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New '5-minute charge' BEV batteries.


Alan de Enfield

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Maybe when road use taxing comes in they have bands with electric in the lowest band  the more polluting and older cars in the highest bands. That way Tim will pay a fair share for his ability to do 600 miles between filling up in his gross polluting well maintained old car?

I am just having fun but I will lay money that my scenario is the one that happens 

30 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

If peeps bought a decent EV then they would have no problem!:P

I fully agree. There is no need for SUVs. Just whack a load of tax on them - £1000 per year.......or maybe restrict them to 50mph.

Bob shortly like me your electric car will pay by the mile for road use, the government can't give us a free ride for ever 

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13 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Maybe when road use taxing comes in they have bands with electric in the lowest band  the more polluting and older cars in the highest bands. That way Tim will pay a fair share for his ability to do 600 miles between filling up in his gross polluting well maintained old car?

I am just having fun but I will lay money that my scenario is the one that happens 

Bob shortly like me your electric car will pay by the mile for road use, the government can't give us a free ride for ever 

You are right of course! The freebies we are getting now is just to entice us to change. There is an 'activation energy' to use a chemical analogy to get peeps to change, but having changed to EV, its so much nicer driving an EV.

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Just now, Dr Bob said:

You are right of course! The freebies we are getting now is just to entice us to change. There is an 'activation energy' to use a chemical analogy to get peeps to change, but having changed to EV, its so much nicer driving an EV.

 

 

A lot like 'diesel being cheaper than petrol' it is clean so change over NOW !!

 

A high percentage of drivers change and the price is ramped up and up until it is often 5p litre more than petrol.

 

Suckers !!!

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2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

A lot like 'diesel being cheaper than petrol' it is clean so change over NOW !!

 

A high percentage of drivers change and the price is ramped up and up until it is often 5p litre more than petrol.

 

Suckers !!!

Just wait until Teslas start operating as power banks. The model 3 Tesla has an inbuilt inverter so when we are hooked up to the network to charge, power can go both ways. When the network becomes overloaded between 5 and 7pm, Tesla can supply the grid with their 'excess' power and charge  the grid £3 per unit (rather than the normal 16p) ....and maybe give some of that income back to us? We can then recharge for that loss of capacity in the early hours of the morning when the cost of power reverts to its 16p a unit.

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48 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

A lot like 'diesel being cheaper than petrol' it is clean so change over NOW !!

 

A high percentage of drivers change and the price is ramped up and up until it is often 5p litre more than petrol.

 

Suckers !!!

Have you not noticed that the price of fuel is rising fast, I go past a fuel station daily and I think we are heading rapidly for a price similar to before covid

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2 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Have you not noticed that the price of fuel is rising fast, I go past a fuel station daily and I think we are heading rapidly for a price similar to before covid

 

I went to the GP yesterday to pick up my prescription, and I noticed that the price at the garage was exactly the same as that I paid last time I filled up (March 2020) at £119.9ppl

Just goes to show how much travelling we have done since then. (Went to the boat and back, once in the other car)

 

Our local garage tends to be around 5p more than 'other garages' but being as I would use about £5 worth to get to the next nearest garage, unless I'm going past it is not worth going to make a 'special' trip.

The pleasures of rural living.

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41 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Just wait until Teslas start operating as power banks. The model 3 Tesla has an inbuilt inverter so when we are hooked up to the network to charge, power can go both ways. When the network becomes overloaded between 5 and 7pm, Tesla can supply the grid with their 'excess' power and charge  the grid £3 per unit (rather than the normal 16p) ....and maybe give some of that income back to us? We can then recharge for that loss of capacity in the early hours of the morning when the cost of power reverts to its 16p a unit.

That's exactly the solution proposed for filling in short gaps in renewable generation or peaks in demand. It does need a lot of smart BEV (and smart meters) where extra charge/discharge cycles aren't a problem for lifetime and round-trip energy efficiency is high, but Tesla is pretty much there already. In compensation for this the buy/sell price difference reduces your car running costs.

 

If you think that on average something like 20m cars in the UK are parked at any one time, when a lot are BEV this is equivalent to an *enormous* battery bank. Take the point when half the cars are BEV with 60kWh batteries, and assume that people will allow half the battery capacity to be used as part of the "grid battery bank", this is 10M cars x 30kWh which is 300GWh -- which is the peak output of the entire UK grid (75GW) for four hours.

 

Another way of looking at it is that at $100/kWh this "virtual battery bank" is worth $30billion...

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7 minutes ago, IanD said:

That's exactly the solution proposed for filling in short gaps in renewable generation or peaks in demand. It does need a lot of smart BEV (and smart meters) where extra charge/discharge cycles aren't a problem for lifetime and round-trip energy efficiency is high, but Tesla is pretty much there already. In compensation for this the buy/sell price difference reduces your car running costs.

 

If you think that on average something like 20m cars in the UK are parked at any one time, when a lot are BEV this is equivalent to an *enormous* battery bank. Take the point when half the cars are BEV with 60kWh batteries, and assume that people will allow half the battery capacity to be used as part of the "grid battery bank", this is 10M cars x 30kWh which is 300GWh -- which is the peak output of the entire UK grid (75GW) for four hours.

 

Another way of looking at it is that at $100/kWh this "virtual battery bank" is worth $30billion...

Ah you see people dont see the other side of the coin and just look at BEVs being a drain on the grid, the positives are very real as well

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16 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

I suggest you google in reality how many MILLIONS and MILLIONS and MILLIONS of ice cars are on our roads as against how many electric there are, even if you add pretend electric with internal combustion engines in them. As for genuinely electric its a miniscule amount, growing yes but still miniscule. :P

Watch it smelly or I'll send the EV boys round... 

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25 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Ah you see people dont see the other side of the coin and just look at BEVs being a drain on the grid, the positives are very real as well

 

I am looking forward to the day when I can charge my car at a free charging point, drive to the boat, and then plug the boat into the car so that I don't have to run the generator to watch TV.

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Just now, NB Alnwick said:

 

I am looking forward to the day when I can charge my car at a free charging point, drive to the boat, and then plug the boat into the car so that I don't have to run the generator to watch TV.

But if you have a ‘5 minute’ battery on your boat and a massive alternator you will be able to get enough charge into the batteries within 30mins of boat engine running.  You wouldn’t want it much quicker than that as for long engine life it is best to stop the engine when hot.

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30 minutes ago, NB Alnwick said:

 

I am looking forward to the day when I can charge my car at a free charging point, drive to the boat, and then plug the boat into the car so that I don't have to run the generator to watch TV.

Yes, no prob, a 30kwh EV battery has loads of power to run a boat, on Innisfree we used 1.5 - 2 kwh daily. 

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17 minutes ago, nb Innisfree said:

Yes, no prob, a 30kwh EV battery has loads of power to run a boat, on Innisfree we used 1.5 - 2 kwh daily. 

Our boat Li batteries are circa 5kWh. We dont really need anymore. Our car batteries are 75kWh. The car does 0-60 in 4 seconds. The boat doesnt.

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15 hours ago, NB Alnwick said:

And, if you are doing 70 mph on a motorway, the only people who overtake you will either be emergency vehicles or criminals . . .

or those with a more accurate speedometer ...

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2 hours ago, Chewbacka said:

But if you have a ‘5 minute’ battery on your boat and a massive alternator you will be able to get enough charge into the batteries within 30mins of boat engine running.  You wouldn’t want it much quicker than that as for long engine life it is best to stop the engine when hot.

Or your alternator will have overheated and fried itself 

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2 hours ago, Chewbacka said:

But if you have a ‘5 minute’ battery on your boat and a massive alternator you will be able to get enough charge into the batteries within 30mins of boat engine running.  You wouldn’t want it much quicker than that as for long engine life it is best to stop the engine when hot.

That's pretty much the Integrel solution, a 10kW alternator -- like a Rolls-Royce though, if you need to ask how much it costs (together with the required batteries to charge this fast) you probably can't afford it... ?

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On 20/01/2021 at 12:34, NB Alnwick said:

 

I am looking forward to the day when I can charge my car at a free charging point, drive to the boat, and then plug the boat into the car so that I don't have to run the generator to watch TV.

 

But then how would you drive back home if the csr now had a flat battery? ???

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On 20/01/2021 at 10:56, Dr Bob said:

You are right of course! The freebies we are getting now is just to entice us to change. There is an 'activation energy' to use a chemical analogy to get peeps to change, but having changed to EV, its so much nicer driving an EV.

 

In what way is it nicer? I'm not challenging the statement. Just curious.

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31 minutes ago, Cheshire cat said:

 

In what way is it nicer? I'm not challenging the statement. Just curious.

From my usage I find the quick acceleration and silence fantastic, also one pedal driving is easy peasy hardly have to bother with brakes just so without drama

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4 hours ago, cuthound said:

 

But then how would you drive back home if the csr now had a flat battery? ???

 

That's what we use the horse for now that CRT say that "canal tow paths are unsuitable for horses" . . .

:)

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2 hours ago, Cheshire cat said:

 

In what way is it nicer? I'm not challenging the statement. Just curious.

As Peter says, the acceleration and one pedal driving.

The acceleration is instant so very easy to pull out into gaps in traffic. Having such a responsive car is so much better. The one pedal driving.......only need to use the break pedal when near freezing ........... is great when you get used to it. When it's near freezing and you've just got in the car, the batteries have to warm up before the batteries can be charged by the regenerative breaking so to slow down you use the break instead. 

The autopilot is not too shabby if you want to stay in one lane on the motorway.

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13 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

As Peter says, the acceleration and one pedal driving.

The acceleration is instant so very easy to pull out into gaps in traffic. Having such a responsive car is so much better. The one pedal driving.......only need to use the break pedal when near freezing ........... is great when you get used to it. When it's near freezing and you've just got in the car, the batteries have to warm up before the batteries can be charged by the regenerative breaking so to slow down you use the break instead. 

The autopilot is not too shabby if you want to stay in one lane on the motorway.

 

So when you use this "break pedal" does the car automatically stop and make you a cup of coffee, or does one of the cars many functions cease to operate? ???

 

Also how do you apply the cars brakes?

 

Yours affectionately, Cuthound the pedant ??

Edited by cuthound
To add the last paragraph
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https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/01/whats-the-technology-behind-a-five-minute-charge-battery/

 

"The bet that StoreDot is making is that it's not the absolute charge range of an electric vehicle that matters; it's how quickly you can extend that range. So, while it's leveraging research on technologies that allow greater capacity in lithium ion batteries, it's turning around and sacrificing some of that capacity in order to make charging faster. Put differently, the bet is that people would rather add 300km to the range of their car in five minutes than have a car with a 600km range that takes an hour to fully charge."

 

"But a key fact mentioned by The Guardian article is that, while the sample batteries are meant to match the performance of the final, mass produced version, they're not actually chemically identical. To ease the first manufacturing run, StoreDot used the element one row below silicon. Germanium is much easier to work with than silicon and interacts with lithium in the same way, but it suffers from the otherwise crippling feature of being really expensive. There's no way at this point to determine how much of a challenge it will be to substitute in the far cheaper silicon."

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