Stop House Braunston

[Athy]

1 hour ago, BWM said:

 

 The re investment argument doesn't cut it, rental would provide a sustainable income which must be preferable to a one off payment from a knock down sale. 

Greatly preferable, yes - though it's unlikely that a handsome and historic house in a prime waterside location would sell for a "knock down" price.

[David Mack]

2 hours ago, BWM said:

The re investment argument doesn't cut it, rental would provide a sustainable income which must be preferable to a one off payment from a knock down sale. 

I thought CRT's practice (as with BW before them) is to reinvest the proceeds of selling non-operational canalside property in other property investments, which generate a better return, which goes to fund CRT's operations and maintenance of the network.

[Athy]

21 minutes ago, David Mack said:

I thought CRT's practice (as with BW before them) is to reinvest the proceeds of selling non-operational canalside property in other property investments, which generate a better return, which goes to fund CRT's operations and maintenance of the network.

That sounds laudable in theory, but does it work in practice? I seem to recall that, some years ago, they bought some pubs, on which they managed to lose money.

[Alan de Enfield]

16 minutes ago, Athy said:

That sounds laudable in theory, but does it work in practice? I seem to recall that, some years ago, they bought some pubs, on which they managed to lose money.

 

And a shopping centre which yielded similar results.

 

However their property portfolio is quite large, and, in addition, they are owners of quite a large housing stock and having 100's of new houses built each year.

(All details in the Financial reports available on line)

Income from property and investments = £53.4m giving 12% annualised return

Trust owned housing = 513 new residential house built 2018/19 and 491 in 2019/20 (They are a housing authority !!)

 

 

Edited February 3, 2021 by Alan de Enfield

[Sea Dog]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Trust owned housing = 513 new residential house built 2018/19 and 491 in 2019/20 (They are a housing authority !!)

So they're big in bricks and mortar as well as the linear, waterfilled housing projects they deal with? They're veritable social housing heroes!

 

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

So they're big in bricks and mortar as well as the linear, waterfilled housing projects they deal with? They're veritable social housing heroes!

 

I cannot find anywhere that states their total housing stock, just the new houses produced each year.

 

456 Completed 2015/16

250 Completed 2016/17

238 Completed 2017/18

513 Completed 2018/19

491 Completed 2019/20

[ditchcrawler]

13 hours ago, wandering snail said:

It doesn't say when they are proposing to follow this.   I think bearing in mind the importance of Braunston, this is one for the APPWG to take on.

who or what is APPWG

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, ditchcrawler said:

who or what is APPWG

 

 

All-Party Parliamentary Water Group - Connect (connectpa.co.uk)

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

I thought CRT's practice (as with BW before them) is to reinvest the proceeds of selling non-operational canalside property in other property investments, which generate a better return, which goes to fund CRT's operations and maintenance of the network.

Looking at the returns on their investments they must be getting it right more often than they do wrong, I would be happy with 12%

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

All-Party Parliamentary Water Group - Connect (connectpa.co.uk)

Thanks

[frangar]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

And a shopping centre which yielded similar results.

 

However their property portfolio is quite large, and, in addition, they are owners of quite a large housing stock and having 100's of new houses built each year.

(All details in the Financial reports available on line)

Income from property and investments = £53.4m giving 12% annualised return

Trust owned housing = 513 new residential house built 2018/19 and 491 in 2019/20 (They are a housing authority !!)

 

 

 

56 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I cannot find anywhere that states their total housing stock, just the new houses produced each year.

 

456 Completed 2015/16

250 Completed 2016/17

238 Completed 2017/18

513 Completed 2018/19

491 Completed 2019/20

Do you have a source for those figures?.....I feel an email to CRT coming on but I want to get my facts in order!.....I had a look on the CRT website but couldn't see it on the property page. 

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, frangar said:

 

Do you have a source for those figures?.....I feel an email to CRT coming on but I want to get my facts in order!.....I had a look on the CRT website but couldn't see it on the property page. 

 

 

They are quoted in each annual accounts and are an additional report to those require as part of the KPI's (Reporting to DEFRA)

 

Example :

 

 

 

[frangar]

9 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

They are quoted in each annual accounts and are an additional report to those require as part of the KPI's (Reporting to DEFRA)

 

Example :

 

 

 

Brilliant! Thanks!

[BWM]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

And a shopping centre which yielded similar results.

 

However their property portfolio is quite large, and, in addition, they are owners of quite a large housing stock and having 100's of new houses built each year.

(All details in the Financial reports available on line)

Income from property and investments = £53.4m giving 12% annualised return

Trust owned housing = 513 new residential house built 2018/19 and 491 in 2019/20 (They are a housing authority !!)

 

 

Very interesting, thanks for putting this up. 

 Whilst I can see the value of building assets to support the future needs, it does strike me as ironic that they are funding building on this scale whilst the one asset they are charged with looking after is quickly disintegrating. 

 It could appear that the assets are being stripped to create a housing agency at a glance!

[Alan de Enfield]

16 minutes ago, BWM said:

Very interesting, thanks for putting this up. 

 Whilst I can see the value of building assets to support the future needs, it does strike me as ironic that they are funding building on this scale whilst the one asset they are charged with looking after is quickly disintegrating. 

 It could appear that the assets are being stripped to create a housing agency at a glance!

 

 

I've read thru all the 'stuff' again to check there was no possibility of a misunderstanding but cannot see anything. The statement "Trust owned housing forecast figures" would not seem to be pretty clear (to me).

 

Be interesting to see Frangar's questions and any answers from C&RT

Edited February 3, 2021 by Alan de Enfield

[frangar]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

I've read thru all the 'stuff' again to check there was no possibility of a misunderstanding but cannot see anything. The statement "Trust owned housing forecast figures" would not seems to be pretty clear (to me).

 

Be interesting to see Frangar's questions and any answers from C&RT

I shall report back what I find out if anything. There is also the option to raise questions at HNBC AGM in March as the guest speaker is CRTs chief investment officer. 

[mark99]

Just steer them this way if looking for a buyer...... 

[frangar]

14 minutes ago, mark99 said:

Just steer them this way if looking for a buyer...... 

Theres no mooring though.....and you'd have annoying boaters wanting water and rubbish disposal....plus people wanting to eat lunch in your garden!

[John Brightley]

On 03/02/2021 at 16:49, BWM said:

Very interesting, thanks for putting this up. 

 Whilst I can see the value of building assets to support the future needs, it does strike me as ironic that they are funding building on this scale whilst the one asset they are charged with looking after is quickly disintegrating. 

 It could appear that the assets are being stripped to create a housing agency at a glance!

If you look at the notes in the annual report, these figures include sites previously disposed of by the Trust, so it is unlikely CRT is funding any of the building or indeed owns any of the properties.

[TheBiscuits]

14 minutes ago, John Brightley said:

it is unlikely CRT is funding any of the building or indeed owns any of the properties.

 

 

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/business-and-trade/property-development

 

Today we are involved in nearly £12 billion of waterside regeneration projects nationwide, reinvesting the profits from these schemes to help fund the waterways for future generations.

 

How we do it
We are a major land owner with a unique portfolio of land and property throughout the UK, worth over £500 million. Our team undertake land assembly and prepare our otherwise redundant property for regeneration by progressing it through the planning process.

 

 

Add a bit:

 

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/business-and-trade/property-development/joint-ventures

 

Joint ventures
As guardians of the waterways, we play an important role in the redevelopment and regeneration of waterside property and land. We've entered into a number of joint ventures with public and private partners.

 

H2O Urban LLP
H2O Urban LLP is a national joint venture company, of which we own 50%. The other 50% is owned by private developer bloc Ltd. H2O Urban is working on a series of regeneration and redevelopment projects across the UK to maximise opportunities with us. 

 

 

Waterside Places
Waterside Places is a national joint venture company, of which we own 50%. The other 50% is owned by Muse Developments.

Formed in 2002 the company specialises in regenerating waterside areas with intelligent design and a forward-thinking approach to urban renaissance. The company, which invests 50% of its profits back into Britain’s waterways, supports regeneration across the UK.

Edited February 5, 2021 by TheBiscuits

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, John Brightley said:

If you look at the notes in the annual report, these figures include sites previously disposed of by the Trust, so it is unlikely CRT is funding any of the building

 

 

It does say "INCLUDES" sites previously owned by the Trust, but it does not say ALL of the sites are previously owned by C&RT.

 

 

10 minutes ago, John Brightley said:

CRT is funding any of the building or indeed owns any of the properties.

 

 

But it does say "Trust owned housing forecasts"

 

 

Speculation may be unecessasry when Frangar gets his response from C&RT.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

It does say "INCLUDES" sites previously owned by the Trust, but it does not say ALL of the sites are previously owned by C&RT.

 

 

 

 

But it does say "Trust owned housing forecasts"

 

 

Speculation may be unecessasry when Frangar gets his response from C&RT.

Not sure any speculation is needed.

British Waterways was limited in the way it could operate commercially. It got round this by forming joint ventures with developers, often to develop BW land (both operational and non-operational) for housing, retail and other commercial use. It also had joint ventures that operated outside this field (e.g. the Pub Partnership).  Below is a non comprehensive list of JV's in which BW had an interest in its last year of operation (2011/12)

Isis Waterside Regeneration LP

City Road Basin Ltd

Edinburgh Quay Ltd

H2O Urban Ltd

H2O Urban LLP

Paddington Basin Business Barges Ltd

Timber Basin Ltd

West India Quay Management Company Ltd

Wood Wharf LP

Gloucester Quay LLP

The Waterside Pub Partnership. 
 

One of the selling points for transition from BW to CRT was that some of the above were contributing to the housing stock (or had the potential to do so). This resulted in a requirement to publish annual figures as part of CRT's publication data.

However, BW (in its last year) and subsequently CRT significantly reduced interest in joint ventures. It seems that government is happy that it provides combined figures for joint ventures that it currently has an interest in and those that CRT/BW previously had an interest in ...

 

[Alan de Enfield]

19 minutes ago, Allan(nb Albert) said:

However, BW (in its last year) and subsequently CRT significantly reduced interest in joint ventures. It seems that government is happy that it provides combined figures for joint ventures that it currently has an interest in and those that CRT/BW previously had an interest in ...

 

 

 

Then do C&RT 'own' all of these new residential units that are being reported in the accounts & being built each year ?

[Allan(nb Albert)]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Then do C&RT 'own' all of these new residential units that are being reported in the accounts & being built each year ?

No. 

[NB Alnwick]

It is interesting that there are quite a few companies registered at: First Floor North Station House, 500 Elder Gate, Milton Keynes, MK9 1BB

C&RT appear to have quite an empire . . .

[Allan(nb Albert)]

9 hours ago, NB Alnwick said:

It is interesting that there are quite a few companies registered at: First Floor North Station House, 500 Elder Gate, Milton Keynes, MK9 1BB

C&RT appear to have quite an empire . . .

As did BW ...

 

... and the problem has always been that CRT (and BW before it) put enormous effort into managing and growing that empire at the expense of discharging duties as a navigation authority.