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Ribble Link


Polly Graff

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Hi - I'm a new member and new to boating. I am considering purchasing a 45' narrowboat with a two year old beta 30 engine and a PRM 90 gear box. I understand that the '30' here refers to the horsepower of the engine. My question is, is this engine going to be powerful enough to cope with the Ribble Link? I'm not planning to do it until I've had more experience but, nevertheless, I will want to at some point so want to make sure I get a boat that is up to the job. Another possibility (which I'm less enthusiastic about due to other condition issues), is another 45 footer with a 1.5 BMC engine which is described as 32 hp and as 'refurbished' in 2018. So - to Ribble or not to Ribble - what do people think?

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30 hp is tons of power for a 45 footer. As you say gain some experience first and ensure the engine is reliable and doesn't overheat if used at full belt for an hour or so then you know it will be fine. Change fuel filters and any charging or water pump belts. 

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8 minutes ago, Polly Graff said:

Hi - I'm a new member and new to boating. I am considering purchasing a 45' narrowboat with a two year old beta 30 engine and a PRM 90 gear box. I understand that the '30' here refers to the horsepower of the engine. My question is, is this engine going to be powerful enough to cope with the Ribble Link? I'm not planning to do it until I've had more experience but, nevertheless, I will want to at some point so want to make sure I get a boat that is up to the job. Another possibility (which I'm less enthusiastic about due to other condition issues), is another 45 footer with a 1.5 BMC engine which is described as 32 hp and as 'refurbished' in 2018. So - to Ribble or not to Ribble - what do people think?

Simple answer is probably yes.  Many similar narrowboats do it every year.

 

Refurbished or not, a 1.5 BMC will have probably lost more horses over the years than the Beta.

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Just now, mrsmelly said:

30 hp is tons of power for a 45 footer. As you say gain some experience first and ensure the engine is reliable and doesn't overheat if used at full belt for an hour or so then you know it will be fine. Change fuel filters and any charging or water pump belts. 

 

Full belt for 3 hours is more like it, punching the tide all the way as you hit Astland Perch at slack water.  It's uphill in both directions!

 

The advice from CRT is that if your boat can maintain 5knots (6mph) in deep still water you should be fine but many that can't go that fast have done the crossing.  

 

Last time I helped someone across, one of the other boats didn't think they could manage it safely so paid for the tugboat out of Tarleton to meet them halfway - prearranged cost under £100 they said.  They were the last boat of 8 out of Savick Brook and the third boat in at Tarleton ...

 

 

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Just now, TheBiscuits said:

 

Full belt for 3 hours is more like it, punching the tide all the way as you hit Astland Perch at slack water.  It's uphill in both directions!

 

The advice from CRT is that if your boat can maintain 5knots (6mph) in deep still water you should be fine but many that can't go that fast have done the crossing.  

 

Last time I helped someone across, one of the other boats didn't think they could manage it safely so paid for the tugboat out of Tarleton to meet them halfway - prearranged cost under £100 they said.  They were the last boat of 8 out of Savick Brook and the third boat in at Tarleton ...

 

 

What I meant was if it doesn't overheat in an hour then it's not going to over heat. Just trying it for ten minutes isn't long enough. 

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Oh!! Thats helpful of you both - and a bit unexpected. Thanks  I've read posts from ppl with 57' boats and 38 hp engines (which, unless I'm being simplistic works out at .66 hp per foot). $5' with 30 hp also works out at .66 hp per foot. Thats why I thoughtn it might be underpowered. Encouraged by what you have had to say - thanks.

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Simple answer is yes.

 

But as MrSmelly says fail to prepare, prepare to fail.

 

Make sure it's in tip top condition and has freshly fitted filters. The 'choppiness' can whip up crud from your tank that would other wise just sit there.

 

It does get quite choppy depending on conditions and the tidal flow can be very strong.

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7 minutes ago, Polly Graff said:

Oh!! Thats helpful of you both - and a bit unexpected. Thanks  I've read posts from ppl with 57' boats and 38 hp engines (which, unless I'm being simplistic works out at .66 hp per foot). $5' with 30 hp also works out at .66 hp per foot. Thats why I thoughtn it might be underpowered. Encouraged by what you have had to say - thanks.

As others have said, the issue is far more likely to be inadequate engine cooling than inadequate engine power.

 

What are the cooling set ups of these boats?  If skin tanks, then how big are those tanks?  Is there any other way of dumping excess engine heat if needed?  For example, if I needed to I could run the central heating pump to use the radiators as extra heat sinks.  I've never had to do that though.

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9 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

Simple answer is yes.

 

But as MrSmelly says fail to prepare, prepare to fail.

 

Make sure it's in tip top condition and has freshly fitted filters. The 'choppiness' can whip up crud from your tank that would other wise just sit there.

 

It does get quite choppy depending on conditions and the tidal flow can be very strong.

Thanks for the advice - I'm one of the world's great preparers - never been known to take a chance on anything - so full service will take place before I go anywhere - especially there!!!

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I don't know about the Beta 30 but we have a Beta 43 and when I spoke to Beta after conducting my own overheating tests they said that the maximum time it may be run at full power is only 40 minutes. It is fine to run at 90% power forever, and even at maximum revs if the prop  size means that it is only actually at or below the 90% power level, but at full power you will start to have problems around that 40 minutes mark. It doesn't matter how good your water cooling system is (that is what I was testing on mine, after an engine swap) but you just might get another 5 or 10 minutes they said if you have additional engine oil cooling installed (not to be confused with the gearbox oil cooling and unlikely on a typical narrowboat system) but definitely for long term running you must run at slightly reduced power. On mine the main indication was that although the water temperature did not rise at all because my water cooling system is more than adequate, the oil pressure suddenly started to drop after 45 minutes.

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2 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

As others have said, the issue is far more likely to be inadequate engine cooling than inadequate engine power.

 

What are the cooling set ups of these boats?  If skin tanks, then how big are those tanks?  Is there any other way of dumping excess engine heat if needed?  For example, if I needed to I could run the central heating pump to use the radiators as extra heat sinks.  I've never had to do that though.

At the moment I'm working on limited information - all I have are the brokers boat details. I know neither has central heating. Because of the current situation, I can't view them - marinas tend to be shut and, in any case, I don't go out unless its essential - like we've been told. Hopefully I'll be able to see them at some point and get more info.

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We did it in 2019, 50ft boat with a Beta 35 engine.  
 

On the up you are against the tide must of the way, with slack water around Asland Lamp, but we did not need to push any harder than fast river cruising, 2000 rpm, where the Beta 35 is developing about 25bhp.  I was the first boat out of Tarleton, and first onto the holding pontoon after the sea lock on Savick Brook, so you don’t need to overly push it to get there in the window, unless you pick a less favourable tide, I picked a mid one for both trips.

 

The only time I needed to gun the engine was on the return trip coming out of Savick Brook and making the 90 deg turn into the tide on the Ribble, at the point you go the tide is flowing in very fast.  One you get stabilised punching the tide you can back off quite a bit and just accept the you are initially making probable less the 1mph over the ground.  As you get nearer to Asland Lamp you will speed up a bit, and once on the Douglas you will be with the tide for all or most of the way.  We had to hover outside the lock at Tarleton while to tide turned and dropped a bit so both ends of the lock could be opened.  So even though we made slow progress on the Ribble, we were basically still early getting to Tarleton.

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33 minutes ago, john6767 said:

We did it in 2019, 50ft boat with a Beta 35 engine.  
 

On the up you are against the tide must of the way, with slack water around Asland Lamp, but we did not need to push any harder than fast river cruising, 2000 rpm, where the Beta 35 is developing about 25bhp.  I was the first boat out of Tarleton, and first onto the holding pontoon after the sea lock on Savick Brook, so you don’t need to overly push it to get there in the window, unless you pick a less favourable tide, I picked a mid one for both trips.

 

The only time I needed to gun the engine was on the return trip coming out of Savick Brook and making the 90 deg turn into the tide on the Ribble, at the point you go the tide is flowing in very fast.  One you get stabilised punching the tide you can back off quite a bit and just accept the you are initially making probable less the 1mph over the ground.  As you get nearer to Asland Lamp you will speed up a bit, and once on the Douglas you will be with the tide for all or most of the way.  We had to hover outside the lock at Tarleton while to tide turned and dropped a bit so both ends of the lock could be opened.  So even though we made slow progress on the Ribble, we were basically still early getting to Tarleton.

There are a couple of videos on you tube which show exactly what you describe about coming out of the brook and turning very nicely.

 

Ignore the over dramatic title and the little bit of drama but 8 mins. onwards shows it nicely.

 

 

Edited by The Happy Nomad
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1 hour ago, Polly Graff said:

At the moment I'm working on limited information - all I have are the brokers boat details. I know neither has central heating. Because of the current situation, I can't view them - marinas tend to be shut and, in any case, I don't go out unless its essential - like we've been told. Hopefully I'll be able to see them at some point and get more info.

When you get to view the boats have a look and if possible measure the dimensions of the skin tanks on the inside of the swim (this is assuming the boats are keel cooled and not raw water cooled). The general rule of thumb is 1 sq.ft of skin tank for every 4hp of engine power. So for a 32hp engine you should have a minimum of 8 sq.ft of skin tank. 

 

That will at least give you a clue as to whether the engine is likely to overheat when running against a current or punching a tide for an extended period. Lots of us have had to install second skin tanks or other methods of additional engine cooling, either because our boat builders never envisaged the boat being used in such conditions, or didn't know the cooling formula or perhaps because they didn't care. 

 

As I said, this will at least give you a clue, however it won't necessarily tell you if the skin tank is working efficiently because it may not be properly baffled inside so the water takes a quick route across. I'd recommend changing engine coolant too because lots of boaters don't bother.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, blackrose said:

When you get to view the boats have a look and if possible measure the dimensions of the skin tanks on the inside of the swim (this is assuming the boats are keel cooled and not raw water cooled). The general rule of thumb is 1 sq.ft of skin tank for every 4hp of engine power. So for a 32hp engine you should have a minimum of 8 sq.ft of skin tank. 

 

That will at least give you a clue as to whether the engine is likely to overheat when running against a current or punching a tide for an extended period. Lots of us have had to install second skin tanks or other methods of additional engine cooling, either because our boat builders never envisaged the boat being used in such conditions, or didn't know the cooling formula or perhaps because they didn't care. 

 

As I said, this will at least give you a clue, however it won't necessarily tell you if the skin tank is working efficiently because it may not be properly baffled inside so the water takes a quick route across. I'd recommend changing engine coolant too because lots of boaters don't bother.

 

 

Thats all really useful. Thank you for taking the time. Uhm  ....  am I likely to recognise a skin tank if I see one!? Where are they located, generally, and how many of them are there?

 

Regards,

Ian

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20 minutes ago, Polly Graff said:

Thats all really useful. Thank you for taking the time. Uhm  ....  am I likely to recognise a skin tank if I see one!? Where are they located, generally, and how many of them are there?

 

Regards,

Ian

Usually just one for a small boat and relatively small engine. On the inside of one of the curved swims in the engine space.

 

https://betamarine.co.uk/keel-cooling-calculations/

 

Some people also quote 1 sq.ft/5hp of engine power. So 1 sq.ft/ between 4 - 5 hp should be sufficient.

 

 

Edited by blackrose
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3 minutes ago, robtheplod said:

Not wanting to hijack this but i've often wondered about the skin tank size. Ours is 45cm x 140cm x 4cm deep with a Beta 43 - is this sufficient?

 

No.

 

6300 sq cm is under 7 sq feet, so if well built with baffles suitable for about 27hp on Beta's recommendations.

 

If you want to do high power river running, add more skintank.

Edited by TheBiscuits
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2 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

No.

 

6300 sq cm is under 7 sq feet, so if well built with baffles suitable for about 27hp on Beta's recommendadtions.

 

A very good example of a boat builder not building the boat suitable for anything other than the canals.

The engine manufacturer gives the size of skin tank - the boat builder decides to make it 50% of the recommended size.

 

A warning to all boat buyers.

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13 minutes ago, robtheplod said:

Not wanting to hijack this but i've often wondered about the skin tank size. Ours is 45cm x 140cm x 4cm deep with a Beta 43 - is this sufficient?

My current sewer tube with a similar size engine has two, one on each swim I havnt a clue how many any of my other boats had but ive never had a boat overheat ( YET )

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15 minutes ago, robtheplod said:

Not wanting to hijack this but i've often wondered about the skin tank size. Ours is 45cm x 140cm x 4cm deep with a Beta 43 - is this sufficient?

Sorry, join the club mate! There are lots of threads on the forum about how to install a second skin tank or additional raw water cooling.

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23 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

My current sewer tube with a similar size engine has two, one on each swim I havnt a clue how many any of my other boats had but ive never had a boat overheat ( YET )

And if a boat is undercooled but one is only intending to stay in the ditches then it doesn't really matter (but then that would indicate the engine is unnecessarily oversized). Getting the engine cooling right to match engine power only matters if you want to use the boat on fast flowing rivers.

Edited by blackrose
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Hi Polly. A warm welcome to the forum and to boating. We bought our first new-to-us boat in the Spring. Our skin tank is slightly undersized for our 40bhp Barrus Shire and I asked on here about it when we bought the boat as I was concerned that it might be problematic. Annoyingly I can't remember what our tank:engine ratio is. The general advice was to use it for a while and see how it faired before thinking about adding a second tank. We did about 8 weeks cruising last summer/autumn and the only time we had any small concern was on one of the blisteringly hot July days when we were held up in a very shallow pound - presumably because the boat was sat in a warm puddle. As soon as we got moving it was fine and we have never had a problem on the Trent, which is our local river. I would love to do the Ribble link but need a lot more time at the tiller until I am confident to give it a go! Good luck with your planning and purchase.

Ps presumed your name was Polly - my aPollygies if that is wrong! ?

Edited by MrsM
Name confusion
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