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How to clean morso stove with back boiler


Rainyday

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Hi,

I have a lovely morso swift to heat up my 52ft narrowboat.  It has a gravity fed back boiler system, no radiators, it just has a pipe that runs along the boat passing the bed and heating water in the calorifier.  The system is older but the stove was brand new, replacing a morso squirrel 2 years ago.

Problem is, It struggles to heat the boat from cold and to keep the boat warm.  I guess because the cold water in the calorifier is making it work hard.  I'm running my engine to heat the water and help it out.  (Once the boat is warm it seems to do well).

 

Is there anything else I can do?

 

Other boat friends have said I need to clean behind the baffle plate but I don't think it has a baffle plate..!  Could be mistaken!?  Does anyone know how to remove them if there is one or how to clean soot build up if there isn't one?  I could only get out soot as far as my hand could reach.  (Photo and video of the insides attached)

 

Also, my chimney above the roof is quite short.  I'm looking at getting a taller replacement chimney but this one seems so well stuck on and I'm scared of yanking too much and doing damage to the chimney/stove installation.  Any tricks besides resorting to an angle grinder?

 

Appreciate any advice!

 

Many thanks,

 

Rachel

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Edited by Rainyday
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18 minutes ago, Rainyday said:

Problem is, It struggles to heat the boat from cold and to keep the boat warm.  I guess because the cold water in the calorifier is making it work hard.  I'm running my engine to heat the water and help it out.  (Once the boat is warm it seems to do well).

 

That is the reason. From cold, the cauliflower is sucking much of the heat in. Some people build bypass systems to bypass the calorifier till the boat is warmer. I assume there are radiators too. Is the system electrically pumped, or does it work by gravity/magic? Bypassing needs to be done carefully to avoid destroying gravity circulation.

 

21 minutes ago, Rainyday said:

Other boat friends have said I need to clean behind the baffle plate but I don't think it has a baffle plate..!  Could be mistaken!?  Does anyone know how to remove them if there is one or how to clean soot build up if there isn't one?  I could only get out soot as far as my hand could reach.  (Photo and video of the insides attached)

There is sometimes an extra baffle plate, which Morso say not to install in a boat. Yours does not have this. The back boiler replaces the main baffle. I see little point in trying to keep behind it clear of ash as it just fills up again almost instantly and don't bother.

22 minutes ago, Rainyday said:

Also, my chimney above the roof is quite short.  I'm looking at getting a taller replacement chimney but this one seems so well stuck on and I'm scared of yanking too much and doing damage to the chimney/stove installation.  Any tricks besides resorting to an angle grinder?

It is usual for chimneys to just be a push fit on to the roof collar. It is likely just stuck with tar and gunk from the fire. Hit it harder! Waggle it about. Eventually it will come off.

Jen

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43 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

I assume there are radiators too. Is the system electrically pumped, or does it work by gravity/magic?

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Rainyday said:

 It has a gravity fed back boiler system, no radiators, it just has a pipe that runs along the boat passing the bed and heating water in the calorifier.

 

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I've now replaced that old chimney, getting it off was difficult again, but what really made the difference was spraying a bit of wd40 where the chimney meets the collar (the thing on top of the boat that the chimney slides onto, dunno if that's patronising to identify the collar but I didn't know what it was called not so long ago). Left it to sink in a few minutes, then the chimney came off relatively easily.

 

I briefly considered checking whether it was a good idea to use silicon lubricant spray for this purpose, but then didn't, for fear it might put me off (!). So I cannot vouch for my method being advisable, I can only say it worked for me

Sorry maybe off topic...?! 

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2 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

There is sometimes an extra baffle plate, which Morso say not to install in a boat. Yours does not have this. The back boiler replaces the main baffle. I see little point in trying to keep behind it clear of ash as it just fills up again almost instantly and don't bother.

Thank you for clearing that up (no pun intended).  Seems a bit strange - it will just fill with ash and become less and less effective with age then?  Other boaters I know give their stove a full clean each year.  If mine doesn't have a way to do this then perhaps eve cleaning the flue will just serve to clog the stove up further!?

2 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

It is usual for chimneys to just be a push fit on to the roof collar. It is likely just stuck with tar and gunk from the fire. Hit it harder! Waggle it about. Eventually it will come off.

Thanks!  Will take my rubber hammer up there!

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2 hours ago, Rainyday said:

Thank you for clearing that up (no pun intended).  Seems a bit strange - it will just fill with ash and become less and less effective with age then?  Other boaters I know give their stove a full clean each year.  If mine doesn't have a way to do this then perhaps eve cleaning the flue will just serve to clog the stove up further!?

Yes, cleaning it once a year is useful, but trying to keep the back face of the back boiler spotlessly clean is a pointless task. You absolutely do need to clean the flue pipe regularly, then rake out stuff from the top of the back boiler. The flue gases need to get up to the chimney. If you don't the flue will clog up and eventually smoke you out.

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It looks like a baffle plate under the flue on your first photo but perhaps I'm not looking at the picture correctly and it is the top of the back boiler. But if there's no baffle plate then what stops the heat going directly up the flue? A baffle plate is there to make the flame and combustion gases travel further before they escape.

 

Anyway, after sweeping the chimney and flue just make sure all the stuff that falls down is cleaned out from whatever it lands on, whether that's the back boiler or baffle plate.

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13 minutes ago, blackrose said:

It looks like a baffle plate under the flue on your first photo but perhaps I'm not looking at the picture correctly and it is the top of the back boiler. But if there's no baffle plate then what stops the heat going directly up the flue? A baffle plate is there to make the flame and combustion gases travel further before they escape.

 

Anyway, after sweeping the chimney and flue just make sure all the stuff that falls down is cleaned out from whatever it lands on, whether that's the back boiler or baffle plate.

It is the back boiler that can be seen. The top of it slopes forward and is the same shape and projection as the cast iron baffle it is a substitute for. It therefore acts as a baffle. On Squirrels and perhaps on Swifts too, there is an additional optional baffle plate directly under and bolted to the base of the top flue exit, which is not installed in this pic. Morso say not to fit this on boat installations. I did install it on mine by mistake. iI clarts up with ash very quickly and is a pain to clear, so I removed it. Morso were right. No one could have predicted that, as Dido Harding would say. ?

Jen

Edited by Jen-in-Wellies
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Back to the OP's original question of the boat being very slow to warm up from cold as the stove is putting most of its effort in to heating up a cold calorifier.

She says there are no radiators. My question is, does the back boiler start overheating and producing steam when the cauliflower is hot and the stove stoked up and running hard? If so, then it needs some radiators to get rid of the heat. If not, then the long pipe runs are acting as radiators sufficient to prevent boiling. If that is the case, then a bypass pipe could be fitted between the connections to the cauliflower, controlled by valves to circulate the water and let the stove get the boat warm, before restoring flow and heating the water.

Jen

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10 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

It is the back boiler that can be seen. The top of it slopes forward and is the same shape and projection as the cast iron baffle it is a substitute for. It therefore acts as a baffle. On Squirrels and perhaps on Swifts too, there is an additional optional baffle plate directly under and bolted to the base of the top flue exit, which is not installed in this pic. Morso say not to fit this on boat installations. I did install it on mine by mistake. iI clarts up with ash very quickly and is a pain to clear, so I removed it. Morso were right. No one could have predicted that, as Dido Harding would say. ?

Jen

 

I have a baffle plate in my Morso Panther. It just rests on the firebricks at the sides. It doesn't get excessively clogged up with ash, but because it forces combustion gases forwards towards the doors it means what when the doors are open to refuel those gases come into the cabin. It probably wouldn't do that if it had a 4m flue/chimney length as specified by Morso as it would be drawing more powerfully. Is that why Morso recommend not to use the baffle plate with the Squirrel on boats?

 

My baffle plate butts up to the back of the stove over the back boiler. I could just bring it forwards by an inch to encourage the gases to go the other way. 

Edited by blackrose
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No baffleplate on mmy Morso, the cast back boiler does the job. Worst part of sweeping the chimney is clearing the muck and bullets from the top of the backboiler. You need to be double jointed. Did have an ash vac but that was more trouble than it was worth.

 

 

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I slid my baffle plate about an inch forward and it has mostly cured the problem. When I put more coal on, the smoke is now drawn to the back of the stove and up the flue instead of around the front and out the doors. But interestingly I now have lots of bits of soot on my roof!

Edited by blackrose
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On 06/02/2021 at 10:22, Jen-in-Wellies said:

My question is, does the back boiler start overheating and producing steam when the cauliflower is hot and the stove stoked up and running hard? If so, then it needs some radiators to get rid of the heat. If not, then the long pipe runs are acting as radiators sufficient to prevent boiling. If that is the case, then a bypass pipe could be fitted between the connections to the cauliflower, controlled by valves to circulate the water and let the stove get the boat warm, before restoring flow and heating the water.

This wouldn't be necessary as by the time the fire has guzzled enough fuel and the and calorifier is hot enough, so is the rest of the boat! :-D

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On 06/02/2021 at 21:02, blackrose said:

because it forces combustion gases forwards towards the doors it means what when the doors are open to refuel those gases come into the cabin. It probably wouldn't do that if it had a 4m flue/chimney length as specified by Morso as it would be drawing more powerfully. Is that why Morso recommend not to use the baffle plate with the Squirrel on boats?

 

My baffle plate butts up to the back of the stove over the back boiler. I could just bring it forwards by an inch to encourage the gases to go the other way. 

Ah someone else has this issue!  I thought it was my bad refuelling skills!  So much smoke and fumes come in when I refuel, especially if it's freezing and not wanting to get going...  ok, definitely gonna buy this longer chimney and see if it helps this.

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10 minutes ago, Rainyday said:
On 06/02/2021 at 10:22, Jen-in-Wellies said:

My question is, does the back boiler start overheating and producing steam when the cauliflower is hot and the stove stoked up and running hard? If so, then it needs some radiators to get rid of the heat. If not, then the long pipe runs are acting as radiators sufficient to prevent boiling. If that is the case, then a bypass pipe could be fitted between the connections to the cauliflower, controlled by valves to circulate the water and let the stove get the boat warm, before restoring flow and heating the water.

This wouldn't be necessary as by the time the fire has guzzled enough fuel and the and calorifier is hot enough, so is the rest of the boat! ?

I was asking the question as it is a possible solution of the problem you say you have with the boat taking too long to heat. In a properly designed back boiler heating system, it should have enough radiators to cope with the output from the back boiler when the stove is going full on. You don't include the calorifier in the calculations at all. Once a cauliflower is warmed up, it takes a negligible amount of heat from the pipe. If there aren't enough radiators, then when the calorifier is warmed up, the back boiler risks overheating and boiling the coolant away.

If the long pipes between the stove and the cauliflower are radiating enough heat in to the boat that they are equivalent to radiators of sufficient size, then you could put bypass valves by the calorifier. This would mean in a cold boat more heat from the stove will go to heating the boat up, rather than the cauliflower. Once the boat is quickly heated up, the flow through the calorifier can be restored to heat the water. It will get the cabin to a comfortable temperature more quickly, which is what you said you wanted.

 

Jen

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28 minutes ago, Rainyday said:

 

Ah someone else has this issue!  I thought it was my bad refuelling skills!  So much smoke and fumes come in when I refuel, especially if it's freezing and not wanting to get going...  ok, definitely gonna buy this longer chimney and see if it helps this.

 

If you have a baffle plate try sliding it forwards like I did, so that there's a gap at the back. It does work and doesn't seem to make much difference to stove efficiency as far as I can tell. What it does do though is leave a bit of soot on your roof.

 

I don't think a longer chimney will help - unless your combined chimney flue length is over 3.5m and the outside chimney is insulated. A bit impractical on a boat.

Edited by blackrose
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1 hour ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

I was asking the question as it is a possible solution of the problem you say you have with the boat taking too long to heat. In a properly designed back boiler heating system, it should have enough radiators to cope with the output from the back boiler when the stove is going full on. You don't include the calorifier in the calculations at all. Once a cauliflower is warmed up, it takes a negligible amount of heat from the pipe. If there aren't enough radiators, then when the calorifier is warmed up, the back boiler risks overheating and boiling the coolant away.

If the long pipes between the stove and the cauliflower are radiating enough heat in to the boat that they are equivalent to radiators of sufficient size, then you could put bypass valves by the calorifier. This would mean in a cold boat more heat from the stove will go to heating the boat up, rather than the cauliflower. Once the boat is quickly heated up, the flow through the calorifier can be restored to heat the water. It will get the cabin to a comfortable temperature more quickly, which is what you said you wanted.

ah I see.  I wonder.  The system does seem to make some sucking noises when it's really hot so wouldn't want to risk pressurising it too much.  (I take this as a sign the system needs topping up)  And someone experienced told me that he's not sure why the gravity system works (as the calorifier is on the floor rather than up high) but it does so perhaps best not to interfere with it.  The pipes are maybe 8m long and do release some heat but not a whole lot.  

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7 minutes ago, Rainyday said:

ah I see.  I wonder.  The system does seem to make some sucking noises when it's really hot so wouldn't want to risk pressurising it too much.  (I take this as a sign the system needs topping up)  And someone experienced told me that he's not sure why the gravity system works (as the calorifier is on the floor rather than up high) but it does so perhaps best not to interfere with it.  The pipes are maybe 8m long and do release some heat but not a whole lot.  

Or it may be that it is boiling, though that is more usually a banging noise as steam forces its way through the pipes. Do you know where the header tank is and what the coolant level is in it?

Another possibility. Do the pipes have finrads on the run? They don't look like conventional radiators, but something like this.

Edited by Jen-in-Wellies
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1 minute ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Or it may be that it is boiling, though that is more usually a banging noise as steam forces its way through the pipes. Do you know where the header tank is and what the coolant level is in it?

Yes there's a grimy tube that's barely transparent anymore so it's hard to see but possible with effort.  That's the one I top up now and then.  Should the level be up top when the system's hot? 

 

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Just now, Rainyday said:

Yes there's a grimy tube that's barely transparent anymore so it's hard to see but possible with effort.  That's the one I top up now and then.  Should the level be up top when the system's hot? 

 

Near the top is good. It will drop when it is cool. I edited my previous post and mentioned finrads. Does your system have them?

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No it doesn't have finrads.  Have just been reading up

https://www.canalboat.co.uk/canal-boats/maintenance/how-to-make-sure-your-narrowboat-is-heating-up-properly-1-4822255

some great advice here.  So what you advise and this person also advises is to have an isolator on the calorifier.  You know, I might even already have this but it's not turned.  Will check when back there tomorrow.  I hear the canal has frozen over :)

Thank you for your help!

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13 minutes ago, Rainyday said:

this person also advises is to have an isolator on the calorifier. 

The coolant still needs to flow, even with the calorifier disabled, so depending on the way it is plumbed, that might not be an isolation valve, but a bypass pipe and valves. The diagram you link to is for a diesel heater, not a stove back boiler.

When you go there next, can you sketch a diagram of the pipe layout and post it?

Edited by Jen-in-Wellies
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