Permitted use of Red Diesel?

[Alan de Enfield]

25 minutes ago, Athy said:

Most of us will have some red diesel left in our tanks in April next year; surely we won't be expected to syphon it out and throw it away?

 

 

See post number ?? where the question is answered.

 

Paragraph 5.4.4

 

 

2 minutes ago, Loddon said:

My tank will still be full of red at this rate, do I pump it into the river and refill with white, if I can find any without using a Jerry can?

 

 

See Para 5.4.4 previously quoted.

 

 

 

I have about 2500 litres in my boat tanks - no chance of using that in the next 12 months.

Just keep any receipts of fuel purchases (white) after 1/4/22.

Edited February 11, 2021 by Alan de Enfield

[David Mack]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

See Para 5.4.4 prevuiously quoted.

 

So you don't have to flush your tank, but you are expected to run down your stock of red before 1 April 2022. Which leaves open the question of how much non running down of stock will be permitted by the due date.

Not that it is very likely that the average leisure boater will be held to account anyway.

 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, David Mack said:

 

So you don't have to flush your tank, but you are expected to run down your stock of red before 1 April 2022. Which leaves open the question of how much non running down of stock will be permitted by the due date.

Not that it is very likely that the average leisure boater will be held to account anyway.

 

 

 

I reckon that the way things are I MAY have run down my tank to ~1000 litres and thats subject to getting 150 hours (900 miles) of crusing (10 litres per hour) which I'm not cinfident of achieving this Summer.

[Mike Adams]

We had a similar situation when going to France and back over the last few years. Fill up with Red over here and use White when you fill up over in France. Of course you can never get all the red dye out of the tank so provided  you kept all the receipts for fuel bought in France there wasn't a problem. I think it would be unrealistic to expect people to empty their tanks after the said date, as you have legally purchased it before the law was invoked so as long as you can produce receipts for white after the 2022 date I think you would be OK. So it looks as if we will all be stopping at canalside supermarkets and filling up with cans rather than pay the expensive marina prices.

[Tracy D'arth]

Just do like everyone else is doing, burn red diesel until stopped from doing it, no one is going to leap out from a bridge hole to check your tank, even after April 2022.

I know people who have never declared any tax on any fuel, ever.

Don't ask me how I know this.

 

Besides when I start my engine it generates heat and electricity all the time, I can't prevent it doing either. If the boat happens to be moving at the time, so what? There are no brakes on a boat.

[Sea Dog]

26 minutes ago, Mike Adams said:

So it looks as if we will all be stopping at canalside supermarkets and filling up with cans rather than pay the expensive marina prices.

Shortly after which, we won't be able to buy it at marinas or any other canalside boaty businesses as they will inevitably not be able to compete.

 

Still, by then we'll all be able to use CRTs extensive canalside electric vehicle charging network or else be able to carry hydrogen back from the supermarket, which will be much lighter than diesel...

 

[David Mack]

3 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

or else be able to carry hydrogen back from the supermarket, which will be much lighter than diesel...

 

But if you buy a lot of hydrogen, you might have to make sure you have also bought enough heavy shopping as well, so you don't float away...

[Mike Todd]

2 hours ago, Dave Payne said:

Who is going to know you are running a boat on diesel that has not had the relevant duty paid?

 

Crack on I say

If you are about to do something 'under the radar' it is wiser not to discuss its legality on here first. You do not know who might be listening nor who might have a reason to draw HMRC's attention to the activity. Your 'friend' might not be so happy either., after getting visit regarding unauthroi9sed resale!

[Alan de Enfield]

26 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

If you are about to do something 'under the radar' it is wiser not to discuss its legality on here first. You do not know who might be listening nor who might have a reason to draw HMRC's attention to the activity. Your 'friend' might not be so happy either., after getting visit regarding unauthroi9sed resale!

 

 

GENERAL FORUM RULES & GUIDELINES
 

• It is not permitted to use CWDF to engage in or promote illegal activities

[Cheshire cat]

I don't think the supermarket option will be viable. I've noticed signs on forecourts indicating how little you can take away in cans. 

[Alan de Enfield]

24 minutes ago, Cheshire cat said:

I don't think the supermarket option will be viable. I've noticed signs on forecourts indicating how little you can take away in cans. 

 

 

The amount of petrol you can buy 'in cans' is limited by law, (you can only buy up to 30 litres in cans) however diesel is not limited.

 

 

 

https://www.hse.gov.uk/fireandexplosion/petrol-storage-club-association.htm

 

You can store up to 30 litres of petrol at home or at non-workplace premises without informing your local Petroleum Enforcement Authority (PEA).

You can store it in:

suitable portable metal or plastic containers

one demountable fuel tank

a combination of the above as long as no more than 30 litres is kept

For these purposes 'premises' are as defined in the Health and Safety Work Act, etc. 1974 and includes, for example, motor vehicles, boats and aircraft.

 

What containers can I use to store petrol?

The legislation allows you to store petrol in the following containers:

plastic containers storing up to 10 litres

metal containers storing up to 20 litres

demountable fuel tank up to 30 litres

Suitable portable containers are defined in Schedule 2 (para 6) and Schedule 3 of the regulations. UN approved containers are an example of such containers.

More detailed information on portable petrol storage containers (PDF) - Portable Document Format is available.

 

Does the petrol in the fuel tank of my car count towards the total I can store?

No – the petrol in the fuel tank of your vehicle, including boats and aircraft, does not count when you are calculating the total amount you are storing.

How much petrol can I store on a vehicle?

You can store up to 30 litres of petrol in a maximum of 2 suitable containers in your vehicle.  For the purpose of these Regulations a ‘vehicle’ is interpreted as any type of vehicle so includes boats, aircraft and hovercraft. This type of storage counts towards the total you can store at non workplace premises. Carriage of petrol is covered by the Carriage of Dangerous Goods (CDG) and the European agreement (ADR).

[MarkH2159]

50 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

GENERAL FORUM RULES & GUIDELINES
 

• It is not permitted to use CWDF to engage in or promote illegal activities

Hence my original post being a straightforward question with no suggestion of promoting anything illegal.

 

"Anyway, before I accept his offer of payment in several hundred litres of red diesel I need to know if I can actually use it in my boat without getting caught up in some legal wrangle with the team working for Her Majesty."

Edited February 11, 2021 by MarkH2159
spelling

[David Mack]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

The amount of petrol you can buy 'in cans' is limited by law, (you can only buy up to 30 litres in cans) however diesel is not limited.

 

Not limited in law, but fuel suppliers may impose their own additional restrictions, such as limiting diesel customers to the same quantities as petrol customers.

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, MarkH2159 said:

Hence my original post being a straightforward question with no suggestion of promoting anything illegal.

 

"Anyway, before I accept his offer of payment in several hundred litres of red diesel I need to know if I can actually use it in my boat without getting caught up in some legal wrangle with the team working for Her Majesty."

 

Back off a bit :

 

It was not in response to your post, it was a reply to 

 

 

1 hour ago, Mike Todd said:

Who is going to know you are running a boat on diesel that has not had the relevant duty paid?

 

Crack on I say

 

 

Which is encouraging law breaking.

[Mike Adams]

I have to do this anyway because there are no facilities on the Basingstoke. Just take a 25litre can in the back of the car to Asda. You can soon accumulate 100l or so.

[Mike Todd]

 

18 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Back off a bit :

 

It was not in response to your post, it was a reply to 

 

 

 

 

Which is encouraging law breaking.

Check back - I responded to that, it was not me that said it!

Edited February 11, 2021 by Mike Todd

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, Mike Todd said:

 

Check back - I responded to that, it was not me that said it!

 

Sorry, its another one of those "it picked up the person who quoted it rather than he who wrote it".

[Iain_S]

4 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

The amount of petrol you can buy 'in cans' is limited by law, (you can only buy up to 30 litres in cans) however diesel is not limited.

 

 (snip)

 

 

True, but quite a few forecourt staff are unaware of the minutiae of the petroleum regulations!

I have had "discussions" in relation to diesel in 20 litre jerry cans and petrol in an outboard fuel tank.  

[doratheexplorer]

17 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

 

5.43 The government believes that only a small proportion of private pleasure craft have a separate tank for non-propulsion use only. Given the small number of these craft, the government is minded to maintain their entitlement to use red diesel in the non-propulsion tank, but it will require them to use white diesel for propulsion use. If the government introduces the relief scheme set out above, these users will not be allowed to reclaim from their fuel supplier the duty differential between white and red diesel on the amount of red diesel used for non-propulsion, as this will already have benefited from the rebated rate of duty. However, if the relief scheme is introduced, those using white diesel in their non-propulsion tank will be able to reclaim the duty difference on the white diesel used for non-propulsion, as set out above.

 

 

Problem with this is that I can't see canalside businesses even offering red diesel because of the hassle involved for the tiny amounts they'll sell.

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Problem with this is that I can't see canalside businesses even offering red diesel because of the hassle involved for the tiny amounts they'll sell.

 

Agreed.

Added to which I believe that the canalside retailers will have to spend a lot of money on renewing infrastructure  (as they are not allowed to have any trace of 'red' in their tanks and it is very difficult to remove all traces of the dye. They will also need to beef-up security (maybe underground tanks ?) as white diesel will be a valuable commodity to the ner-do-wells.

 

It shouldn't be too difficult for the fuel-boats who just have the 1000 litre IBC's. One or two with 'white' and one with 'red'.

 

It will inevitably increase the cost and considering the amount a NB uses many folks will go to the garage and fill a couple of Jerry-cans which will probably last 3 or 4 weeks, so not a huge inconvenience.

There could be an environmental cost as the incidences of 'spillage' will become more common as people try to pour from a Jerry-can into a funnel.

How many will invest in a jerry-can pump-out ?

[Sea Dog]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Agreed.

Added to which I believe that the canalside retailers will have to spend a lot of money on renewing infrastructure  (as they are not allowed to have any trace of 'red' in their tanks and it is very difficult to remove all traces of the dye. They will also need to beef-up security (maybe underground tanks ?) as white diesel will be a valuable commodity to the ner-do-wells.

 

It shouldn't be too difficult for the fuel-boats who just have the 1000 litre IBC's. One or two with 'white' and one with 'red'.

 

It will inevitably increase the cost and considering the amount a NB uses many folks will go to the garage and fill a couple of Jerry-cans which will probably last 3 or 4 weeks, so not a huge inconvenience.

There could be an environmental cost as the incidences of 'spillage' will become more common as people try to pour from a Jerry-can into a funnel.

How many will invest in a jerry-can pump-out ?

Yup. And how many canalside fuel stops will stay in the diesel supply business when, even after or disregarding the dye removal, they have to charge, what, £1.50 a litre(?) to cover their higher costs and lower turnover than a roadside retailer?

[LadyG]

I think the stuff I get locally is gas oil, it's certainly red, I sign off it's use for heating. I'm happy enough to continue to use it for heating, and buy some white for propulsion, but no way am I going to pay fuel duty on diesel used for heating and lighting, I expect there will have to be a test case, just  hope it's not me! 

I will keep a log of all miles travelled, propulsion engine hours calculated from that, I'll buy white and keep receipts for that diesel. 

As long as red is available boaters will find it. Its the principle of the thing as much as the money.

Money matters,   it might add 30p per litre, an extra £150-300 per annum. 

Edited February 12, 2021 by LadyG

[doratheexplorer]

18 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Agreed.

Added to which I believe that the canalside retailers will have to spend a lot of money on renewing infrastructure  (as they are not allowed to have any trace of 'red' in their tanks and it is very difficult to remove all traces of the dye. They will also need to beef-up security (maybe underground tanks ?) as white diesel will be a valuable commodity to the ner-do-wells.

 

It shouldn't be too difficult for the fuel-boats who just have the 1000 litre IBC's. One or two with 'white' and one with 'red'.

 

It will inevitably increase the cost and considering the amount a NB uses many folks will go to the garage and fill a couple of Jerry-cans which will probably last 3 or 4 weeks, so not a huge inconvenience.

There could be an environmental cost as the incidences of 'spillage' will become more common as people try to pour from a Jerry-can into a funnel.

How many will invest in a jerry-can pump-out ?

I mentioned all of these points and more when I responded to the consultation.

[Alan de Enfield]

13 minutes ago, LadyG said:

.......... but no way am I going to pay fuel duty on diesel used for heating and lighting, I expect there will have to be a test case, just  hope it's not me! 

 

If you put both Red & White into the same tank then it may well be you - but of course you are entitled as a 'special case'.

 

Have you actually read the proposals ? (It would appear not)

 

You pay for white and then the duty is deducted for the 'domestic' portion - it will work exactly as it currently does for 'Red' with 60/40 split.

 

The only difference being is that instead of duty being ADDED for the propulsion element, the duty will be DEDUCTED from the domestic element.

[David Mack]

37 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

If you put both Red & White into the same tank then it may well be ....

... Rosé.