C&RT say don't empty your compost toilet in our bins.

[doratheexplorer]

3 minutes ago, Midnight said:

Actually I think it is. When just a few people where bag & binning it was within the waste transfer rules
CaRT based the original guidance on the above. Things change - guidance changes.

 

Even if that were true, and not just surmising, it still doesn't get CRT off the hook.  The Boating Handbook should have been clear if that were the case.  Maximum amounts should have been stated and it should have been said that if dry loos became more popular, they would have to be stopped.  None of that happened. 

 

In any case, as has been pointed out before, CRT used that words 'should not, rather than 'shall not' or must not'.  Because they know this rule is unenforceable.

 

[Dr Bob]

1 hour ago, Jon johan said:

I see it that a boat with a composting toilet is not really geared up for the amount of waste two people produce. The lack of storage space, and the timescale needed to properly treat it just doesn’t add up.

It is then going into the bins, still wet, and I did experience this when lifting a bin lid last summer.

It’s not acceptable really, and I’m not surprised it has become an issue.

That is not the waste that comes out of the solids bucket. If its wet then that is the composition of a poo and wee mixed that should not be put in a bin -allthough millions of nappies go in each day. The output of the solids bucket is almost dry - the consistency of horse manure (ish).

What you experienced is not the topic being discussed in the original subject from Damien.

 

[doratheexplorer]

1 minute ago, Chagall said:

That may also be part of the issue, but C&RT, whilst having Biffa at their backs and possible curtailment of collection, have not shown to have consulted with anybody before making the instant decision and about turn, or even offered a sensible amount of time for those dry toilet owners (who do not compost) to make alternative arrangements. Hence I suspect there will be more of what Mafi discovered...i.e blocked elsans. 

Exactly,  beware of unintended consequences.

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Midnight said:

Actually I think it is. When just a few people where bag & binning it was within the waste transfer rules
CaRT based the original guidance on the above. Things change - guidance changes.

 

 

There is probably a lot of truth in that, but having said that I don't think anyone at C&RT actually read the 'small print' of the legal requirements, and, if they did, they did not 'print' the requirements within their 'advice'.

 

 

Even the 7kg limit is required to be put into the correct 'Tiger Striped' bags (NOT standard black-bin-bags) so that the bin sorters know to leave that bag alone and divert it to landfill.

Black bags are split open and hand sorted - not nice for the operators / sorters when they het a hanfull of poo-cpvered coconut fibre or wood shavings.

 

How many boaters would go out and buy the special bags ?

No - they'd just use what they had - no one would ever know who it was that had deposited it, it's just a Black bag of rubbish.

 

Cynical Moi ?

[nbfiresprite]

 

1 hour ago, Jon johan said:

I see it that a boat with a composting toilet is not really geared up for the amount of waste two people produce. The lack of storage space, and the timescale needed to properly treat it just doesn’t add up.

It is then going into the bins, still wet, and I did experience this when lifting a bin lid last summer.

It’s not acceptable really, and I’m not surprised it has become an issue.

Quite so, according to friend who's a doctor, the average aduit produces each year 200kg's of soild waste (Number 2's) and about 800 litres of urine,

[Jon johan]

2 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

That is not the waste that comes out of the solids bucket. If its wet then that is the composition of a poo and wee mixed that should not be put in a bin -allthough millions of nappies go in each day. The output of the solids bucket is almost dry - the consistency of horse manure (ish).

What you experienced is not the topic being discussed in the original subject from Damien.

 

It was definitely solids, with sawdust or something, and I doubt it had been stored previously.

Also, I didn’t notice any other person present at the time, were you hiding?

[Dr Bob]

Just now, Jon johan said:

It was definitely solids, with sawdust or something, and I doubt it had been stored previously.

Also, I didn’t notice any other person present at the time, were you hiding?

There are a lot of toilets where wee and poo and sawdust are bagged and thrown away. That is not a good idea but still allowed under waste regulations if under 7Kgs. If it appeared liquid it is likely it is one of these. Solids only buckets dont appear as liquids. Did it smell - if it did and it was liquid then it is not the subject of what Damien was discussing.

No it wasnt me. I do not put my solids in CRT bins. Are you accusing me of doing so? If so please do not.

[Jon johan]

4 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

There are a lot of toilets where wee and poo and sawdust are bagged and thrown away. That is not a good idea but still allowed under waste regulations if under 7Kgs. If it appeared liquid it is likely it is one of these. Solids only buckets dont appear as liquids. Did it smell - if it did and it was liquid then it is not the subject of what Damien was discussing.

No it wasnt me. I do not put my solids in CRT bins. Are you accusing me of doing so? If so please do not.

It so happens that I do recognise waste when I see and smell it.

I did not accuse you of dumping it, at best I accused you of looking over my shoulder at the time, (my using a whiff of sarcasm).

You seemed to be suggesting that you knew better than me, so I can only assume you were looking over my shoulder when I came across it.

 

[Dr Bob]

Just now, Jon johan said:

It so happens that I do recognise waste when I see and smell it.

I did not accuse you of dumping it, at best I accused you of looking over my shoulder at the time, (my using a whiff of sarcasm).

You seemed to be suggesting that you knew better than me, so I can only assume you were looking over my shoulder when I came across it.

 

So which waste was it. Mixed poo and wee or just solid dried poo? Please be specific.

21 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Black bags are split open and hand sorted - not nice for the operators / sorters when they het a hanfull of poo-cpvered coconut fibre or wood shavings.

No they are not. Have you ever seen a picking line? No, obviously not.

Bags are split and tipped onto the picking line. Only the hand picked stuff comes off for recycle. The rest on the belt ie nappies are untouched. There are a lot worse thing on the belt than double bagged solids from a dry toilet. These things are designed so peeps dont have to handle the bad stuff.

[Jon johan]

Just now, Dr Bob said:

So which waste was it. Mixed poo and wee or just solid dried poo? Please be specific.

It was solid poo, but probably quite fresh. I doubt it had even been composted for a week, and it should not be in the bin.

(That is my own personal view). Either compost it as specified, or get a pump out or cassette.

All the comparison posts regarding nappies is not acceptable. This is large scale human waste going into the nearest rubbish bin, and with the increasing popularity of composting toilets, will only become a bigger issue.

 

[haggis]

32 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

That is not the waste that comes out of the solids bucket. If its wet then that is the composition of a poo and wee mixed that should not be put in a bin -allthough millions of nappies go in each day. The output of the solids bucket is almost dry - the consistency of horse manure (ish).

What you experienced is not the topic being discussed in the original subject from Damien.

 

Millions of nappies??? A wee bit of exaggeration there perhaps? I think there might be a wee bit of straw clutching going on with your apparent obsession with nappies. 

 

haggis

[IanD]

50 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Repeating myself for the umpeenth time.  The issue is not about the poo being produced.  The issue is that last thursday and for years up to that point, CRT say it was ok.  Then, out of the blue on friday, they say it's not ok.  When people have bought loos costing nearly £1000 because it's deemed 'ok'.  That's not acceptable and I predict the usually CRT fudge over the next few years.

Just checking -- was this immediately following the sentence that said "The waste should be composted", which you ignored?

 

See midnight's post above -- when only a few people did it CaRT allowed you to get away with dumping poo in their bins, now more people are doing it they need to stop it.

 

Circumstances have changed. You were never guaranteed any right to carry on binning it forever, in fact you were asked/advised not to, but chose to bin it because it was convenient for you and the practice wasn't actually banned.

 

A rule change with no warning is not the right way to do it. A rule change which is necessary is, with sufficient notice given to change. Sea toilets all over again...

Edited February 18, 2021 by IanD

[ditchcrawler]

36 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Even if that were true, and not just surmising, it still doesn't get CRT off the hook.  The Boating Handbook should have been clear if that were the case.  Maximum amounts should have been stated and it should have been said that if dry loos became more popular, they would have to be stopped.  None of that happened. 

 

In any case, as has been pointed out before, CRT used that words 'should not, rather than 'shall not' or must not'.  Because they know this rule is unenforceable.

 

In my book C&RT still have not made any official announcement, it just went out to people who read Damion's missives. If C&RT are making such a change of policy then surly it should publicise it properly 

36 minutes ago, nbfiresprite said:

 

Quite so, according to friend who's a doctor, the average aduit produces each year 200kg's of soild waste (Number 2's) and about 800 litres of urine,

I'm above average than and still the doc says I don't drink enough

[ditchcrawler]

11 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

In my book C&RT still have not made any official announcement, it just went out to people who read Damion's missives. If C&RT are making such a change of policy then surly it should publicise it properly 

 

It seems I am wrong 

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/enjoy-the-waterways/boating/boating-blogs-and-features/boating-team/game-of-thrones-boat-toilet-waste-disposal

 

 

Composting toilets are increasing in popularity, particularly in areas with few facilities or very busy areas that suffer from frequently malfunctioning pump-out machines or Elsan units. Composting can be a great solution, but there are some important considerations for people choosing this approach.

The main thing to consider with compost toilets on boats is having sufficient space to compost solids correctly. Solids can take anything from three months to twelve months to break down into harmless compost. And as anyone who has ever lived on a boat for any length of time will tell you, space is always at a premium. 

As the waste from a composting toilet may not have enough time to decompose sufficiently on board the boat before it needs emptying, this waste will still need to be disposed of in an appropriate way – for example a suitable composting site away from the canal. It should not be put in our bins – and absolutely must not be disposed of on or near the towpaths. Liquid waste can be emptied down an Elsan point. With the increasing popularity of composting toilets, we are hoping to provide facilities for solid waste from composting loos in future. Please don’t ever dump liquid and solid waste on the towpath or into the water. 

What to do and what not to do

[IanD]

25 minutes ago, haggis said:

Millions of nappies??? A wee bit of exaggeration there perhaps? I think there might be a wee bit of straw clutching going on with your apparent obsession with nappies. 

 

haggis

It's not millions, it's only a quarter of a ton of nappies per bag-of-poo-equivalent -- that's only about a thousand... ?

[DaveP]

5 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

It seems I am wrong 

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/enjoy-the-waterways/boating/boating-blogs-and-features/boating-team/game-of-thrones-boat-toilet-waste-disposal

 

 

Composting toilets are increasing in popularity, particularly in areas with few facilities or very busy areas that suffer from frequently malfunctioning pump-out machines or Elsan units. Composting can be a great solution, but there are some important considerations for people choosing this approach.

The main thing to consider with compost toilets on boats is having sufficient space to compost solids correctly. Solids can take anything from three months to twelve months to break down into harmless compost. And as anyone who has ever lived on a boat for any length of time will tell you, space is always at a premium. 

As the waste from a composting toilet may not have enough time to decompose sufficiently on board the boat before it needs emptying, this waste will still need to be disposed of in an appropriate way – for example a suitable composting site away from the canal. It should not be put in our bins – and absolutely must not be disposed of on or near the towpaths. Liquid waste can be emptied down an Elsan point. With the increasing popularity of composting toilets, we are hoping to provide facilities for solid waste from composting loos in future. Please don’t ever dump liquid and solid waste on the towpath or into the water. 

What to do and what not to do

One important part of the page also needs including here:

 

Last date edited: 15 February 2021

 

Previously, it said that compost could be placed in the bins in appropriately labelled bags.  So, Damian's email was the first anyone had heard about this change in policy, now this page has been updated - and surreptitiously!  If it's a blog, then the previous Nov '17 entry should be marked as superseded and a new blog entry made.  In any case it should be made clear what has been changed between the original page in 2017 and the new advice. 

[Jerra]

40 minutes ago, haggis said:

Millions of nappies??? A wee bit of exaggeration there perhaps? I think there might be a wee bit of straw clutching going on with your apparent obsession with nappies. 

 

haggis

The 5 year average for the number of births per year according to the ONS is 756,862.   If we assume an average of 3 nappies per day that is about 2.27 million nappies per day just for kids up to age 1.   I don't think "millions" is an exaggeration.

Edited February 18, 2021 by Jerra

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, Jerra said:

The 5 year average for the number of deaths per year according to the ONS is 756,862.   If we assume an average of 3 nappies per day that is about 2.27 million nappies per day just for kids up to age 1.   I don't think "millions" is an exaggeration.

 

 

Not quite sure how using the annual death rate to calculate the number of nappies works ?

Is there some hidden link ?

[haggis]

5 minutes ago, Jerra said:

The 5 year average for the number of deaths per year according to the ONS is 756,862.   If we assume an average of 3 nappies per day that is about 2.27 million nappies per day just for kids up to age 1.   I don't think "millions" is an exaggeration.

Ah, but I don't think millions of nappies are being put in CRT bins which is what we were talking about.  Not sure what the number of deaths has to do with the number of nappies though:-) A miss type I assume.

 

haggis

[Jerra]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Not quite sure how using the annual death rate to calculate the number of nappies works ?

Is there some hidden link ?

Whoops it mist be covid getting to me it should read births.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Jerra said:

Whoops it mist be covid getting to me it should read births.

 

 

Here , have a freeby :

 

There were 640,370 live births in England and Wales in 2019, a decrease of 2.5% since 2018 and a 12.2% decrease since the most recent peak in 2012.

[Jerra]

Wrong thinking.

Edited February 18, 2021 by Jerra

[Momac]

6 hours ago, Jerra said:

Well IMO it is the sheer quantity/weight of feaces compared to the amount in say the same weight of nappies or cat litter.

 

Just my opinion other opinions are available.

I  imagined it would be a small quantity from a composting toilet -  eg a bucket full?

What quantity are we talking about?

[Dr Bob]

1 hour ago, haggis said:

Millions of nappies??? A wee bit of exaggeration there perhaps? I think there might be a wee bit of straw clutching going on with your apparent obsession with nappies. 

 

haggis

 

Have you done the sums?

Birth rate of babies in the UK is around 750K a year. Therefore likely circa 1 million babies in nappies at the current time (assuming up to 18 month old). Babies start off with around 10 nappies a day at birth up to say 5 a day when 18 months. My limited maths says that is over 5 million nappies a day put in bins. Very little of this goes into dedicated nappy recycling. The rest goes on picking lines and is either land filled or incinerated.

Would you dispute those figures. The data is easily available.

It is quite shocking when you think about it. This is a huge amount of offensive waste being disposed of in black bin sacks.

 

 

 

36 minutes ago, haggis said:

Ah, but I don't think millions of nappies are being put in CRT bins which is what we were talking about.  Not sure what the number of deaths has to do with the number of nappies though:-) A miss type I assume.

 

haggis

No, but they are being put on the councils picking line which is the key thing everyone seems to be objecting to.

[Hudds Lad]

47 minutes ago, DaveP said:

One important part of the page also needs including here:

 

Last date edited: 15 February 2021

 

Previously, it said that compost could be placed in the bins in appropriately labelled bags.  So, Damian's email was the first anyone had heard about this change in policy, now this page has been updated - and surreptitiously!  If it's a blog, then the previous Nov '17 entry should be marked as superseded and a new blog entry made.  In any case it should be made clear what has been changed between the original page in 2017 and the new advice. 

 

according to my better half who does Twitter, they were asking people to flag any reference in their literature/T&C's they hadn't already changed so it could be updated.

 

i'll ask her later if she can find it again, she's busy on video calls at the moment