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Prospective buyers paid for BSS then backed out of sale


SallyG

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Hi, Does anyone know the situation with BSS certificates when a buyer has backed out of the sale. Our boat is up for sale and an interested person has paid for a survey and a BSS examination then had second thoughts and backed out of the sale.  We proceeded to get the advisories carried out and now need the new certificate. Will the surveyor supply us with the certificate as the prospective buyer is no longer interested?  Thanks

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Just invite the examiner back to inspect the work done and pay any monies due for the second visit. The certificate is issued to the vessel and usually held by the owner, so shouldn't be a problem. The survey on the other hand is the property of the prospective purchaser.

 

Edited by Eeyore
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Thank you, that's reassuring.  We have a copy of the survey so is there a way this can become ours.  I've heard of the name of a survey being transferred, does this procedure involve permission from the original purchasers. They have just 'walked away' from it all and it seems a waste of money to have to pay for another survey when this one is so recent.  We have acted on all the advisories, as we promised the original buyers we would, and the boat is good to go now. It's a more attractive proposition with a current survey. Thanks for your advice.

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39 minutes ago, SallyG said:

Thank you, that's reassuring.  We have a copy of the survey so is there a way this can become ours.  I've heard of the name of a survey being transferred, does this procedure involve permission from the original purchasers. They have just 'walked away' from it all and it seems a waste of money to have to pay for another survey when this one is so recent.  We have acted on all the advisories, as we promised the original buyers we would, and the boat is good to go now. It's a more attractive proposition with a current survey. Thanks for your advice.

 

 

I think you will find that very very few buyers will accept a 'sellers' survey, firstly, there is no guarantee that the survey wasn't done 'by a mate' who only reported the 'good stuff' and there could be a huge problem not reported on.

Secondly, if any problems are subsequently found then there will be a clause in the survey saying (words to the effect) 'this survey is only to be used by the person who commissioned it' and has no legal standing with any other person.

 

For these reasons a buyer will generally want to have their own survey done.

 

There is always the possibility that the surveyor will 'sell' the survey to your prospective buyers at a reduced cost as he doesn't have to again visit the boat.

This may not be as simple as it seems as the survey is normally only valid whilst the surveyor is present at the boat, the reason being after he has left, someone could rip out the gas system, blow up the electrics or drill holes in the hull, even the repairs of your 'advisories' could have resulted in damage (eg the repairer could have trodden on a fuel pipe and crushed it) - non of which the surveyor would have any control over.

He could possibly say "It was OK at 3:30pm on 21/1/21 but I have no control over anything that may have happened since "Caveat Emptor".

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Thanks for your advice which is much appreciated. It is actually a buyers survey not a sellers survey, commissioned and paid for by the buyers who then walked away. It's very detailed. I do get the point, though, about it only being valid whilst the surveyor is present. However, we have someone else very interested in the boat and willing to accept the survey and word of the very reputable boat yard that has worked on the advisories for the last 3 weeks. I just wondered if, to have the name on the survey transferred, we would have to have the permission of the original buyers who commissioned the survey.  Thanks.

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9 minutes ago, SallyG said:

Thanks for your advice which is much appreciated. It is actually a buyers survey not a sellers survey,

 

I do realise that, but you were looking to 'buy it' from the surveyor and then using to show potential buyers, it then becomes a survey owned by the seller (a sellers survey)

 

The surveyor has ownership of the copyright, so can sell it (and rights to using it) without the permission of the people who commissioned it.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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22 minutes ago, SallyG said:

 However, we have someone else very interested in the boat and willing to accept the survey and word of the very reputable boat yard that has worked on the advisories for the last 3 weeks. I just wondered if, to have the name on the survey transferred, we would have to have the permission of the original buyers who commissioned the survey.  Thanks.

If the current prospective buyer is willing to buy the boat on the basis of the survey paid for the person who dropped out, what is the purpose of going through the contortions of trying to get the survey addressed in his name? It won't make it any more (or less) valid.

 

Tam

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Copyright in the survey belongs to the Suveyor. He provided a copy to his client, the former buyer, and you were provided with a copy so that you could address the deficiencies found.

But it is not yours to pass on to other prospective buyers. The most you can legally do is advise other prospective buyers that the survey exists, but you or the prospective buyer would need to obtain the surveyor's consent, for which he may make a charge, before the document can be handed over. And of course the surveyor may refuse.

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8 hours ago, SallyG said:

Hi, Does anyone know the situation with BSS certificates when a buyer has backed out of the sale. Our boat is up for sale and an interested person has paid for a survey and a BSS examination then had second thoughts and backed out of the sale.  We proceeded to get the advisories carried out and now need the new certificate. Will the surveyor supply us with the certificate as the prospective buyer is no longer interested?  Thanks

On the BSS, my understanding is that the BSS is registered against the boat so, if there were only advisories, the boat has a valid BSS. I don’t think an actual certificate is issued, although I do recall the inspector providing a copy of his visit record.

 

I understand that the register is accessible by CRT, and The Bridgewater Canal Company, (in my case). I don’t know how an individual boat owner gets a copy.

 

There used to be a contributor here who was either a BSS surveyor, or worked for the BSS organisation, although I haven’t seen him post for a while.

 

The easiest way yes probably to get the surveyor back to check the advisories, and issued you with an updated report/certificate, or whatever they are called these days.

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3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

The surveyor has ownership of the copyright, so can sell it (and rights to using it) without the permission of the people who commissioned it.

 

I'm very surprised to read that.  Surely if I commission anything, including a survey or any report, or indeed a work of art, then it becomes my property?  When I bought Cygnet, the previous prospective purchaser had paid for an independent survey, but then couldn't come up with the money for the boat.  I bought the survey for half price, and assumed that I was buying it from the person who commissioned it.  All this was done through the selling agent (Calcutt Boats), whom I trusted and who were very helpful in the whole process.

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15 minutes ago, Mac of Cygnet said:

 

I'm very surprised to read that.  Surely if I commission anything, including a survey or any report, or indeed a work of art, then it becomes my property?  When I bought Cygnet, the previous prospective purchaser had paid for an independent survey, but then couldn't come up with the money for the boat.  I bought the survey for half price, and assumed that I was buying it from the person who commissioned it.  All this was done through the selling agent (Calcutt Boats), whom I trusted and who were very helpful in the whole process.

 

I thought on similar lines to you until discussing copyright with a professional photographer friend of SMBO.

 

She would take pictures at big equestrian events, either 'just random ones, or ones requested and posed for'.

On developing the samples would be sent out with a 'copyright message' across the centre of the picture so they were unusable.

 

She retained all the copyright 'rights' and when she sold the 'unmarked' pictures she was still able to sell copies to magazines, etc. The 'buyer' was not allowed to reproduce the picture, they had purchased a single copy only.

 

 

Edit : the 1st thing that popped up on Google

 

Who owns the copyright in a photograph? (porterdodson.co.uk)

 

 In the UK, the owner of the copyright in a photograph is the author: the one who makes the permanent record. Therefore, if it had been Ellen who had pressed the button, she would own the copyright.

If Ellen had been an employee of Samsung and she had taken the image during the course of her employment, the copyright would vest in her employer, Samsung.

However, in this situation it was Bradley Cooper who actually pressed the button. So he owns the copyright in the photograph. It does not matter who actually owns the camera, or in this case, phone, that the photograph was taken on.

 

 

The one who presses the button (or writes the report) owns the copyright unless it has been assigned.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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43 minutes ago, Mac of Cygnet said:

 

I'm very surprised to read that.  Surely if I commission anything, including a survey or any report, or indeed a work of art, then it becomes my property? 

No. The work of art may, in a physical sense, be your property, but in general the intellectual property rights which it represents are not.

Under copyright law the ownership rests with whoever created the work i.e. the surveyor ( and similarly, painter, photographer, sculptor etc.). Under the terms on which you commissioned the survey, the surveyor may (or may not) have given you a licence to copy and/or distribute the document in certain circumstances, but will have almost certainly included a provision that restricts his liability to only the person who commissioned the survey.

In practice, in a digital age, it is difficult to prevent the onward copying of information (whatever the law says). Recognising this the photographer at my son's wedding gave them full distribution and copying rights to the wedding photos, so they could pass them around friends and family, post on social media etc. without limit, and charged a higher fee for taking the photos in the first place.

If you create copyright works in the course of your employment there is usually a clause in your contract of employment where you assign all copyright rights to your employer.  Otherwise they would remain yours in person, and the employer would not be able to use that material without your consent.

Edited by David Mack
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You only get resale rights to IP you pay for if the contract says you do.

 

It's not in the interests of professionals to have standard contracts saying you do unless most of their clients hire them because they expect to resell it or to have exclusive rights to it.

 

And it's really, really not in the interests of a surveyor or similar professional, because it's their reputation other people would be making money off, and their potential for professional liability issues if something in the survey is misunderstood, no longer applicable or just plain wrong. Their professional liability insurance probably wouldn't allow them to permit third parties to resell their surveys even in the unlikely event they wanted to. 

Edited by enigmatic
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I've bought houses on the basis of a previous interested party's survey, and sold them too. The crucial point is that the survey, if not commissioned by you, just becomes a useful and informative document. If it turns out to have missed something fundamental you, as the buyer, have no rights against either the surveyor or the bloke who showed you the survey, as you have no guarantee from the surveyor that what you see is what he wrote and hasn't been doctored by the seller.

So it comes down to whether your buyer trusts you that the survey you've given him is genuine. But I can't see why you shouldn't show it to him, as long as he understands that you didn't commission it and can't speak as to its accuracy. It's then up to the buyer as to whether he wants to commission his own.

I don't think copyright comes into it. A book is copyright, but I can buy it myself and then give it to someone else without being sued! A survey is the same  - anyone can read it, but what gets lost are the guarantees implicit in the original contract.

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9 hours ago, MartynG said:

I think you should talk to the buyer and at least offer to pay for the BSS.

 

 

The BSS has been paid for, and if the works are done to the surveyors satisfaction, will stand against the boat for 4 years who-ever owns it or buys it.

(Unless changes are made to electrical, gas, ventilation or fuel systems in the interim)

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I'm not sure what needs to be changed here. Your boat now has a valid BSS certificate (I'm surprised you didn't do this prior to selling anyway) and you have a buyer willing to buy the boat on the strength of the survey just done. The buyer doesn't have to have any survey if he doesn't want or need one (e.g. for insurance purposes in an older boat), and the seller certainly doesn't need one for a boat he no longer has.

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22 hours ago, BEngo said:

You can check the date of the last (or next due) BSS exam on line.  That should be the same as the date your prospective buyers had the boat surveyed/examined.

N

Where can you do this? I've often wondered if joe public has access to this info....

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