C&RT say don't empty your compost toilet in our bins.

[David Mack]

11 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

Nearly half of CRT pumpouts or elsans go into septic tanks, not into main sewers. 

What is the source of this information?

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, Jon57 said:

Standard CRT operation procedure. No joined up thinking, no joined up plumbing 🤣

 

Are they so young that CRT installed them, then?

[Bargebuilder]

7 hours ago, PD1964 said:

I mean the type that can’t handle the smell of their own solid waste or go all faint at the sight of it, I don’t understand it as it’s theirs and nobody else’s. What did they expect when they bought a boat, that their s£&t smells of roses and flushes straight into the canal never to be seen again?

Modern Cassettes don’t leak and slop all over, the new Thetford wheeled version is very good at sealing and is easy to handle. The secret is to have at least two cassettes and empty them when you can and don’t let them fill right up. As I said the composting toilet is an easy solution to not see, handle or smell their own waste and with more bins there’s more opportunities to dump it, most compost toilet users have no interest in composting their waste as it should be done.

The're not here to reply, so it's only fair to mention that the Foxes were content to use their cassette toilet until they discovered the many benefits of a separating loo as an alternative and they did, in fact, have a spare cassette on board.

 

Most of us have emptied toilet cassettes but I doubt that many of us enjoy the smell and the occasional splash back and the sheer frequency of the less than pleasant process.

 

I struggle to criticize someone for finding an alternative that has no smell, very little weight to carry, no foul containers to rinse out and no danger of having to flush splashes of human waste out of ones eye.

 

In common with many or maybe most users of separating loos, the Foxes make no effort to compost, but the CRT, a very short time ago, praised such toilets and encouraged their users to deposit their 'dry' toilet waste in their bins.

 

Composting loos are so much nicer in so many ways to use and manage than either cassette or pump-out toilets, that I'm pretty sure that those who don't like them haven't first hand experience of them.

 

If the CRT embraced the trend towards composting and instructed Biffa to supply occasional bins for the purpose, before too long, the convenience of separating loos, I believe, would soon see them in the majority.

 

Pump out facilities must be a complete pain for the CRT given the frequency with which they are out of order. The maintenance and replacement costs of these facilities must be considerable. 

 

There is little doubt that, even after the ban on putting toilet waste in CRT bins comes in next year, having been encouraged to do so, some people will ignore the instruction. At some point the CRT may have to provide a proper facility for disposal to avoid penalties from their waste carrier.

 

 

[Jon57]

6 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Are they so young that CRT installed them, then?

Don’t know. But if it’s correct that one service is connected to the main sewer and to quote the next next door service isn’t. With a little alteration to the plumbing it will save money and potential problems in the future. Yes it will cost money but as my accountant says sometimes you have to spend money to save money. Unlike CRT who wait till it’s broken.

[haggis]

20 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

 

In common with many or maybe most users of separating loos, the Foxes make no effort to compost, but the CRT, a very short time ago, praised such toilets and encouraged their users to deposit their 'dry' toilet waste in their bins.

 

Composting loos are so much nicer in so many ways to use and manage than either cassette or pump-out toilets, that I'm pretty sure that those who don't like them haven't first hand experience of them.

 

There is little doubt that, even after the ban on putting toilet waste in CRT bins comes in next year, having been encouraged to do so, some people will ignore the instruction. At some point the CRT may have to provide a proper facility for disposal to avoid penalties from their waste carrier.

 

 

I don't think C&RT ever praised composting toilets or encouraged users to deposit their waste in Biffa bins. They accepted that a few boaters had installed compost toilets and when asked about disposal of the humanure they said to double bag it and put it in the Biffa bins. At that point there were very few such toilets in boats and the C&RT advice was based on this. I don't think anyone realised just how many would be installed by boaters and that the quantity of humanure being dumped in bins would cause a problem.  Compost loos are fine if you have the facility to properly compost either on your boat or on your own land. 

 

Have you ever used a pumpout loo when you say that handling your own waste is nicer than a pump out? With a pump out, if properly installed and managed there is no smell, you forget about your output for several weeks until the tank is getting full when you pull into a boatyard where someone else connects a hose to your boat and empties your tank. What's not to like?  OK you have to pay for it but you also have to pay for proper bags for double bagging and sawdust or similar to mix with the humanure. 

 

The ban on humanure in Biffa bins comes into force this December, not next year.

 

haggis

[Alan de Enfield]

26 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

If the CRT embraced the trend towards composting and instructed Biffa to supply occasional bins for the purpose, before too long, the convenience of separating loos, I believe, would soon see them in the majority.

 

Are you seriously suggesting that C&RT should provide additional BIFFA bins at every waste point across the system ?

 

I'm sure that C&RT will get a reduced charge due to volume, but we currently pay £23 + VAT (each) per week to have our Biffa bins emptied.

Lets underestimate and say that C&RT have 500 bin compounds across the whole of the system, that is over £1000 per week for an additional bin - and - then you still have the problem of people using the wrong bin as the 'composting bin' becomes full of general-waste, and the general bins get bagged 'poop'.

 

During C19 lockdowns we put our bins 'on retention' which meant we didn't have to pay to have them emptied but we had to pay £15.75 + VAT (each) per week to keep the bins on site

 

A composting bin may not need emptying every week, but unfortunately humans being what they are, if the general bins are full what will they put their waste in ?

 

C&RT are not required to provide any services, and, if they wished, the Waterways Act actually allows them to charge for services provided, but again, if the Composting bins are 'charged for' and the general bins are not - where will the bags of 'poop' end up ?

[tree monkey]

1 hour ago, Bargebuilder said:

 

 

There is little doubt that, even after the ban on putting toilet waste in CRT bins comes in next year, having been encouraged to do so, some people will ignore the instruction. At some point the CRT may have to provide a proper facility for disposal to avoid penalties from their waste carrier.

 

 

I would have no problem with CRT provided dedicated dessicated poo disposal points, the problem I would imagine would be people, let's be honest here there's enough who seen to think pouring engine oil down an Elsan (or whatever mad, stupid Elsan blocking product) or seem to think throwing their rubbish in the general direction of the bins is OK, to generally bugger up the new shiny poo disposal approach 

[Bargebuilder]

11 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Are you seriously suggesting that C&RT should provide additional BIFFA bins at every waste point across the system ?

 

I'm sure that C&RT will get a reduced charge due to volume, but we currently pay £23 + VAT (each) per week to have our Biffa bins emptied.

Lets underestimate and say that C&RT have 500 bin compounds across the whole of the system, that is over £1000 per week for an additional bin - and - then you still have the problem of people using the wrong bin as the 'composting bin' becomes full of general-waste, and the general bins get bagged 'poop'.

 

During C19 lockdowns we put our bins 'on retention' which meant we didn't have to pay to have them emptied but we had to pay £15.75 + VAT (each) per week to keep the bins on site

 

A composting bin may not need emptying every week, but unfortunately humans being what they are, if the general bins are full what will they put their waste in ?

 

C&RT are not required to provide any services, and, if they wished, the Waterways Act actually allows them to charge for services provided, but again, if the Composting bins are 'charged for' and the general bins are not - where will the bags of 'poop' end up ?

My wife and I, when we had a separating loo, needed to swap it for an empty one every 8 to 10 weeks. You, with a pump-out need to empty every 3 weeks. Composting bins for toilet waste wouldn't need to be more frequent than pump-outs as they are needed a lot less frequently.

 

Of course they'll be abused by mistake and deliberately, but if CRT provide no suitable bins, what do you think will happen then?

 

With a pump-out, once your tank is nearly full you have to find a pump-out facility urgently, but when you're composting, as you add fresh material, what's already there dries out and or decomposes, so the receptacle is incredibly slow to fill. Therefore, when composting, you can be nearly full for literally weeks, so there would never be an urgent need to find a legitimate CRT supplied composting bin, so such bins needn't be any more frequent than pump-out facilities.

 

I would hope that the vast majority of boaters would be responsible, but I accept not all. I would suggest that those boaters who are not responsible will ignore the new ban and throw their toilet waste in the Biffa bins anyway, which may cause more problems for the CRT than accepting that composters are here to stay and providing a facility for their users.

[Alan de Enfield]

9 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

Composting bins for toilet waste wouldn't need to be more frequent than pump-outs as they are needed a lot less frequently.

 

 

But as I indicated, you are still required to pay a 'retention charge' for the weeks the bin is not emptied, view it as a 'rental charge' so who is going to fund the additional (say) £50,000 per annum for the service.

 

How would they be charged for ?

 

Maybe 'toilet type' should be a requirement on the BSS, then C&RT can identify who has composting toilets and add (?) £100s onto the licence fee.

 

12 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

I would hope that the vast majority of boaters would be responsible, but I accept not all.

 

 

I think you have much higher expectations of boaters acting 'responsibly' than I.

Some certainly will, but a fair majority won't.

[peterboat]

The only composting toilet users I know are responsible users like myself. Like me they use the product to grow vegetables, I can see what the detractors are saying others would throw general waste in composting facilities 

[ditchcrawler]

3 hours ago, haggis said:

Oh, I didn't know that the figure was as high as that. I had thought that when a pumpout or elsan was built near a built up area (as many of them are) they would be connected to the main sewer system. 

I also thought pumpouts went to mains sewage  but lots of elsan to tank, hence the notice "not suitable for self pumpout"

[haggis]

44 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I also thought pumpouts went to mains sewage  but lots of elsan to tank, hence the notice "not suitable for self pumpout"

Hadn't thought of that for the reason for not being suitable for self pump outs. I has assumed (probably wrongly) that it was because of the diameter of the pipework below the elsan that there was a risk of blowback or stuff not draining away quickly enough and the elsan overflowing. 

 

haggis

[Bargebuilder]

3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

But as I indicated, you are still required to pay a 'retention charge' for the weeks the bin is not emptied, view it as a 'rental charge' so who is going to fund the additional (say) £50,000 per annum for the service.

 

How would they be charged for ?

 

Maybe 'toilet type' should be a requirement on the BSS, then C&RT can identify who has composting toilets and add (?) £100s onto the licence fee.

 

 

 

I think you have much higher expectations of boaters acting 'responsibly' than I.

Some certainly will, but a fair majority won't.

Alan, are you able to help me out with some figures?

If at each CRT pump-out station the CRT put a composting bin, how many such stations are there?

Approximately how much would it cost the CRT annually for the above number of bins? 

 

If the CRT were to adapt charges to reflect each boats use of their assets there would be a riot! Imagine asking continuous cruisers to pay extra because they use the bins all year round or because they use more water than 'fortnight a year' boaters. You'd also need to offer discounts for boats that never even leave their marina. For this reason, it probably wouldn't be possible to charge the owners of composting loos directly. 

 

I'm guessing that there aren't that many pump-out stations so there wouldn't need to be many composting bins in tandem, so the overall cost would be small when divided by the total number of licence payers.

 

Responsible composters will use infrequent composting bins because it's much easier for composters to delay emptying a while, than it is for pump-outers. Irresponsible boaters will continue to empty toilet waste into any bin they can find and cassettes directly into the canal/river, but you'll never stop that.

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Bargebuilder said:

If at each CRT pump-out station the CRT put a composting bin, how many such stations are there?

 

 

There appears to be insufficient C&RT owned pump-outs which is why privately owned (marina) pump-outs are commonly used.

I have no idea, how many C&RT pump-outs there are, but don't forget that future composters are just as likely to be changing from Cassette as from pump-out so should there be a composting skip at every elsan site ? Would the number solely at pump-outs be sufficient if the demand for composting grows ? How many elsan sites are there ?

 

6 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

.............. cassettes directly into the canal/river, but you'll never stop that.

 

No, you will never stop it because on any River that does not have specific By-Laws prohibiting it it is allowed,

 

Read Section 3(2)(b) of the Environmental Permitting Regulations

 

Its even allowed on parts of the Thames where many people believe it is banned, (under section 124 of byelaw 49) However any vessel used as a liveboard cannot pump-out into the River, but, leisure boats appear to be excluded.

 

PLA Byelaw 49 came into force on 1 January 2015. The Byelaw prevents the discharge of sewage into the Thames from specified vessels, consistent with the continuing improvement of the Thames environment, particularly with Thames Water's project to stop the discharge of untreated sewage into the river, and brings the Thames into line with a number of other UK harbours and inland waterways.

For the purposes of this byelaw, sewage refers to faeces and urine plus any water associated with them. In some circumstances, sewage from vessels is known as "black water".

The full text of the Port of London Authority Byelaw 49 is reproduced below:

 

49 (2012). DISCHARGE OF SEWAGE INTO THE THAMES

 

49.1 The owner of:

a.    a vessel licensed under section 124 of the Act or

b.    a houseboat

must, from 1 January 2015, ensure that no sewage is discharged into the Thames.

 

49.2 In this byelaw “houseboat” means any vessel (other than a ship registered under the Merchant Shipping Act 1995 or any vessel usually used for navigation) which is used primarily as a place of habitation, or as a place for accommodating or receiving persons for the purposes of shelter, recreation, entertainment or refreshment, or as club premises or offices, while it is moored.

In 2015 the PLA proposed to extend the byelaw covering all commercial vessels in the Thames, as currently the passenger boat industry and commercial sailing yachts are not required to contain their Blackwater. This is currently going through consultation with Department for transport and will state; Aofhjvv by 2023

 

It is interesting to note that a 'pleasure boat' does not come under the licensing criteria of section 124 of the Act, and would thus appear not to be affected by the sewage disposal legislation :

 

124.—(1) Subject to subsection (2) of this section, a vessel shall not be navigated, worked or moored within the vessel licensing area unless—

(a)there is in force in relation to it a relevant licence issued by the Port Authority in accordance with byelaws made by the Port Authority; and

(b)the name of the vessel and such other particulars as may be prescribed in byelaws made by the Port Authority are displayed on the vessel in the manner prescribed by those byelaws.

(2) Subsection (1) of this section shall not apply to—

(a)a vessel which is navigated, worked or moored only occasionally in the vessel licensing area;

(b)a pleasure vessel;

(c)a hovercraft or seaplane;

(d)any vessel (other than a ship registered under the Merchant Shipping Act 1995 or any vessel usually used for navigation) which is used primarily as a place of habitation, or as a place for accommodating or receiving persons for the purposes of shelter, recreation, entertainment or refreshment, or as club premises or offices, while it is moored;

 

[ditchcrawler]

10 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I have no idea, how many C&RT pump-outs there are, but don't forget that future composters are just as likely to be changing from Cassette as from pump-out so should there be a composting skip at every elsan site ? 

 

Can you imagine that been where a couple of boats with say 4 people on board empty there waterless toilets that each contained todays  deposits where its not even dry yet and the people who would drop plastic bag full's of it in there all to be sorted by someone at a later date

[Steilsteven]

5 hours ago, haggis said:

I don't think C&RT ever praised composting toilets or encouraged users to deposit their waste in Biffa bins. They accepted that a few boaters had installed compost toilets and when asked about disposal of the humanure they said to double bag it and put it in the Biffa bins. At that point there were very few such toilets in boats and the C&RT advice was based on this. I don't think anyone realised just how many would be installed by boaters and that the quantity of humanure being dumped in bins would cause a problem.  Compost loos are fine if you have the facility to properly compost either on your boat or on your own land. 

 

Have you ever used a pumpout loo when you say that handling your own waste is nicer than a pump out? With a pump out, if properly installed and managed there is no smell, you forget about your output for several weeks until the tank is getting full when you pull into a boatyard where someone else connects a hose to your boat and empties your tank. What's not to like?  OK you have to pay for it but you also have to pay for proper bags for double bagging and sawdust or similar to mix with the humanure. 

 

The ban on humanure in Biffa bins comes into force this December, not next year.

 

haggis

No smell? Pull the other one, they stink to high heaven. I should know, I had a mooring close to one for a couple of years. I also had the misfortune to be at another ''properly installed'' pump out when someone was using it and it made me heave. I am known for having a strong stomach btw.

I've know of pump out tanks on boats leaking over long periods with the owner blissfully unaware until one day deciding to have a look at the bilges.

 

Keith

[PD1964]

1 hour ago, Bargebuilder said:

 

If the CRT were to adapt charges to reflect each boats use of their assets there would be a riot! Imagine asking continuous cruisers to pay extra because they use the bins all year round or because they use more water than 'fortnight a year' boaters. You'd also need to offer discounts for boats that never even leave their marina. For this reason, it probably wouldn't be possible to charge the owners 

I believe there was talk of a separate Continuous Cruising Licence that would be more then the standard leisure licence, pretty sure it was discussed on here a few month ago. Yes it was in CaRT’s Licence T&C’s, maybe with the composting problem they may increase the license to cover, you say a riot, they did the same with a % increase for widebeams and there was no riot.

Edited August 1, 2021 by PD1964

[Chagall]

 I think it would be reasonable to charge those with dry toilets for a designated bin and that being so surely it would be easy enough to provide a lockable bin?   Granted the set up cost would be large but the benefits eventually could prove to be worth it. 

 

 

The stuff also has value ...eventually.  I believe it is marketable. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 1, 2021 by Chagall
too many its! ...and further thought

[ditchcrawler]

1 minute ago, Chagall said:

 I think it would be reasonable to charge those with dry toilets for a designated bin and that being so it surely it would be easy enough to provide a lockable bin?   Granted the set up cost would be large but the benefits eventually could prove to be worth it. 

 

 

Like all the locked water points, toilets, shows and some waste facilities that everyone has a key to

[Chagall]

Just now, ditchcrawler said:

Like all the locked water points, toilets, shows and some waste facilities that everyone has a key to

Not necessarily. 

[Jerra]

6 hours ago, Jon57 said:

Standard CRT operation procedure. No joined up thinking, no joined up plumbing 🤣

As many (most?) chemical toilets use "blue" which kills bacteria perhaps proximity to the filter beds makes having elsans emptied direct into the sewage system impossible.    The chemicals would (in regular or large doses surely destroy the bacteria of the filter beds.

23 minutes ago, Steilsteven said:

No smell? Pull the other one, they stink to high heaven. I should know, I had a mooring close to one for a couple of years. I also had the misfortune to be at another ''properly installed'' pump out when someone was using it and it made me heave. I am known for having a strong stomach btw.

I've know of pump out tanks on boats leaking over long periods with the owner blissfully unaware until one day deciding to have a look at the bilges.

 

Keith

Strange I have never noticed any great amount of smell when we have been pumping out/being pumped out.

[Steilsteven]

5 minutes ago, Jerra said:

As many (most?) chemical toilets use "blue" which kills bacteria perhaps proximity to the filter beds makes having elsans emptied direct into the sewage system impossible.    The chemicals would (in regular or large doses surely destroy the bacteria of the filter beds.

Strange I have never noticed any great amount of smell when we have been pumping out/being pumped out.

Well you know what they say about smelling your own 😉

[Chagall]

6 minutes ago, Jerra said:

As many (most?) chemical toilets use "blue" which kills bacteria perhaps proximity to the filter beds makes having elsans emptied direct into the sewage system impossible.    The chemicals would (in regular or large doses surely destroy the bacteria of the filter beds.

Strange I have never noticed any great amount of smell when we have been pumping out/being pumped out.

Nose blind springs to mind.   I can smell it during the pump outs at the marina,  and for days after as it airs through the breather valve, although for those who cruise off that isn't a problem. 

[haggis]

35 minutes ago, Steilsteven said:

No smell? Pull the other one, they stink to high heaven. I should know, I had a mooring close to one for a couple of years. I also had the misfortune to be at another ''properly installed'' pump out when someone was using it and it made me heave. I am known for having a strong stomach btw.

I've know of pump out tanks on boats leaking over long periods with the owner blissfully unaware until one day deciding to have a look at the bilges.

 

Keith

That's not a very big sample 🙂 .  I too have been on boats where the toilet stank to high heaven but I have been on many more where there was absolutely no smell either on the boat or when a pump out  is being done. If you ever see us on kelpie, please come on board with your best nose and see if you can smell anything! 

However, we have a cassette loo on our Sea Otter and while we have no smell on board, I can't remember going to an Elsan which could be called a pleasant experience. It always seems to be a case of hold your nose and get the cassette emptied and rinsed as quickly as possible. 

 

haggis

 

Edited August 1, 2021 by haggis

[Jerra]

1 minute ago, Chagall said:

Nose blind springs to mind.   I can smell it during the pump outs at the marina,  and for days after as it airs through the breather valve, although for those who cruise off that isn't a problem. 

Then our crew (generally 5) are all nose blind as has every person who has pumped out for us.

 

I am not sure how the smell escapes from a tube with a lower pressure inside than out.  Can you explain the physics please.