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C&RT say don't empty your compost toilet in our bins.


Alan de Enfield

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7 minutes ago, Hudds Lad said:

 

according to my better half who does Twitter, they were asking people to flag any reference in their literature/T&C's they hadn't already changed so it could be updated.

 

i'll ask her later if she can find it again, she's busy on video calls at the moment

Bag it and bin it is still the advice in The Boaters Handbook  https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/library/141.pdf  page 60

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1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

It seems I am wrong 

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/enjoy-the-waterways/boating/boating-blogs-and-features/boating-team/game-of-thrones-boat-toilet-waste-disposal

 

 

Composting toilets are increasing in popularity, particularly in areas with few facilities or very busy areas that suffer from frequently malfunctioning pump-out machines or Elsan units. Composting can be a great solution, but there are some important considerations for people choosing this approach.

The main thing to consider with compost toilets on boats is having sufficient space to compost solids correctly. Solids can take anything from three months to twelve months to break down into harmless compost. And as anyone who has ever lived on a boat for any length of time will tell you, space is always at a premium. 

As the waste from a composting toilet may not have enough time to decompose sufficiently on board the boat before it needs emptying, this waste will still need to be disposed of in an appropriate way – for example a suitable composting site away from the canal. It should not be put in our bins – and absolutely must not be disposed of on or near the towpaths. Liquid waste can be emptied down an Elsan point. With the increasing popularity of composting toilets, we are hoping to provide facilities for solid waste from composting loos in future. Please don’t ever dump liquid and solid waste on the towpath or into the water. 

What to do and what not to do

Hoping to provide facilities gets better 

2 hours ago, nbfiresprite said:

 

Quite so, according to friend who's a doctor, the average aduit produces each year 200kg's of soild waste (Number 2's) and about 800 litres of urine,

Wot a day ??

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Just now, Dr Bob said:

It is quite shocking when you think about it. This is a huge amount of offensive waste being disposed of in DOMESTIC black bin sacks.

 

 

I repeat, what I have said several times - there is a world of difference between the legislation for commecial waste disposal (ie C&RT) and Domestic waste disposal (ie little Bob at home pooing in his nappy).

 

The domestic user, with their 'normal wheely bin' can put into the bin anything which the collection company / local authority allow. If they put in something that is not allowed, then the collection company can refuse to empty it. The only legal requirement for the home owner is to ensure that the bins are collected by a registered waste-handler.

 

It is very different for commercial enterprises (which being a Director of several companies I'm sure you are aware, but would rather ignore the fact). Commercial waste is strongly regulated with various waste products having different classifications. We are talking about 'offensive waste' (and I have linked to the Governments descriptions earlier)

 

Offensive waste eincludes faeces, and there are limits as to how much can be placed in a bag (7Kg), how many bags can be placed in a bin (1 - one) and what type of bag must be used (Tiger bag)

C&RT have no control over , how much is placed in a bag, how many bags are placed in a bin or what bags are used. They are therefore failing to meet their legal 'Duty of Care' requirments.

 

The penalities for this can be quite severe :

 

 

The repercussions of not following the Duty of Care waste guidelines

If your company makes any mistakes that could affect the environment in a negative way, you will be contacted by the Environment Agency. This may not be too much to worry about depending on the severity though. In the case of it being your first instance, they’ll merely give you advice on how to best fix the problem and guide you through it. You may suffer some repercussions, but none that should prove too damaging. These include:

 

  • Warnings for your business
  • Enforcement/prohibition notices
  • Fixed penalty notices
  • Formal cautions

 

If this is a problem that can’t be solved effectively, however, this is where you need to worry.

 

They may deem imposing civil or criminal sanctions on you if the damage is too severe. These include:

 

  • Suspensions or revoking of environmental permits
  • Require additional conditions of the permits you file
  • Impose additional license conditions
  • Apply for an injunction

 

In the case of an injunction, this will mean your business will face a court order to either stop one of your activities, or have it take another action. In the most severe cases, the Environment Agency will take you or your business to a criminal court for prosecution.

 

131 successful prosecutions took place in England from 2012-13 according to the Environment Agency’s statistics, with 5 prison sentences, 15 suspended sentences, 52 formal cautions and 116 fines. The fines added up to a total of £827,940. A quick calculation shows the average fine as £7,000+, something that can easily be the downfall for smaller businesses.

 

The highest fine during that time span was £262,500, an amount that should strike fear in a lot of even large businesses.

 

 

I do not disagree that C&RT could have gone about this in a better way, but we do not know if they have had a warning from the EA "Stop it now or face fines" and were not able to give warning or 'consult' on the subject (not that I can see there is much to consult on)

 

If the reason for the 'announcement' is due to the waste carrier or the EA pointing out that C&RT are not abiding by the regulations, then that is a weakness of C&RT by not knowing what they were doing, not reading contracts and not doing due diligence.

 

 

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5 hours ago, IanD said:

No "they" won't -- I posted earlier (on page 13) that a single bag (from one boat) with 7kg of dried poo from a composting toilet probably contains about the same amount of faecal matter as a quarter of a ton of used nappies...

What a ridiculous thing to come out with.

 

...and it is totally misleading. We are talking offensive waste here not just faecal matter. A quarter of a ton!!!!??????

Get real.

A baby in the first 6 months drinks circa 1 kg of milk per 24 hours. After than it moves to eating more solids but similar quantities. Some of this weight will go into body weight or into CO2 but likely 80% of it is excreted. So lets be conservative and say 0.75Kg goes into the nappies in 24 hours. That is 5Kgs of offensive waste in nappies per child per week. Note that this is very offensive - a very mobilel slurry of very smelly waste that stinks after a week in a bin before it is collected. This amount ties in quite well with the 7Kg the government allowance off disposal of offensive waste. So a family with one child will produce a similar weight of 'orrible stuff compared with the same weight of dried non smelly stuff from a dry toilet. There are over 5 million of these putting them in black bins which end up on Biffa's picking line (and others). Even if 30,000 boaters did it, it would pale into insigificance (<1% who find maths challenging).

 

......and Alan, stop banging on about commercial versus domestic waste. It all ends up on the same picking line. Ive asked you twice about your caravan site. I dont know how many dumpsters you have per caravan but lets assume 20. If you have half of those with kids in nappies and you empty them once per week then you will be shipping 50Kg of offensive waste with each shippment. How do you deal with this? If Biffa are upset with the odd bag of solid poo in CRT bins then they are not going to like you. Do you ban babies from your site?

 

Note - whilst I am relaxed about dried poo going into waste bins (which by the way I do not do) as it is much safer than nappies (of which there are far more), I am totally against mixed human waste as that is smelly, 'orrible and can contaminate every thing else.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Jon johan said:

It was solid poo, but probably quite fresh. I doubt it had even been composted for a week, and it should not be in the bin.

(That is my own personal view). Either compost it as specified, or get a pump out or cassette.

All the comparison posts regarding nappies is not acceptable. This is large scale human waste going into the nearest rubbish bin, and with the increasing popularity of composting toilets, will only become a bigger issue.

 

Of course it could have been from an emergency loo? Maybe their pump out broke and they were awaiting spare parts? Its happened to me when I had one

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11 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

 

Have you done the sums?

Birth rate of babies in the UK is around 750K a year. Therefore likely circa 1 million babies in nappies at the current time (assuming up to 18 month old). Babies start off with around 10 nappies a day at birth up to say 5 a day when 18 months. My limited maths says that is over 5 million nappies a day put in bins. Very little of this goes into dedicated nappy recycling. The rest goes on picking lines and is either land filled or incinerated.

Would you dispute those figures. The data is easily available.

It is quite shocking when you think about it. This is a huge amount of offensive waste being disposed of in black bin sacks.

 

 

 

No, but they are being put on the councils picking line which is the key thing everyone seems to be objecting to.

I am not disputing any figures at all and I have absolutely no idea how many baby nappies are used in a year but I expect it will be a small proportion of them that end up in CRT bins. I had never heard of  picking lines till it was mentioned here and I don't think that is the only thing everyone on here is objecting to. I can't speak for everyone else but my reservations on putting bags of human s*** in CRT bins is what happens when the bag bursts  - because of other stuff dumped on top or the bin being lifted into the vehicle which empties it. You then have loose human s***  over everything, possibly including the inside of the bin lid (when it is emptied) and others using the bin later might get it on their hands. Not nice! I doubt if these bins are ever cleaned so give it a short time of lots of non composting going on and you have a pretty disgusting and unhygienic situation developing. 

As I have said in the past, long before this thread started, I just can't understand why people are going back to almost the old bucket and chucket days when we have a perfectly sound sewer system in the country.

I have absolutely no problem with folk who do actually compost their solids but I don't think many boaters have the facility to do this on board. Great if you have access to ground based composting facilties but not many boaters have. 

 

I just feel it is such a backward step except when proper composting takes place.

 

haggis

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13 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

......and Alan, stop banging on about commercial versus domestic waste. It all ends up on the same picking line.

 

Do you not think that the law applies solely to commercial operations is relevant ?

Irrespective of it ending up on the same picking line it s illegal for a business to put more than 7kgs in a bin per collection cycle.

It is not illegal for 'little Bobs output' to go into a domestic bin.

 

 

13 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Ive asked you twice about your caravan site. I dont know how many dumpsters you have per caravan but lets assume 20.

 

Really - 20x  660 litre dumpster per caravan ?

 

13 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Do you ban babies from your site?

 

We do not have children on the site (except for those visiting) - we are a 'static caravan' site, not having 100's of touring vans a week with screaming kids) 

All our owners are 'retired' and the 'peace and quiet' is what they look foward to.

 

All of the caravans are 'fully plumbed in' with flush toilets going into our sewage treatment plant. The solids are removed once or twice per year and are taken to an approved sewage works for treatment. Liquids are 'treated' in plant and run into a dyke (we used to need a discharge licence but the EA did away with it a few years ago). It is supposed to be of a drinkable quality, but I've never fancied trying it.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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29 minutes ago, MartynG said:

I  imagined it would be a small quantity from a composting toilet -  eg a bucket full?

What quantity are we talking about?

The point I was trying to make is nappies get continually compared to the contents of a "composting" toilet.  I don't feel it is a sensible comparison as if you take, say the quoted 7 Kg allowed in one bin from a "composting" toilet there will be a large amount of human waste and some other material e.g. coir.   On the other hand if you take 7 Kg of nappies there will be a very large amount of absorbent material compared to a relatively tiny amount of human waste.

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Just now, haggis said:

I am not disputing any figures at all and I have absolutely no idea how many baby nappies are used in a year but I expect it will be a small proportion of them that end up in CRT bins. I had never heard of  picking lines till it was mentioned here and I don't think that is the only thing everyone on here is objecting to. I can't speak for everyone else but my reservations on putting bags of human s*** in CRT bins is what happens when the bag bursts  - because of other stuff dumped on top or the bin being lifted into the vehicle which empties it. You then have loose human s***  over everything, possibly including the inside of the bin lid (when it is emptied) and others using the bin later might get it on their hands. Not nice! I doubt if these bins are ever cleaned so give it a short time of lots of non composting going on and you have a pretty disgusting and unhygienic situation developing. 

As I have said in the past, long before this thread started, I just can't understand why people are going back to almost the old bucket and chucket days when we have a perfectly sound sewer system in the country.

I have absolutely no problem with folk who do actually compost their solids but I don't think many boaters have the facility to do this on board. Great if you have access to ground based composting facilties but not many boaters have. 

 

I just feel it is such a backward step except when proper composting takes place.

 

haggis

The problem here is you dont understand what the stuff is like as you have never seen it - as per 99% of other people here (including the main protaganists on here). That's not a criticism but a lot of peeps are making comments without actual data.

 

If it is double bagged and inside another bag it is very unlikely to spread over anything else. It is not mobile enough. It is far less likely to contaminate other bits of the bin than a bag of nappies. Also it doesnt smell. It really is not the 'offensive' problem that certain people here make out in the CRT bin.

Whilst you are 'worried' about the CRT bin, others are worried about where it goes and what happens when it gets there. Again for transport it is better than the a bag of nappies - so for one boat a week, think one boat with a baby for a week (and then think of the hire boats!!). There is no difference and I await Alans response if he has a load of caravans in the summer with babies? Once at Biffa's depot, it is not touched by human hand as per the other 5 million nappies PER DAY! Again 99% of peeps here have never seen a picking line (or dont understand they exist) so do not understand what is going on in the real world.

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3 minutes ago, Jerra said:

The point I was trying to make is nappies get continually compared to the contents of a "composting" toilet.  I don't feel it is a sensible comparison as if you take, say the quoted 7 Kg allowed in one bin from a "composting" toilet there will be a large amount of human waste and some other material e.g. coir.   On the other hand if you take 7 Kg of nappies there will be a very large amount of absorbent material compared to a relatively tiny amount of human waste.

No the absobant material is quite low in weight. See my numbers above. A typical family with one baby are likely to generate and throw 5Kg of offensive waste into a bin per week (thats the weight of poo/wee, not the weight of nappy). The same as one boat with a couple on board. Both nappies and solid waste from a dry toilet are offensive waste and are likely to be thrown in a CRT bin. One baby = one dry toilet weight per week. There are lots of babies on hire boats. We produce around 5Kg a week which goes to a compost bin.

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7 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

There is no difference and I await Alans response if he has a load of caravans in the summer with babies? 

I suspect you haven't noticed Alan's site is static caravans and retired people so I doubt there are many nappies at all.

Just now, Dr Bob said:

No the absobant material is quite low in weight. See my numbers above. A typical family with one baby are likely to generate and throw 5Kg of offensive waste into a bin per week (thats the weight of poo/wee, not the weight of nappy). The same as one boat with a couple on board. Both nappies and solid waste from a dry toilet are offensive waste and are likely to be thrown in a CRT bin. One baby = one dry toilet weight per week. There are lots of babies on hire boats. We produce around 5Kg a week which goes to a compost bin.

Then my grandchildren must have been very strange, as the nappy before being worn weighed more than the few ounces of waste added during wearing.

 

My own children were in terry nappies so I can't compare with then.

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55 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

 

Have you done the sums?

Birth rate of babies in the UK is around 750K a year. Therefore likely circa 1 million babies in nappies at the current time (assuming up to 18 month old). Babies start off with around 10 nappies a day at birth up to say 5 a day when 18 months. My limited maths says that is over 5 million nappies a day put in bins. Very little of this goes into dedicated nappy recycling. The rest goes on picking lines and is either land filled or incinerated.

Would you dispute those figures. The data is easily available.

It is quite shocking when you think about it. This is a huge amount of offensive waste being disposed of in black bin sacks.

 

 

 

No, but they are being put on the councils picking line which is the key thing everyone seems to be objecting to.

 

It's the amount of faecal matter in one CaRT bin that matters for waste disposal classification (and required processing), not the total number of nappies in a year in the entire country...

 

As I keep pointing out (but you keep ignoring) the much-mentioned 7kg bag of semi-dried waste from a composting toilet contains about as much faecal matter as a quarter of a ton of used nappies (almost all the weight is liquid, not solid), or about a thousand.

 

You're never going to get anything anywhere near this number of nappies in one CaRT bin (or any other bin that goes into the waste disposal system), but you can very easily get more poo than that from composting toilets if more than one boat does a dump. This is why CaRT need to stop people doing this, because it's not allowable in general commercial waste for collection.

 

So you can stop banging on about nappies, it's pointless and irrelevant to this discussion ?

Edited by IanD
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Just now, Jerra said:

I suspect you haven't noticed Alan's site is static caravans and retired people so I doubt there are many nappies at all.

Yes, he has finally told us that so his site will not be similar to the CRT issue.

Instead look at the summer caravan sites. Not sure if know the one on the GU by the Blue Lias. I would reckon that 50% of the vans visiting have babies. Massive number of nappies going into dumpsters. Far more than any CRT site. That will be a huge problem breaking waste transfer laws according to Alan - so I dont think the 7kg of nappies per dumpster according to Alan is correct.

 

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5 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Yes, he has finally told us that so his site will not be similar to the CRT issue.

Instead look at the summer caravan sites. Not sure if know the one on the GU by the Blue Lias. I would reckon that 50% of the vans visiting have babies. Massive number of nappies going into dumpsters. Far more than any CRT site. That will be a huge problem breaking waste transfer laws according to Alan - so I dont think the 7kg of nappies per dumpster according to Alan is correct.

 

It's not 7kg of nappies, it's 7kg of faecal matter. Look at the numbers I posted earlier...

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38 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Hoping to provide facilities gets better 

Wot a day ??

Maths is not your strong point.

 

average adult produce  0.54 kgs of solid waste (Number 2's) and about between1.5 to 2 litres of urine per day. This does depend on amount eaten and drunk.

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1 minute ago, IanD said:

As I keep pointing out (but you keep ignoring) the much-mentioned 7kg bag of semi-dried waste from a composting toilet contains about as much poo as a quarter of a ton of used nappies, or about a thousand.

Wrong again. You can keep pointing out things as long as you like and as often as you want but they will still be wrong.

 

The amount of poo in the nappy is not the problem. It is the amount of offensive waste in the nappy that is the issue and the one that appears in law. As I showed above a typical family will produce circa 5KG of offensive body excrement in the fouled nappies per week that will go into the bin. The same weight of waste from a dry toilet for 2.

It is the amount of offensive waste that is controlled going into a bin and being monitored for transport - and what is important to the guys on the picking line.

There are at least 5 million nappies a day going into the system which is circa 750,000Kg of offensive waste per day.

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Just now, nbfiresprite said:

Maths is not your strong point.

 

average adult produce  0.54 kgs of solid waste (Number 2's) and about between1.5 to 2 litres of urine per day. This does depend on amount eaten and drunk.

 

And solid waste is about 75% water, so if you dry it out in a composting loo this gives 130g of solids per day. Add an equal amount of sawdust/whatever and that mean an adult generates about 2kg of "pre-compost" per week, so a couple will generate the "7kg bagfull" in about a fortnight.

 

A full no.2 in a baby's nappy won't contain more than about 100g of solid waste, meaning 25g of faecal matter, and from experience only about 1 out of 3 is a number 2, so on average a used nappy contains about 8g of faecal matter -- so about 1000 of them equal one "composting poo bag". But a full wet nappy weight a few hundred grams, so this many used nappies weighs about a quarter of a ton even though they only contain a few kgs of faecal matter.

 

Which is why used nappies are not a problem for CaRT waste bins, and bag'n'bin composting toilet users are ?

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9 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Wrong again. You can keep pointing out things as long as you like and as often as you want but they will still be wrong.

 

The amount of poo in the nappy is not the problem. It is the amount of offensive waste in the nappy that is the issue and the one that appears in law. As I showed above a typical family will produce circa 5KG of offensive body excrement in the fouled nappies per week that will go into the bin. The same weight of waste from a dry toilet for 2.

It is the amount of offensive waste that is controlled going into a bin and being monitored for transport - and what is important to the guys on the picking line.

There are at least 5 million nappies a day going into the system which is circa 750,000Kg of offensive waste per day.

 

Your numbers for amount of baby poo simply don't add up -- when was the last time you changed a full nappy?

 

And all this is still irrelevant, because 99.99% of them don't go into CaRT waste bins, and that's all that matters here.

 

Even if there were a hundred million nappies a year put into non-CaRT bins it wouldn't make the slightest difference as to whether CaRT can allow bag'n'binners to carry on doing what they've been doing.

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4 minutes ago, IanD said:

Which is why used nappies are not a problem for CaRT waste bins, and bag'n'bin composting toilet users are ?

Wrong again.

It is all the excrement from a body that is classed as offensive waste, wee and poo. Hence 5Kg per baby per week.

Cant you add up?

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Just now, Dr Bob said:

Wrong again.

It is all the excrement from a body that is classed as offensive waste, wee and poo. Hence 5Kg per baby per week.

Cant you add up?

Still irrelevant. Stop dropping dead cats and read my last post.

Edited by IanD
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6 minutes ago, IanD said:

Your numbers for amount of baby poo simply don't add up -- when was the last time you changed a full nappy?

This morning.  Why?

One of the grandchildren needed a nappy change so I did it.

6 minutes ago, IanD said:

And all this is still irrelevant, because 99.99% of them don't go into CaRT waste bins, and that's all that matters here.

No it isnt. It is about waste transfer laws and effect on picking lines. The CRT have got the same issue with nappies. According to your input (and Alans) the crt will be in breach of the transfer laws if more than one boat puts their weeks load of nappies in one bin. I cant see that being right.

 

Not taken my bet then? That says a lot.

6 minutes ago, IanD said:

Still irrelevant. Stop dropping dead cats and read my last post.

Totally relevant.

The 7Kg is offensive waste, not poo. You are trying to convince peeps that nappies contain a small fraction of the offensive stuff compared to dry toilets which is clearly untrue. Donald tried to do that ....and failed.

Edited by Dr Bob
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