C&RT say don't empty your compost toilet in our bins.

[doratheexplorer]

14 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

Does anyone still use that? Everyone I know uses a capful of  bio laundry washing liquid or a product like Ordorloss containing enzymes to facilitate aerobic decomposition. Many other cassette and pump-out owners use nothing at all.  

I do, because I prefer my boat not to stink.  Not tried Odourloss, but using bio liquid for an extended period causes smells to build up slowly.  Nose blindness means you may not notice.

[doratheexplorer]

17 minutes ago, blackrose said:

I think the arguments about who's responsible, what the rules were, what the rules are now, who said what to whom, etc, can go on until the cows come home.

 

But what's becoming clearer is that if one doesn't have access to a compost heap to complete the full composting process, then installing a composting toilet on a boat is probably a bad idea.

It will be interesting to see what happens now.  Assumming friday's announcement is right, and CRT's official line is no solid waste in bins, then I predict:

 

1.  Most boaters with composting loos will carry on using them.  They'll put the waste into black bin bags, and into the biffa bins and say nothing.

 

2.  This will go on (quietly) for a few years and nothing much will happen.

 

3.  In end Biffa will simply walk away from the contract and none of the bins will be emptied.

 

The problem is, enforcing this rule is not possible.  If I'd just spent close to £1000 on a new toilet, I'd be very loathe to rip it out.  Surely, a better approach from CRT would be to work with biffa, and boaters to provide an acceptable disposal method.  After all, the composting approach is far kinder to the planet than the current leading methods.

[LadyG]

16 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

It will be interesting to see what happens now.  Assumming friday's announcement is right, and CRT's official line is no solid waste in bins, then I predict:

 

1.  Most boaters with composting loos will carry on using them.  They'll put the waste into black bin bags, and into the biffa bins and say nothing.

 

2.  This will go on (quietly) for a few years and nothing much will happen.

 

3.  In end Biffa will simply walk away from the contract and none of the bins will be emptied.

 

The problem is, enforcing this rule is not possible.  If I'd just spent close to £1000 on a new toilet, I'd be very loathe to rip it out.  Surely, a better approach from CRT would be to work with biffa, and boaters to provide an acceptable disposal method.  After all, the composting approach is far kinder to the planet than the current leading methods.

Item 1: I don't know of any alternative acceptable, maybe legal method of sewage disposal via copmostaloos if you don't have an allotment, and a car. 

item 2 in what way is the current (non composting) approach kinder to the planet than sewage farms? 

item 3 boaters are not going to comply with a more difficult 4 system if it does not suit them

item 4 I'm not up to date on current landfill, disposal of methane producing waste, but the whole thing is not going to be environmentally sound, landfill is for inert non recyclable stuff. It is expensive, requires ongoing management., day to day, then year on year. 

 

Edited February 15, 2021 by LadyG

[GUMPY]

13 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

After all, the composting approach is far kinder to the planet than the current leading methods.

Only in a situation where the fecal matter is composted, if fecal matter is dumped in a bin then it is not better for the planet.

 

[IanD]

Just now, doratheexplorer said:

It will be interesting to see what happens now.  Assumming friday's announcement is right, and CRT's official line is no solid waste in bins, then I predict:

 

1.  Most boaters with composting loos will carry on using them.  They'll put the waste into black bin bags, and into the biffa bins and say nothing.

 

2.  This will go on (quietly) for a few years and nothing much will happen.

 

3.  In end Biffa will simply walk away from the contract and none of the bins will be emptied.

 

The problem is, enforcing this rule is not possible.  If I'd just spent close to £1000 on a new toilet, I'd be very loathe to rip it out.  Surely, a better approach from CRT would be to work with biffa, and boaters to provide an acceptable disposal method.  After all, the composting approach is far kinder to the planet than the current leading methods.

Composting is kinder to the planet if that's what is actually done.

 

If it's not, and dumping the uncomposted poo into waste bins means that they have to be treated as hazardous waste, which means the entire bin has to be buried in landfill instead of being sorted and recycled, this is definitely not kind to the planet.

 

Saying "a better approach would be..." assumes that there *is* a better approach which avoids a poo-contaminated bin being buried. It's difficult to see what this could be, once the poo is mixed into the bin it's too late.

 

So it's likely that the only thing that would work is to keep the poo separate and stop it contaminating the whole bin, which means separated collection -- and then to be green, taking this away and composting it properly. In other words, doing what the toilet owner should have done in the first place.

 

Who pays for all this -- and why should they, if they don't have a composting toilet?

 

If composting toilets were installed on the majority of boats and as part of a "Green Canals" strategy CaRT put facilities in place to do this, that would be great -- just like them installing electric charging points all round the system would be for electric boats.

 

If they don't have such a strategy (which I'm sure they don't...), and people have installed composting toilets and then not used them how they're intended to be used -- the clue being in the name, "composting" -- it's difficult to see why CaRT should spend a lot of scarce time and money solving a problem that the toilet owners have effectively created for themselves by not using the toilets as intended.

 

The fact that while there were only a tiny number of them CaRT effectively ignored the problem (or didn't realise how rapidly it was going to get bigger) doesn't change this fact -- more people adopting this wonderful "I can poo and not bother composting it and make getting rid of it somebody else's problem" wheeze has lead to CaRT changing the rules.

 

I have some sympathy for people who spent a grand installing a composting toilet and will now find they can't carry on doing this, but would have far more (indeed, it wouldn't be needed) if they hadn't effectively been abusing the waste disposal system for their own convenience (see what I did there?).

[IanD]

30 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

It will be interesting to see what happens now.  Assumming friday's announcement is right, and CRT's official line is no solid waste in bins, then I predict:

 

1.  Most boaters with composting loos will carry on using them.  They'll put the waste into black bin bags, and into the biffa bins and say nothing.

 

2.  This will go on (quietly) for a few years and nothing much will happen.

 

3.  In end Biffa will simply walk away from the contract and none of the bins will be emptied.

 

The problem is, enforcing this rule is not possible.  If I'd just spent close to £1000 on a new toilet, I'd be very loathe to rip it out.  Surely, a better approach from CRT would be to work with biffa, and boaters to provide an acceptable disposal method.  After all, the composting approach is far kinder to the planet than the current leading methods.

Enforcing the rule is possible as part of the licensing/BSS system, like any other boat checks. If you have a composting toilet, you have to show that you have the means of composting the waste properly (like Peter does) -- in other words, big enough storage/composting facilities, which in practice would mean having a permanent mooring with compost bins plus sufficient semi-digested-poo storage on the boat for travelling away from the mooring.

 

If you don't have this, you're not allowed to have a composting toilet on your canal boat, just like you're not allowed to have a freshwater flush one today which dumps effluent straight into the canal.

 

Actually the two cases are similar if you think about it, except one dumps poo into the canal and the other into a waste bin -- in both cases convenient for the toilet owner, but not for CaRT...

Edited February 15, 2021 by IanD

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, IanD said:

Enforcing the rule is possible as part of the licensing/BSS system, like any other boat checks. If you have a composting toilet, you have to show that you have the means of composting the waste properly (like Peter does) -- in other words, big enough storage/composting facilities, which in practice would mean having a permanent mooring with compost bins plus sufficient semi-digested-poo storage on the boat for travelling away from the mooring. If you don't have this, you're not allowed to have a composting toilet on your canal boat, just like you're not allowed to have a freshwater flush one today which dumps effluent straight into the canal.

 

 

Good idea, but like much of the BSS the examiner only gets to see what the boatr wants him to see, (assuming the examiner CBA to even look).

 

Gas lockers are emptied of rubbish

Fire extinguishers are 'borrowed' for the day from a 'mate'

Composting toilet owner has a big bucket of wood shavings under the bed

 

The next day :

 

All the stuff goes back into the gas locker

The 'mate' gets his extinguishers back

The bag of semi liquid faeces goes into the Biffa-Bin, the bucket goes back to being used for 'home-brew'.

[IanD]

10 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Good idea, but like much of the BSS the examiner only gets to see what the boatr wants him to see, (assuming the examiner CBA to even look).

 

Gas lockers are emptied of rubbish

Fire extinguishers are 'borrowed' for the day from a 'mate'

Composting toilet owner has a big bucket of wood shavings under the bed

 

The next day :

 

All the stuff goes back into the gas locker

The 'mate' gets his extinguishers back

The bag of semi liquid faeces goes into the Biffa-Bin, the bucket goes back to being used for 'home-brew'.

But a bucket of wood shavings under the bed isn't going to be enough, you also need to be able to compost the result, which means probably 3 landside compost bins, which means a mooring where this can be done.

 

Like any other rule people will try and find ways round it, but it's difficult to fake 3 big compost bins on a mooring you haven't got. And once you've got the bins. its easier to use them than it is to bag up and carry the poo to the nearest waste bin and dump it, so job done ?

 

Alternatively if too many people try (and succeed) in fiddling the rules, CaRT will simply ban them completely, like they did with freshwater flush toilets.

 

This will justifiably annoy people like Peter who have been using them responsibly (only a quarter of composting toilet owners, remember...), but it will be another sad example of how some people bending or breaking the rules leads to changes which screw things up for people who were following them.

Edited February 15, 2021 by IanD

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, IanD said:

Like any other rule people will try and find ways round it, but it's difficult to fake 3 big compost bins on a mooring you haven't got.

 

 

That is not going to be popular, that is tantamount to saying CCers cannot have composting toilets, and if you claim "I've got 3 compost heaps on some land in XYZ that I can use, is the examiner going to survey your boat, the drive to your land in XYZ and check before he issues the certificate ?

 

Far better to say (as per the sea-toilets) Composting toilets are not allowed (which is what many Marinas have already done.)

I fully understand that that move would be irritating to the 100 or so boaters that compost correctly.

[doratheexplorer]

52 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Item 1: I don't know of any alternative acceptable, maybe legal method of sewage disposal via copmostaloos if you don't have an allotment, and a car. 

item 2 in what way is the current (non composting) approach kinder to the planet than sewage farms? I didn't say that.  Obviously, I'm talking about CRT working with boaters to facilitate proper composting.  CRT could even sell the product!

item 3 boaters are not going to comply with a more difficult 4 system if it does not suit them

item 4 I'm not up to date on current landfill, disposal of methane producing waste, but the whole thing is not going to be environmentally sound, landfill is for inert non recyclable stuff. It is expensive, requires ongoing management., day to day, then year on year. 

 

 

54 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Only in a situation where the fecal matter is composted, if fecal matter is dumped in a bin then it is not better for the planet.

 

Yes!  Exactly!  That's my point.  I thought that was obvious.

[doratheexplorer]

52 minutes ago, IanD said:

Enforcing the rule is possible as part of the licensing/BSS system, like any other boat checks. If you have a composting toilet, you have to show that you have the means of composting the waste properly (like Peter does) -- in other words, big enough storage/composting facilities, which in practice would mean having a permanent mooring with compost bins plus sufficient semi-digested-poo storage on the boat for travelling away from the mooring.

 

If you don't have this, you're not allowed to have a composting toilet on your canal boat, just like you're not allowed to have a freshwater flush one today which dumps effluent straight into the canal.

 

Actually the two cases are similar if you think about it, except one dumps poo into the canal and the other into a waste bin -- in both cases convenient for the toilet owner, but not for CaRT...

This would be a pretty unreasonable approach since CRT have encouraged the installation of these toilets on boats for years.  I'll be honest, if I had paid out for a composting toilet recently, having checked the CRT were happy with it, I'd be absolutely fuming if I was then told my boat would be a BSS failure as a result.

35 minutes ago, IanD said:

But a bucket of wood shavings under the bed isn't going to be enough, you also need to be able to compost the result, which means probably 3 landside compost bins, which means a mooring where this can be done.

 

Like any other rule people will try and find ways round it, but it's difficult to fake 3 big compost bins on a mooring you haven't got. And once you've got the bins. its easier to use them than it is to bag up and carry the poo to the nearest waste bin and dump it, so job done ?

 

Alternatively if too many people try (and succeed) in fiddling the rules, CaRT will simply ban them completely, like they did with freshwater flush toilets.

 

This will justifiably annoy people like Peter who have been using them responsibly (only a quarter of composting toilet owners, remember...), but it will be another sad example of how some people bending or breaking the rules leads to changes which screw things up for people who were following them.

 

But, and I can't stress this enough, 4 days ago, they weren't breaking the rules!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited February 15, 2021 by doratheexplorer

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

This would be a pretty unreasonable approach since CRT have encouraged the installation of these toilets on boats for years.  I'll be honest, if I had paid out for a composting toilet recently, having checked the CRT were happy with it, I'd be absolutely fuming if I was then told my boat would be a BSS failure as a result.

 

 

I can see both sides, BUT, if the folks who have paid out their £1000 use the toilet CORRECTLY then they would not have to change.

It is the "others" that don't compost properly and just 'crap in a bag' that are causing the problem, and, presumably that is what has led to the 'bin-ban'.

 

Like many things it is the actions of a few that affect the many (or in this case the actions of the many affecting the few)

Edited February 15, 2021 by Alan de Enfield

[IanD]

17 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

This would be a pretty unreasonable approach since CRT have encouraged the installation of these toilets on boats for years.  I'll be honest, if I had paid out for a composting toilet recently, having checked the CRT were happy with it, I'd be absolutely fuming if I was then told my boat would be a BSS failure as a result.

 

But, and I can't stress this enough, 4 days ago, they weren't breaking the rules!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't think CaRT have encouraged their installation, allowed/tolerated is more correct -- they didn't say "please install them" or ban them. But my suspicion is that a ban is on the way if it proves difficult or impossible to make people use them correctly.

 

Rules change all the time as circumstances change. When only a very few people had composting toilets CaRT could turn a blind eye to them dumping poo into the bins, assuming they were aware of it. Now a lot more people are doing it they can't allow this to continue.

 

If you'd paid out for one and we're using it properly, you should be blaming the 75% who don't for all this, not CaRT. If you're one of the 75%, it's your own fault.

Edited February 15, 2021 by IanD

[GUMPY]

I wonder how many users actually contacted cart to ask about disposal and how many said "Oh that will be fine dumping it, it's what everyone does"

?

[doratheexplorer]

14 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

I can see both sides, BUT, if the folks who have paid out their £1000 use the toilet CORRECTLY then they would not have to change.

It is the "others" that don't compost properly and just 'crap in a bag' that are causing the problem, and, presumably that is what has led to the 'bin-ban'.

 

Like many things it is the actions of a few that affect the many (or in this case the actions of the many affecting the few)

I can't get my head around how people still aren't grasping this.  4 days ago, CRT were clearly stating that (to paraphrase you) 'crapping in a bag' is fine.  The problem is the about turn.  If CRT had been consistent in their messaging, then there would be no problem.  If they want to change the rules, then they should consult on it properly and work with boaters towards a solution. 

[Chagall]

I wonder what C&RT's policy is regarding dog waste in their bins, most local councils say its okay to go in the general waste (black) bin.

 

I assume local councils collect the bags from the road and canal side dedicated dog bins, which, (because its not advisable to compost dog waste) Im supposing either goes to landfill or incinerated. 

 

Government advice says human faeces is "non hazardous" but has no obvious such statements regarding dog poo. ( to be fair it might but Im not searching through 104 pages on the search 'dog poo'.) 

 

further edit to add:  that although compost toilets on boats may be a small minority at the moment, I think there will be a high proportion of boat owners with dogs. 

 

 

 

Edited February 15, 2021 by Chagall
added words, to avoid pedantry!

[doratheexplorer]

13 minutes ago, IanD said:

I don't think CaRT have encouraged their installation, allowed/tolerated is more correct -- they didn't say "please install them" or ban them. But my suspicion is that a ban is on the way if it proves difficult or impossible to make people use them correctly.

 

Rules change all the time as circumstances change. When only a very few people had composting toilets CaRT could turn a blind eye to them dumping poo into the bins, assuming they were aware of it. Now a lot more people are doing it they can't allow this to continue.

 

If you'd paid out for one and we're using it properly, you should be blaming the 75% who don't for all this, not CaRT. If you're one of the 75%, it's your own fault.

  I give up.

4 minutes ago, Loddon said:

I wonder how many users actually contacted cart to ask about disposal and how many said "Oh that will be fine dumping it, it's what everyone does"

?

They didn't need to.  The answer is in black and white in the boater's handbook.  Page 60 if you want to check.

Edited February 15, 2021 by doratheexplorer

[GUMPY]

28 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

They didn't need to.  The answer is in black and white in the boater's handbook.  Page 60 if you want to check.

I have never seen let alone read a boaters handbook, it's something that was published decades after I started boating. 

ETA 

When I started boating it was acceptable practice to dig a hole and dump your bucket contents in it.

Edited February 15, 2021 by Loddon

[ditchcrawler]

31 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

I can't get my head around how people still aren't grasping this.  4 days ago, CRT were clearly stating that (to paraphrase you) 'crapping in a bag' is fine.  The problem is the about turn.  If CRT had been consistent in their messaging, then there would be no problem.  If they want to change the rules, then they should consult on it properly and work with boaters towards a solution. 

Probably because most people here think it should have been like this from day one

[tree monkey]

17 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

I can't get my head around how people still aren't grasping this.  4 days ago, CRT were clearly stating that (to paraphrase you) 'crapping in a bag' is fine.  The problem is the about turn.  If CRT had been consistent in their messaging, then there would be no problem.  If they want to change the rules, then they should consult on it properly and work with boaters towards a solution. 

I agree with you over the U turn or lack of consideration for existing users but I suspect this has been forced on them by Biffa, it's likely a justification to withdraw collection services without penalties.

I wasn't going to mention this because it is purely anecdotal but anyway here goes...

I regularly pick up rubbish dumped by boaters, and I'm sure none boaters, alongside the bins and put it actually in the bins because if the bins are blocked they won't be collected.

Recently I have encountered "robust " black bin liners very securely tied up containing what I suspect was bog waste, I didn't check which is why I wasn't going to mention it.

What changed my mind is a recent FB post on a compost bog group reporting bagged waste left on the floor and not in a bin was mentioned as part justification for the change of heart by CRT.

I have no way of confirming this sorry but considering how many people think its appropriate to dump domestic waste on the floor of the bin compound it wouldn't surprise me

 

[ditchcrawler]

31 minutes ago, Chagall said:

I wonder what C&RT's policy is regarding dog waste in their bins, most local councils say its okay to go in the general waste (black) bin.

 

I assume local councils collect the bags from the road and canal side dedicated dog bins, which, (because its not advisable to compost dog waste) Im supposing either goes to landfill or incinerated. 

 

 

 

 

I don't think it goes for hand sorting first. There was a notice on the waste bin at Barbridge saying "no dog waste" but I understand that is another facility C&RT have removed without notice.

[Arthur Marshall]

It's not much different to the dog mess problem, is it? Plenty of dog owners just chuck the bag into the nearest tree or hang it on the fence. Even if the rare one or two put it in a bin, it's still just another example of an individual deciding the results of his action (eating, or dog owning) is someone else's problem. "They" will clear it up. Only now the money for "them" has run out.

[doratheexplorer]

11 minutes ago, tree monkey said:

I agree with you over the U turn or lack of consideration for existing users but I suspect this has been forced on them by Biffa, it's likely a justification to withdraw collection services without penalties.

I wasn't going to mention this because it is purely anecdotal but anyway here goes...

I regularly pick up rubbish dumped by boaters, and I'm sure none boaters, alongside the bins and put it actually in the bins because if the bins are blocked they won't be collected.

Recently I have encountered "robust " black bin liners very securely tied up containing what I suspect was bog waste, I didn't check which is why I wasn't going to mention it.

What changed my mind is a recent FB post on a compost bog group reporting bagged waste left on the floor and not in a bin was mentioned as part justification for the change of heart by CRT.

I have no way of confirming this sorry but considering how many people think its appropriate to dump domestic waste on the floor of the bin compound it wouldn't surprise me

 

Well that's not nice, I agree.  It doesn't change my point though.  This rule change will do nothing to address this sort of anti-social behaviour.  But it will punish all those who have shelled out hundreds in good faith.

[tree monkey]

Just now, doratheexplorer said:

Well that's not nice, I agree.  It doesn't change my point though.  This rule change will do nothing to address this sort of anti-social behaviour.  But it will punish all those who have shelled out hundreds in good faith.

I agree but isn't that always the way, I've had the most bizzare conversations with people trying to find out why they think its perfectly ok to dump waste near the bins but not actually in the bins.

A few people always seem to feck it up for the majority 

[Chagall]

15 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I don't think it goes for hand sorting first. There was a notice on the waste bin at Barbridge saying "no dog waste" but I understand that is another facility C&RT have removed without notice.

I suspect the non composting compost toilet owners will just send it all down the elsan now, what other choice do they have.

 

 I reckon C&RT need to get ready for further elsan blockages of bucket fulls of partially composted waste with the possible additions of coir and sawdust et cetera.  Along with the whole contents of cat litter trays that at least one cat owner seems to suggest they tip into the elsan. 

 

 

Edited February 15, 2021 by Chagall
litter not littler!