Old Tug -Tongue and Groove - no insulation ??

[JLees]

Bit of an odd one. Helping a friend look for a boat, found an old Malcom Braine Tug in need of a bit of work but with good bones. Thing is as far as I can tell without digging holes in the wall it looks like there’s no insulation layer between the v solid T&G lining and the steel work. Not quite sure what to make of that. Anyone had any experiences or can cast a bit of light?

Not too worried about the warmth aspect to be honest, all small spaces and stoves should do the trick but that’s all I’ve got as far as a perspective goes! Also during my youff I’m fairly sure I was on several boats without insulation but I was young and it’s all a bit fuzzy:)

[David Mack]

Many of Malcolm Braine's boats were built with a wooden cabin - t&g boarding on timber frames, skinned with masonite (which was basically a thick outdoor-grade hardboard). Is this one which has since had the masonite replaced by a steel skin? 

Clues will be the presence of quite substantial interior framing, and thicker t&g than would be used just for lining a steel cabin.

[JLees]

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

Many of Malcolm Braine's boats were built with a wooden cabin - t&g boarding on timber frames, skinned with masonite (which was basically a thick outdoor-grade hardboard). Is this one which has since had the masonite replaced by a steel skin? 

Clues will be the presence of quite substantial interior framing, and thicker t&g than would be used just for lining a steel cabin.

Thanks David, I’m 90% certain it was steel (tho now you’ve got me thinking! - so I’m going to check! But I’ll attach a photo which sounds pretty much what you’re talking about I think?

[dave moore]

Those wooden frames are a dead giveaway. Malcolm built wooden cabin boats early on, frames first then timber. If it’s steel on the outside, then I’m pretty sure that it’s been reskinned at some point. The work could have been done at Norton Canes by Graham Edgson and team, he took over from Malcolm in 86 and I remember several such jobs over the years. The framing and panelling were removed, leaving just the planking and support frames, then a new steel skin was carefully added....job done!

[JLees]

OK great, gotta figure there must have been some kind of waterproof membrane added between the wood and the steel, otherwise the wood would just rot?

[Keeping Up]

Many boats relied just on the air-gap between the T&G and the steelwork, created by the wooden support battens which were firmly fixed to the steel with no waterproof membrane. The only thing seriously prone to rot would be the battens - which could be hardwood, or else just softwood impregnated with preservative.

[JLees]

Thanks guys - you’ve brought a little light into the darkness!:)

[dave moore]

In the Norton Canes reskins I’ve seen, the steel was laid over the timber cabin, the only addition being galvanised plates nailed to the cabin and cabin top edges to protect the timber from the welding heat. The chunky cabin timbers themselves made effective insulation. Which boat is this? I may be able to shed a little light if it’s one I know of.

[blackrose]

 

On 04/02/2021 at 14:01, Keeping Up said:

Many boats relied just on the air-gap between the T&G and the steelwork, created by the wooden support battens which were firmly fixed to the steel with no waterproof membrane. The only thing seriously prone to rot would be the battens - which could be hardwood, or else just softwood impregnated with preservative.

 

Sounds like it would be fine until you introduce a stove into the mix and then you'd have serious condensation problems.

[JLees]

On 05/02/2021 at 12:40, dave moore said:

In the Norton Canes reskins I’ve seen, the steel was laid over the timber cabin, the only addition being galvanised plates nailed to the cabin and cabin top edges to protect the timber from the welding heat. The chunky cabin timbers themselves made effective insulation. Which boat is this? I may be able to shed a little light if it’s one I know of.

Thanks Dave, the boat is Merlin. If you know anything of it, I'd be keen to hear! I guess I was wondering amongst other thoughts - would this make for crazy condensation/

[David Mack]

Unless the interior has just been repainted, all that white paint wouldn't be that white if there was a condensation problem.

[dave moore]

I’ve no direct knowledge of Merlin, I’ll try Graham Edgson soon, if nothing then I’ll call Malcolm.

[dave moore]

I’ve just spoken with Graham and he has no knowledge of a tug called Merlin. He wonders whether the name is original, also that the work could have been done at Canal Transport Services, the Yard next door. I’ll enquire, I’m there next week.

[JLees]

Thank you very much! Would a photo and a spec or two help? 

[blackrose]

On 10/02/2021 at 01:27, David Mack said:

Unless the interior has just been repainted, all that white paint wouldn't be that white if there was a condensation problem.

 

I may have misunderstood but I didn't think there was any heating in the boat yet

[JLees]

nope but previous owner had it on a hook up so figure she was using plug in radiators etc

 

[David Mack]

If the boat had been occupied, then there would be moisture in the air from occupants breathing, cooking, showers etc. So if there is an insulation problem then there would be signs of condensation and mould growth, unless the boat interior has been repainted for sale. So if that is not obviously new paintwork, then I reckon you don't have a problem.

[JLees]

Yeah I reckon you're right - its not a new paint job, so figure all good. Thanks for the thoughts - appreciated

[Rose Narrowboats]

To me that doesn't look like one of Mr Braine's - the T&G in his boats had a simple vee shaped groove, and the frames aren't of quite the right proportions or spacing to me eye. Dave's suggestion of CTS is a good one.

 

I'm sat nice and warm in one of Malcolm's cabins as type this and it's -5C outside. In terms of insulation the pitch pine used by Malcolm (and I expect CTS cabins were very similar) was one and an eighth inches thick so it has a fairly good R-value. They originally had a roofing felt (or tar paper) layer between the pine and the masonite outer layer. In 1994 when we put the steel skin on in place of the masonite we replaced the felt like for like and welded carefully, The woodwork is 50 years old this year, and bar a few marks caused by leaking windows is perfect condition. Condensation has never been an issue.

 

I was pleasantly surprised to see that according to the current thread on here about coal, I'm not using any more than anyone else; about 10kg per day for all my heating and hot water despite having relatively large windows.

[Movin' on]

This is the one at VC marine - I cant do links but someone else will follow this I'm sure

[Rose Narrowboats]

1 hour ago, Movin' on said:

This is the one at VC marine - I cant do links but someone else will follow this I'm sure

https://vcmarine.co.uk/boat-sales/merlin-60ft-tug-style-narrowboat/

 

It definitely is one of Malcolm's then.

[BWM]

A lot of his from that time were originally fitted with a Mercedes engine. 

[ditchcrawler]

11 hours ago, Rose Narrowboats said:

 

I'm sat nice and warm in one of Malcolm's cabins as type this and it's -5C outside. In terms of insulation the pitch pine used by Malcolm (and I expect CTS cabins were very similar) was one and an eighth inches thick so it has a fairly good R-value. 

About half that of Rockwool

[dave moore]

I’ve been at Canal Transport Sevices today. I asked Denis, the owner about Merlin. He said it rang a bell but he couldn’t be sure. They’ve done quite a few over the years!! He’s thinking about it. I’ll add further comment if useful.

[JLees]

On 19/02/2021 at 17:54, dave moore said:

I’ve been at Canal Transport Sevices today. I asked Denis, the owner about Merlin. He said it rang a bell but he couldn’t be sure. They’ve done quite a few over the years!! He’s thinking about it. I’ll add further comment if useful.

Thanks Dave