:

 I think it would be reasonable to charge those with dry toilets for a designated bin and that being so surely it would be easy enough to provide a lockable bin?   Granted the set up cost would be large but the benefits eventually could prove to be worth it. 

 

 

The stuff also has value ...eventually.  I believe it is marketable. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Joined up thinking 👍

[Alway Swilby]

49 minutes ago, Chagall said:

 I think it would be reasonable to charge those with dry toilets for a designated bin and that being so surely it would be easy enough to provide a lockable bin?   Granted the set up cost would be large but the benefits eventually could prove to be worth it. 

 

 

The stuff also has value ...eventually.  I believe it is marketable. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think it would be reasonable to charge those with a cassette toilet for the elsan network operating and maintenance costs.

[Chagall]

10 minutes ago, Alway Swilby said:

I think it would be reasonable to charge those with a cassette toilet for the elsan network operating and maintenance costs.

Indeed, but since the infrastructure is already there and presumably covered by the licence fee the extra cost wouldn't need to be irksome, slightly less than the pump out cost perhaps. 

 

One would hope that boaters would benefit from such an increase of funds but the cynic in me suspects not, especially as we already have a concreted highway for cyclists and a duck lane. 

 

Actually the concreted highway likely does help disabled people too. ...if they can move out of the way quickly enough for the speed Lycra's! 

Edited August 1, 2021 by Chagall
Fairness

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, Chagall said:

 I think it would be reasonable to charge those with dry toilets for a designated bin and that being so surely it would be easy enough to provide a lockable bin?   Granted the set up cost would be large but the benefits eventually could prove to be worth it. 

 

 

The stuff also has value ...eventually.  I believe it is marketable. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Chagall]

20 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Thank you for the offer, I have more than I need at the moment. Do ask again. 

[Bargebuilder]

1 hour ago, Jerra said:

Then our crew (generally 5) are all nose blind as has every person who has pumped out for us.

 

I am not sure how the smell escapes from a tube with a lower pressure inside than out.  Can you explain the physics please.

It's great that you have a non-smelly pump out, but there can't be many people on the cut who have not been near an appallingly smelly pump out process, I know I have on several occasions.

 

Inside the boat should be fine if those expensive butyl lined sanitary pipes are used and replaced regularly.

[Alan de Enfield]

19 minutes ago, Chagall said:

Thank you for the offer, I have more than I need at the moment. Do ask again. 

 

Maybe keep this 'on file' for later :

 

 

 

[Chagall]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Maybe keep this 'on file' for later :

 

 

 

That is a good price, I'm very tempted. Ive filed it under SFS. 

[Bargebuilder]

I know everyone wants everyone else to pay, but it would surely be counter productive to charge for either Elsan disposal or toilet compost disposal as there will always be those that will avoid such charges by using the canal and hedgerow as a toilet dump. 

 

In addition, CRT won't want people to avoid toilet disposal costs by using their domestic waste Biffa bins, otherwise they might be fined or sanctioned in some way by the waste carrier.

[Chagall]

3 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

I know everyone wants everyone else to pay, but it would surely be counter productive to charge for either Elsan disposal or toilet compost disposal as there will always be those that will avoid such charges by using the canal and hedgerow as a toilet dump. 

 

In addition, CRT won't want people to avoid toilet disposal costs by using their domestic waste Biffa bins, otherwise they might be fined or sanctioned in some way by the waste carrier.

Yes, this has been discussed ad nauseum.  

 

To be fair C&RT have addressed this via pilot schemes already underway, we can hope it spreads. Literally. 

 

 

Edited August 1, 2021 by Chagall

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, Jerra said:

Then our crew (generally 5) are all nose blind as has every person who has pumped out for us.

 

I am not sure how the smell escapes from a tube with a lower pressure inside than out.  Can you explain the physics please.

I have notices a smell outside the boat when we have a pump out, only passing wiffs, but I don't know how it escapes, but as I use marinas for pumpouts I don't do it. If a pumpout toilet is smelling inside the boat there is something wrong

[Bargebuilder]

8 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I'm sure that C&RT will get a reduced charge due to volume, but we currently pay £23 + VAT (each) per week to have our Biffa bins emptied.

 

Having done a bit of detective work and with help from Alan above, the disposal of toilet compost isn't actually much of a problem at all.

 

The CRT have 220 sanitary stations, which are stations that have either Elsan or pump-outs or both.

 

If at every station a dedicated 'compost' bin was provided there would unsurprisingly be 220 of them. If each of them were to be emptied weekly then that would be 11440 emptyings per year. If Alan's figure for emptying is correct at £23 plus vat, then the cost to CRT would be £263,120 plus vat. 

 

Now, the CRT advertise that they have 35,000 boat licence holders and state that this number is increasing every year, meaning that the princely sum of about £7.50 per year per licence holder would cover the cost. A tiny percentage increase on the licence fee that most of us pay I hope you'll agree.

 

As Alan mentions, the CRT should be able to negotiate a decent discount on the above figures and in reality, such bins wouldn't need emptying weekly anyway.

 

The CRT, having made it easy for people to convert to separating loos have encouraged the trend, so they will have to do something to avoid the contamination of their bins and the environment that will inevitably happen from January of next year. Supplying dedicated bins may be the best and cheapest option.

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

such bins wouldn't need emptying weekly anyway.

 

Having thought about it, I disagree - piles of 'fresh' crap (ie not composted) will not smell very pleasant after a few days in the Sun, 50,000,000 flies around each bin will at least show which bin to use.

 

I wonder who is going to take responsibility for jet washing the bins out every week / 2 weeks ?

Maybe you need to add in the costs of a 'bin washer' (Van, insurance, licence, fuel & maintenance, jet wash equipment, salary, + pension, NI, holiday pay, etc etc)

Another £100,000 should cover it,

[Bargebuilder]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Having thought about it, I disagree - piles of 'fresh' crap (ie not composted) will not smell very pleasant after a few days in the Sun, 50,000,000 flies around each bin will at least show which bin to use.

 

I wonder who is going to take responsibility for jet washing the bins out every week / 2 weeks ?

Maybe you need to add in the costs of a 'bin washer' (Van, insurance, licence, fuel & maintenance, jet wash equipment, salary, + pension, NI, holiday pay, etc etc)

Another £100,000 should cover it,

It would still be bagged: waste processors have remote bag removal apparatus these days so there should be no smell from the bins, no, or very few flies and a clean bin once emptied.

 

No solution is going to be ideal, but surely this one would be preferable to the fly tipping of human waste.

[GUMPY]

5 hours ago, haggis said:

It always seems to be a case of hold your nose and get the cassette emptied and rinsed as quickly as possible. 

 

Surely thats not your job.

[haggis]

9 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Surely thats not your job.

Can be 😀. 

[Alway Swilby]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Having thought about it, I disagree - piles of 'fresh' crap (ie not composted) will not smell very pleasant after a few days in the Sun, 50,000,000 flies around each bin will at least show which bin to use.

 

I wonder who is going to take responsibility for jet washing the bins out every week / 2 weeks ?

Maybe you need to add in the costs of a 'bin washer' (Van, insurance, licence, fuel & maintenance, jet wash equipment, salary, + pension, NI, holiday pay, etc etc)

Another £100,000 should cover it,

Re the flies. We now have three 22 litre buckets of in your words "fresh crap" on the roof of our NB. The lids aren't sealed and there is a stick holding each lid open so there is ventilation. There are NO flies around any of the buckets. There are many people on this forum who have no idea of what the contents of the solids bucket of a composting toilet look like or of its consistency. It's nothing like "fresh crap". It's mixed (i.e stired in) with at least 50% cover material (we use dampened wooden cat litter) before it even leaves the toilet, it doesn't smell because there is no wee in there and it doesn't attract flies, at all, ever! There are lots of assumptions about composting toilets (and I wish they weren't called composting because they don't compost but we seem to be stuck with the name) made on this forum by people who have no experience of them at all. 

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, Alway Swilby said:

I wish they weren't called composting because they don't compost

 

But, isn't the whole idea behind 'composting toilets' that they compost. Being designed for use in mountain cabins, woodland retreats etc where there is no water, electricty, sewage systems etc available, They are emptied into compost-heaps to finalise the process.

 

You are correct, they are not 'composting toilets' when used in an environment that does not allow them to function as they were designed to do.

Boat use is not conducive to effective composting.

 

You are correct, on a boat they are not composting toilets - maybe we should call them what they are "crapping in a bucket half-full of wood shaving toilets", happy now ?

[Alway Swilby]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

But, isn't the whole idea behind 'composting toilets' that they compost. Being designed for use in mountain cabins, woodland retreats etc where there is no water, electricty, sewage systems etc available, They are emptied into compost-heaps to finalise the process.

 

You are correct, they are not 'composting toilets' when used in an environment that does not allow them to function as they were designed to do.

Boat use is not conducive to effective composting.

 

You are correct, on a boat they are not composting toilets - maybe we should call them what they are "crapping in a bucket half-full of wood shaving toilets", happy now ?

Our composting is done elsewhere outside of the toilet. That's why they shouldn't be called composting toilets. We could call them many things: waterless toilets, dessicating toilets, anything really, I don't care. If it keeps you happy call them "crapping in a bucket half-full of wood shavings" toilets. Perhaps we could also change the name of the euphamistic cassette toilet to "weeing and crapping into a sealed container then every couple of days wheeling the container down the towpath to a smelly horrible elsan point and pouring the contents down it so you can check on said contents again then for someone else to deal with those contents" toilets.

[peterboat]

5 minutes ago, Alway Swilby said:

Our composting is done elsewhere outside of the toilet. That's why they shouldn't be called composting toilets. We could call them many things: waterless toilets, dessicating toilets, anything really, I don't care. If it keeps you happy call them "crapping in a bucket half-full of wood shavings" toilets. Perhaps we could also change the name of the euphamistic cassette toilet to "weeing and crapping into a sealed container then every couple of days wheeling the container down the towpath to a smelly horrible elsan point and pouring the contents down it so you can check on said contents again then for someone else to deal with those contents" toilets.

I actually put veg waste in the toilet to get the mix right! It makes it easier when it goes on the compost heap, I do use coconut shavings in layers as well with a thickish coat on top