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Shoreline setup advice


Boat_Around_Si

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Good afternoon,

 

I am soon to be connecting to shoreline for the first time after being a CC for 6 years. I wanted to run a few things past anyway who have previously done it, before purchasing.

 

I have a shoreline connection and an inverter, internally switched with two 3-pin shoreline plugs going into an RCD (see photos). Then going off to the plugs or an immersion heater (which I havent used being a CC'er). I have 1 starter battery and 4 x leisure batteries Numax CXV31MF 110ah (another starter on a bow thruster too).

 

My 12v and 240v system are separate, I have a good inverter so I'm looking to charge the 12v/batteries from the shoreline for my 12v needs (fridge, lights, water pump, eberspacher etc)

 

This is what I'm thinking of getting;

 

A Victron IP22 Blue Smart Charger 30a going straight onto the leisure batteries below via plug in the engine room

https://www.victronenergy.com/chargers/blue-smart-ip22-charger

 

A plug in galvanic Isolator can go outside or probably room for it inside too

https://galvanic-isolator.co.uk/product/galvanic-isolator-500a-surge-with-extra-protection-status-alert-and-ac-bypass-capacitor/

 

Does it sound about right? Ive heard some good things about the IP22 from these forums

Many thanks!
p.s. the charger is not in the basic wiring diagram

 

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WhatsApp Image 2021-01-20 at 18.17.37.jpeg

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Apart from the RCD and the fuse in the immersion switch I can see no  on board cable overload protection.  You are relying entirely on the shore fuse/breaker.  Somewhere after the RCD and before the plugs and immersion there must be a consumer unit with fuses/breakers for each individual circuit, rated so that the cable is protected in the event of a short circuit  L-N. Apart from preventing a fire risk this also has the benefit that in the event of a fault you do not lose all electrical services.

 

It also appears in your set up that the inverter  could be used to power the immersion heater. Either deliberately or inadvertently.  This is not dangerous but will wreck your battery swiftly.

 

N

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54 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

?

What you've drawn looks good. How do you have the mains earth wire grounded to the boat at the moment?

 

Yes I was about to ask the same question. Without a hull-earth bond there's no point in having a galvanic isolator because your mains earth path is already (and dangerously) isolated from the hull.

Edited by blackrose
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Thanks all for your feedback and questions.

 

I asked an electrician to test whether it was grounded a few years ago, I had some vibrations from by Macbook, thought it was the inverter but turns out just dodgy apple products.. But he confirmed it was but I don't remember him showing me where it was.

It was professionally fitted out originally so it must have been well grounded - thats not enough for my piece of mind though!

I'd like to see/inspect it but I have yet to find where it is grounded... hopefully its not behind panelling as the plugs go all the way down the boat.

 

What are the usual places a boat is grounded? It was build by Stoke on Trent boat builders/Longport Wharf 30 years ago

 

There must be a way I can check it is grounded with a multimeter too..

 

BEngo - yes it is setup to run the immersion heater off whatever is plugged in, strange I know, but I've always just used the Eberspacher not the immersion for that reason so not to kill the batteries

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It's usually in the engine space often on the same stud as the engine's 12v negative, although there's at least one good reason for it to be on a separate stud.

 

The best thing to do is follow the mains cable as it comes into the boat and see if the earth is split off somewhere and then follow that.

Edited by blackrose
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1 hour ago, Boat_Around_Si said:

Thanks all for your feedback and questions.

 

I asked an electrician to test whether it was grounded a few years ago, I had some vibrations from by Macbook, thought it was the inverter but turns out just dodgy apple products.. But he confirmed it was but I don't remember him showing me where it was.

It was professionally fitted out originally so it must have been well grounded - thats not enough for my piece of mind though!

I'd like to see/inspect it but I have yet to find where it is grounded... hopefully its not behind panelling as the plugs go all the way down the boat.

 

What are the usual places a boat is grounded? It was build by Stoke on Trent boat builders/Longport Wharf 30 years ago

 

There must be a way I can check it is grounded with a multimeter too..

 

BEngo - yes it is setup to run the immersion heater off whatever is plugged in, strange I know, but I've always just used the Eberspacher not the immersion for that reason so not to kill the batteries

Follow the shore power lead where it comes into the boat, it should be grounded quite close to a stud in the steel of the boat hull. Your battery negatives should be connected close by but on a separate stud.

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2 hours ago, Boat_Around_Si said:

must be a way I can check it is grounded with a multimeter

Yes there is. You really need a proper insulation and resistance tester but a multimeter will prove whether there is an earth connection to the hull or not.

 

Disconnect the  shore line/invertercable from the inlet socket.

Set the multimeter to the lowest resistance range.

Measure between the earth pin in the fixed shoreline/inverter input socket and the engine beds or other bare steel part of the hull.  

The meter should read zero resistance.  It may read a few milliohms.  It should not read open circuit.

 

N

 

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2 hours ago, Boat_Around_Si said:

What are the usual places a boat is grounded? It was build by Stoke on Trent boat builders/Longport Wharf 30 years ago

My boat was also built by Stoke-on-Trent Boat Builders just over 30 years ago (number 177). At that time their electrics were rather erratic - nobody there really had a proper understanding of them - and were of course undocumented. On mine, the mains earth was connected to the 12v negative supply, within the 12v distribution box; the box had a double-pole switch, so the 12v was switched in both the positive and negative legs. However the negative half of the switch was accidentally rendered ineffective because the bilge pump negative lead was connected to both sides of it (once for the manual on/off switch and once for the float switch, but only by thin cable of course). The mains earth was actually connected to the "switched" (but not) side of the switch - which was itself accidentally connected via the wiring to the hull at numerous places including the spotlamp, each navigation light, the lounge radio aerial, and the bedroom radio aerial. Also of course, both the domestic and starter negatives were connected together at their shared battery isolator switch, so the domestic system was also earthed to the hull via the engine and its hull connection; however there was no deliberate connection to hull, the engine effectively earthed itself to hull via the exhaust system and also the gearbox/throttle cable outer connections (which once got very hot under fault conditions). There was in fact NO deliberate connection of anything to the hull, anywhere.

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5 minutes ago, Keeping Up said:

My boat was also built by Stoke-on-Trent Boat Builders just over 30 years ago (number 177). At that time their electrics were rather erratic - nobody there really had a proper understanding of them - and were of course undocumented. On mine, the mains earth was connected to the 12v negative supply, within the 12v distribution box; the box had a double-pole switch, so the 12v was switched in both the positive and negative legs. However the negative half of the switch was accidentally rendered ineffective because the bilge pump negative lead was connected to both sides of it (once for the manual on/off switch and once for the float switch, but only by thin cable of course). The mains earth was actually connected to the "switched" (but not) side of the switch - which was itself accidentally connected via the wiring to the hull at numerous places including the spotlamp, each navigation light, the lounge radio aerial, and the bedroom radio aerial. Also of course, both the domestic and starter negatives were connected together at their shared battery isolator switch, so the domestic system was also earthed to the hull via the engine and its hull connection; however there was no deliberate connection to hull, the engine effectively earthed itself to hull via the exhaust system and also the gearbox/throttle cable outer connections (which once got very hot under fault conditions). There was in fact NO deliberate connection of anything to the hull, anywhere.

 

 

And then you wonder why one side eroded away to almost nothing !!!

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12 minutes ago, Keeping Up said:

My boat was also built by Stoke-on-Trent Boat Builders just over 30 years ago (number 177). At that time their electrics were rather erratic - nobody there really had a proper understanding of them - and were of course undocumented. On mine, the mains earth was connected to the 12v negative supply, within the 12v distribution box; the box had a double-pole switch, so the 12v was switched in both the positive and negative legs. However the negative half of the switch was accidentally rendered ineffective because the bilge pump negative lead was connected to both sides of it (once for the manual on/off switch and once for the float switch, but only by thin cable of course). The mains earth was actually connected to the "switched" (but not) side of the switch - which was itself accidentally connected via the wiring to the hull at numerous places including the spotlamp, each navigation light, the lounge radio aerial, and the bedroom radio aerial. Also of course, both the domestic and starter negatives were connected together at their shared battery isolator switch, so the domestic system was also earthed to the hull via the engine and its hull connection; however there was no deliberate connection to hull, the engine effectively earthed itself to hull via the exhaust system and also the gearbox/throttle cable outer connections (which once got very hot under fault conditions). There was in fact NO deliberate connection of anything to the hull, anywhere.

A recipe for serious hull steel loss. There should only be one earth, ground, point on the mains wiring to the hull.

Using the hull as a conductor is terrible.

Radio aerials are a real problem unless the are isolated by capacitors as the braid of the lead is connected to the hull at the aerial and the radio connects it to the ground on the radio.

We had a boat on the  marina that was being fitted out, with a negative battery connection fault. When the guy tried to start it the aerial lead set on fire and glowed red hot doing his carpet and cupboard no good at all. Most of the starter current was going through the lead as there was no definite connection to the engine and hull.

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52 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

And then you wonder why one side eroded away to almost nothing !!!

Actually the boat was fine for 23 years - mainly because I put right ALL these issues within the first few months of its life - but when I had the strange corrosion problems at 24 years it affected both sides and naturally I checked VERY carefully that there were no spurious earth paths.

  • Happy 1
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Not sure with those plugs. The important thing is to prevent any pins from being live by idiot connection, things like if the shore line is plugged in are there live pins in the dangling one? If the inverter is on does its plug have live pins inside? Etc. I know they have a cover but idiots can lift it up and poke fingers inside. 

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Hi thanks for your replies everyone.

 

I spent and afternoon rooting around following cables, couldn't find any grounding on the 240v so I've decided to get an electrician in.

Definitely better to be safe than sorry!  Its not something I feel comfortable with messing around on my own.

Thanks for point it all out and getting me to check it ?

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5 minutes ago, Boat_Around_Si said:

Hi thanks for your replies everyone.

 

I spent and afternoon rooting around following cables, couldn't find any grounding on the 240v so I've decided to get an electrician in.

Definitely better to be safe than sorry!  Its not something I feel comfortable with messing around on my own.

Thanks for point it all out and getting me to check it ?

Get him to fit a Galvanic Isolator inside at the same time, better than the ones in the lead outside. Then you know it is all OK.

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39 minutes ago, Boat_Around_Si said:

Hi thanks for your replies everyone.

 

I spent and afternoon rooting around following cables, couldn't find any grounding on the 240v so I've decided to get an electrician in.

Definitely better to be safe than sorry!  Its not something I feel comfortable with messing around on my own.

Thanks for point it all out and getting me to check it ?

 

Just make sure it's a marine electrician and not some run of the mill tradesman.

  • Greenie 1
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Last piece of advice please, I'm moving onto a CRT mooring and they've stated that;

 

"The electricity provided at this site is 16 amps. Please ensure that you obtain a 32amp plug and boat
cable for the electricity supply to hook up to."

 

Is this because a 16amp cable would overheat?


I will ask my electrician this too, but if I have to order a 32a cable ahead of time its good to know.

I already own a 16a rated cable. The circuit breaker is 30a.

Thanks!

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37 minutes ago, Boat_Around_Si said:

Last piece of advice please, I'm moving onto a CRT mooring and they've stated that;

 

"The electricity provided at this site is 16 amps. Please ensure that you obtain a 32amp plug and boat
cable for the electricity supply to hook up to."

 

Is this because a 16amp cable would overheat?


I will ask my electrician this too, but if I have to order a 32a cable ahead of time its good to know.

I already own a 16a rated cable. The circuit breaker is 30a.

Thanks!

 

 

A 32 amp plug (as C&RT inform you to purchase) is a very different plug to a 16 amp plug and will not fit into a standard 16 amp 'blue' socket'

 

It may be worth speaking with C&RT to find out :

 

1) have they made a mistake ?

2) despite only having a 16a supply have they used 32a sockets on the bollard ?

 

Some marinas do have a 32a supply (using 32a plugs and sockets) and I have made up a 32a plug to 16a socket adapter (so I can use my existing cables) so even if you don't really need it for your mooring it may be handy elsewhere.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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2 minutes ago, billso said:

Using a 32a to 16a unfused lead is not a good idea and against all regs.if anything did happen to your boat it would not be insured.just seemed worth ponting out as I have seen it end badly before.

 

The bollard may be capable of supplying 32a, but the boat will not take more than 16a otherwise it would not function on normal 16a bollards.

It is no different to using an 'adapter' in any plug.

 

Are you suggesting that powering my drill, using a 'normal' 8 amp domestic extension lead plugged into a 13 amp domestic socket is against 'all regs ?

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Most boats are setup with enough circuits to draw more than 16a if aloud to do so.it sounds like your boat may only have just one 16a rated circuit on it feeding all 240 v appliances but this is far from standard.even if that is the case the 16a plug and cable feeding it are still unprotected.

The 10a rated cable in that extension is protected by a 10a fuse so is safe.Connecting a 16a rated cable and connector to a 32a fuse is not safe.

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