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Electrical issues - please point me in the right direction.


MartinW

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My boat was built around 2007. It has been sitting around without much use for the last ten years before I recently bought it. It has a shoreline galvanic transformer, Sterling 1800w sine-wave inverter with remote switch, Mikuni MX40 heater and two alternators on the Vetus M4.15/Technodrive TMC60 powerplant. There is a switchover control from shore to off to inverter and a 240v triple trip panel. From my searches on the forum I realise that some of those items may already be red-flags but please forgive my foolishness in not knowing that sooner.

I selected 'shorepower' on the switch, plugged in my suitcase generator to the shoreline socket and flipped the 240 trips. The generator sensed load and speeded up but nothing on the boat worked, whatever the position of the individual 12v master switches. The boat 'ignition' key was not turned as I felt that it wouldn't logically need to be left outside in such a vulnerable position.

Both red key masters (presumably one for each battery/bank) were 'on'. Deciding that discretion were the better part of foolish valour I switched everything off and started to check over the engine (which I knew was last started in December). Belts tightened and levels done I was delighted when it fired straight up and settled to a good, steady, smooth idle. There was a constant beeping but no lights showing on the 'dash' and a good 14v showing. Then I noticed the blue wire floating free from the larger alternator. Bugger! I realise that I should really wait until the boatyard electrician can find a spot for me but I should like very much to have a clue where to look first. I cannot see a connector that the blue wire has escaped-from and know that not all installations use all the alternator wires but....

As an aside, why is everything in the engine bay so hard to even see, let alone work-on, I feel that it could be mirror-lined to advantage and that even tough vertically challenged myself, Hobbits would make superior boat-techs.

 

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26 minutes ago, MartinW said:

The generator sensed load and speeded up but nothing on the boat worked, whatever the position of the individual 12v master switches.

Where to start?!

When you say nothing on the boat worked, is that 240V sockets, 12V stuff like lights, pumps, or both?

Do you have a separate battery charger, or is it built in to the inverter, so the inverter is actually a combi? What is the model number of the inverter, or combi?

 

Most importantly, do you have any sort of multimeter that can be used to check voltages at various points? Without one, diagnosis is going to be near impossible.

I'm not even sure what it is you are worried about, or is not working.

Jen

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I feel your major issue here is one of unfamiliarity and insufficient technical knowledge to work out what's what from first principles. You need someone with both to look at your system and explain it to you, after which you'll also know what, if anything, needs fixing. Is there anyone where you moor who has such skills? Is there a boatyard nearby who might have someone who could attend for a small fee? Covid makes it more difficult (other than for professionals), but if you say where you are often someone here will be able to recommend someone or even pop round themselves if practicable.

Edited by Sea Dog
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First the 240V trip. What tripped An MCB, RCD, or RBO. If it was one of the latter two in a "garage" sized mains distribution box on the boat I would suspect either an earth fault on the boat or an incompatibility between the way the generator/inverter/boat mains earths. Better experts  than myself will be along to try to help you with that one. We need to know more about what tripped - a photo will help.

 

If the alternator has been changed in the last 14 years the blue wire may well be redundant, especially if the old alternator had been modified for an advanced controller.  As Tracy says send a photo

 

Beeping is not how I would describe the sound a typical charge/low oil pressure/overheat alarm makes, its more like a continuous scream. We need to know where this beep was coming form, I wonder if the inverter has been left turned on so the batteries are flat so as soon as you applied a charge to the batteries the inverter low battery alarm sounded.

 

It seem the 12V engine system is working so what about the 12V domestic stuff like the water pump and any 12V lights? If they do not work I suspect discharged and now probably  ruined domestic batteries. Did any 12V domestic stuff work while the engine was running and revving at (say) 1200 rpm?

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Thank you Tony and others, I guess that since the red cut-offs were both still 'on' that the leisure batteries may well be flattened and ruined. Nothing tripped on the 240v circuit, I just expected everything to work as the mains switch was set to that rather than 'inverter. The inverter is a pro-power Q 1800w. I shall carry-on my investigations to try and rule some things out/make remote diagnosis possible. Thanks again for your time.

 

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18 minutes ago, MartinW said:

Thank you Tony and others, I guess that since the red cut-offs were both still 'on' that the leisure batteries may well be flattened and ruined. Nothing tripped on the 240v circuit, I just expected everything to work as the mains switch was set to that rather than 'inverter. The inverter is a pro-power Q 1800w. I shall carry-on my investigations to try and rule some things out/make remote diagnosis possible. Thanks again for your time.

 

 

So to be clear when you set the mains supply selector switch to shoreline and ran the generator no mains sockets on the boat or other mains powered equipment worked. If this is the case it suggests some sort of switch is still off or a fuse has blown/MCB tripped. I hope the boat has a mains "garage" type distribution board and if so all "switches" on it need to be set to the on position. That is unless the overload trip on the generator has not tripped. If it has could you have an immersion heater that has been left on and a smaller output generator. That might explain flat domestic batteries as well.

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Having bought a boat with a set of partially working components in an unknown configuration the most useful thing I did was to trace the wiring,  labelling cables add I went. Drawing it all into a rough circuit diagram at the same time all slowly made sense. It took time but I'm sure it saved me lots of time (and money) in the end.

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Hello all and thank you again. Zoe at Pennine Boats in Skipton kindly arranged for Jonathan to call in on his way past today  instead of tomorrow, as snow is forecast. His Snap-On multi-tester was much better than mine, it even had a magnetic base! Jonathan did a load test and diagnosed that the batteries were low, but fine, and that the lack of charging was down to the cut-off switch being duff. Evidently they are very susceptible to damp, rust and a consequent lack of connectivity. One new switch later and the engine is charging nicely on both alternators (The loose blue wire being just as some suggested, a surplus thing) The 240 volt 'garage' trips needed a little cleaning of contacts and proper installation of the cover and that side of the boat worked under shoreline and also, once the batteries had charged up enough to get the inverter cracking, did the 12volt. I was feeling very happy until we tried the Mikuni heater which made some of the right noises but then manifested a big diesel leak which turned out to be a broken, previously soldered,  rigid feed pipe, Jonathan had to leave and find some suitable 'flexi' hose to make up a more resilient connection so fingers crossed that works in the next couple of days.

On the subject of battery charging, Jonathan's parting suggestion was that I look at installing a battery charger that would gently feed the batteries when on shore power so the engine didn't need to be run. He did not have time to suggest a particular brand or type and at the risk of making a nuisance of myself I wondered if that sounds like a good idea and bearing in mind that I intend to add solar panels at a later date, what would be the best solution to suit that particular scenario?

The picture is of my battery bank and looking at the size of those traction batteries I'm very glad that they are ok.

battery bank2.JPG

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I like these automatic Durite chargers as the can be left on all the time and are not expensive, Compact too with their own fan which runs at different speeds to match the output.

 

https://www.durite.co.uk/s/c/battery-chargers-and-maintenance/battery-chargers-and-maintainers/automatic-automotive-battery-charger-for-all-lead-acid-batteries

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The batteries were 'low but fine'? 

If you leave them in that state then they won't be fine. I doubt you would have run the engine long enough to get the full charge in. Buy a battery charger and install it asap ( I assume you have shore power?). When you get back to the boat, measure the voltage on the domestic bank before you start charging them again, preferably with no load on them and let us know the voltage.

Read the battery primer thread to understand how to look after batteries.

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Will do. Please bear in mind that after a brain injury I have no short-term memory for numbers or names or faces but so far as I know, at the start of play today they measured 11.8 volts. The tester showed that they held up under load which is why I said 'fine' The engine ran for about an hour (The alternator was outputting 14 plus volts) and they were up to 12.4 after only 5 minutes or so. I can't get back tomorrow but may do on Wednesday. I have no actual shorepower but do have a suitcase generator. I have a battery charger with 2 and 4 amp settings and so could set that up on the gennie, would that help? I'll put a cold towel over my head and read the battery charging primer again. Thanks.

 

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4 minutes ago, MartinW said:

Will do. Please bear in mind that after a brain injury I have no short-term memory for numbers or names or faces but so far as I know, at the start of play today they measured 11.8 volts. The tester showed that they held up under load which is why I said 'fine' The engine ran for about an hour (The alternator was outputting 14 plus volts) and they were up to 12.4 after only 5 minutes or so. I can't get back tomorrow but may do on Wednesday. I have no actual shorepower but do have a suitcase generator. I have a battery charger with 2 and 4 amp settings and so could set that up on the gennie, would that help? I'll put a cold towel over my head and read the battery charging primer again. Thanks.

 

From that level you are talking more like 6 hours than one engine running 

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9 hours ago, MartinW said:

Will do. Please bear in mind that after a brain injury I have no short-term memory for numbers or names or faces but so far as I know, at the start of play today they measured 11.8 volts. The tester showed that they held up under load which is why I said 'fine' The engine ran for about an hour (The alternator was outputting 14 plus volts) and they were up to 12.4 after only 5 minutes or so. I can't get back tomorrow but may do on Wednesday. I have no actual shorepower but do have a suitcase generator. I have a battery charger with 2 and 4 amp settings and so could set that up on the gennie, would that help? I'll put a cold towel over my head and read the battery charging primer again. Thanks.

 

 

11.8V is far too low for a decent battery life. When you manage to recharge them and if they sill have sufficient capacity try not to let them discharge that low again.

 

12.4 V after 5 minuets is hopefully surface charge and they would have been back to 11.8 within a hour or so oh stopping charging.

 

The other reason for a very fast charge is that the capacity has been drastically reduced by sulphation so you may now only have a working capacity of 50Ah or so, hopefully this is not the case.

 

Any tester you have, unless you are a battery agent or professional in the field, is almost certainly designed for cars so about 45Ah, not 440 plus Ah typical on many boats so of course they "held up under load". Try it with a tester designed for a bank of that size and you may well have got a different reading.

 

A charger running off a generator will help but to get a typical bank in tolerable order to fully charged will take many hours, possibly up to 20 hrs or more depending on charger output. If you use a low power charger (say 20 amps or less) I would run the engine at 1200rpm plus for three or four hours and then use the charger to finish the job.

 

 

Edited by Tony Brooks
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Great advice as always. Thank you. The Snap-on battery testers are usually automotive. I think I have a better grasp after reading the battery primer topic. If I had stopped there it would have been fine but I fell soft and read the replies......... too much snow today to think about going to the boat. I'll try and get there tomorrow. Thanks again.

 Martin.

 

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My two domestic batteries are 185 amp/hours each so I wonder what size of onboard charger would be best for battery life. I am expecting to find one that has the recommmended desulphating charging mode to try and keep the old cells going as long as possible.

 

I started the motor to try and put some charge back in but as soon as I revved it up there was a new sound like a dry bearing so I stopped. The drive belts are both very worn and came loose after tensioning so I have ordered them up (and a spare set - it's the Boy Scout in me) Once they are installed I shall track down the bearing noise to an alternator or the water-pump. Meanwhile the Mikuni diesel pipe was fixed and it tried really hard to start but there is no fan noise so I have been recommended to have it sent off for a full check-over. In the course of my investigations I found a leaking elbow on one of the the Hep20 'circs' so have called it a day and gone in search of parts.

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16 minutes ago, MartinW said:

My two domestic batteries are 185 amp/hours each so I wonder what size of onboard charger would be best for battery life. I am expecting to find one that has the recommmended desulphating charging mode to try and keep the old cells going as long as possible

It all depends on how you are going to use it.

If it will mainly be used when you return to a base where you have shore power, then a small unit say 20A-30A will be fine ...and cheap...ie the Victron 30A IP22. If however you will want to use it a lot using a genny, then the higher the power the better (up to the limit of the genny) as charging a 360Ahr bank from half full with 30A will mean running the genny for hours and annoying the neighbours.

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Great advice, thanks. I think I need to strike a balance and I know that there are no certainties in anyone's future, let alone mine. The only thing I know is that the process is one of one step forward and two back but I'll get there in the end.

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