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Hand start


Man 'o Kent

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Russell Newbery  DM2, year of manufacture unknown, Engine No. 22B (or E) 1392.


This engine would at first sight seem to be equipped with a hand start mechanism right down to and including the starting handle. However there is no connection to the engine and the decompressors seem to have been disabled. The latter would imply that this is how the engine was built rather than a component failure.


The engine is fitted with a Lucas starter motor and has been an entirely reliable starter in all conditions.


My question are (1) Has anyone come across an engine set up thus?

                           (2) Has anyone reinstated the hand start?

                           (3) How much grief is involved in getting at the mechanism?


I would add that I have the experience to address the problem and a machine shop to back it up but forewarned is forearmed.

 

 

 

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Do you know what is disconnected between the starting handle and the crankshaft. If it's like the Listers there will be a chain drive down to a ratchet wheel and a couple of sprung pawls mounted to the crankshaft, arranged so that at rest they engage in the ratchet wheel, but when the engine is rotating at any speed centrifugal force throws them out of engagement. How much (if any) of this mechanism is still in situ?

Likewise for the decompressor there should be a shaft running through the heads (might be in two pieces) with cams on which hold the exhaust valves open when the shaft is rotated.

If you are going to tackle this yourself it would be best to take a look at a working example to see how it is all configured.

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2 minutes ago, David Mack said:

  and a couple of sprung pawls mounted to the crankshaft, arranged so that at rest they engage in the ratchet wheel, but when the engine is rotating at any speed centrifugal force throws them out of engagement

I assume my DM2 was like this, but the previous owner had disconnected it all "as when on tick over, the speed was not enough to completely dis-engage them, and the ticking WILL DRIVE YOU MAD!!!" - that's what he said anyway! It's a bit of a noisy (but nice noisy) engine anyway, so I'm not sure how much ticking would be heard. I'm also told that Schwartzeneger like fitness is required to hand start from cold in winter.

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Thank you David Mack and Mike Tee for your interest. I suspect David is right about it being a chain drive. Alas all I have here is the RN "Spare Parts List" which has a useful "sectional arrangement drawing" save that it does not include the hand start system. Sadly I am of an age and "locked down" 40 odd miles from the engine and despite having done pretty much the length of the country on the boat without it missing a beat it is surprising how much detail I didn't take in.


Add to that I am using a pair of hands and eyes attached to an Arts Graduate, (willing enough and learning but still very green), to get anything done.

Remote problem solving reminds me of an early computer programming exercise. The object was to instruct a person to safely cross the road by following instructions from people who are unsighted. "Take one step forward, are you at the kerb?"-  No. "Take one step forward, are you at the kerb?"-  Yes. "Look right and left, are there any vehicles within 50ft of you?" etc.  After much faffing around and no success at crossing the road one person in desperation looked out of the window to find out what was going wrong.

There was indeed a vehicle within 50ft. --- it was PARKED . . .


The definition of stupid might be doing the same thing more than once and expecting a different outcome. In this case running out of diesel -- TWICE in a month. Unfortunately  winding the engine over to bleed the system would see to have either killed the battery or the starter solenoid or both. Hence my interest in reinstating the hand start  if only to provide an alternate way of turning the engine over.

 

I take the point about "ticking" pawls, maybe it could modifed to take a spragg clutch.


Eventually I will get to the boat always 'sposing I dodge this wretched virus and things may then become easier. In the mean time is there any source of drawings for these engines? Also does anyone happen to know the part number for  the Lucas starter solenoid? The part numbers I have been given are not producing any  useful results.

 

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Still have hand start only on my national!

Never had electric fitted, I'm still in the process of fitting electric start but so it can be removed and not effecting the engine looks from original, all bolt on stuff.

 

Yes comment about the tick at lower rpm would drive you mad, as you can't hear other noises over it.

 

If you have ever been with say a lister jp2 or hr or ha or hb as they shut down with hand start at low rpm on a national it sound like this but constant. I've got my rpm set so it's just above this point occasionally in drive you can hear it but not very often.

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The decompression system is very easy to put back into place and only takes a few bits to do so, I have spares of this as my original was semi shot so I fully rebuilt mine at first lock down, it's a very simple system, effectively a bar with a oval screwed to it and a lever as long as you have the stock rocker arms its very simple.

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Decompression leavers are recommended even if you have electrical start as you can a turn engine over without starting on starter and prime oil but also on shut down you can flick Decompression so engine dosnt hit tdc and bounce the engine back

 

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Thank you all for your interest, given me some food for thought, when I am allowed back on the boat I will have a closer look.

 

If things ever get back to normal and you hear us coming please say "hello". (If it is a female on the helm I would add that she is really not quite as scary as she sometimes looks.)

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46 minutes ago, Man 'o Kent said:

Thank you all for your interest, given me some food for thought, when I am allowed back on the boat I will have a closer look.

 

If things ever get back to normal and you hear us coming please say "hello". (If it is a female on the helm I would add that she is really not quite as scary as she sometimes looks.)

I'll happily say hello but I won't hear you coming over my national, its not exactly quiet

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  • 4 weeks later...

Ummh,  A big question as to why you would strip out the hand start just because it makes some noise..

 

To remove the chain in the hand start arm is piece of work,,, not sure I'd rush and do it,,,

 

On my engine the decompression lever means you turn the engine over - by hand using the fly wheel is relatively easy, maybe an initial knack but

I have also started mine by rotating the engine flywheel... once she is turning close the decomp levers and on the next compression she runs....

 

Mines a DM3 -  but all the bits notes apply to a dm2,,,, 

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Mike Askin has a video on Youtube  showing how he hand starts starts his Lister.  He has a cord wound round the stating handle shaft looped round a decomp lever, so that after - say 10 - turn, the cord goes tight and pulls one cylinder onto compression.  Thus enabling the engine to start while he can still put full effort into winding.

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1 hour ago, jake_crew said:

Mike Askin has a video on Youtube  showing how he hand starts starts his Lister.  He has a cord wound round the stating handle shaft looped round a decomp lever, so that after - say 10 - turn, the cord goes tight and pulls one cylinder onto compression.  Thus enabling the engine to start while he can still put full effort into winding.

This don't work on a rn or national, but on really cold days I put a bit of string to the decompression lever with a loop on the end to my foot, I put my foot on the engine bed (about 4 inches above the floor) this way I can keep both feet and hand free for putting in the effort for turning the engine over, at the point I feel I can't turn any faster for much longer I drop my foot to the floor, this pulls on string which flicks the lever. So sim to Mike's but unfortunately listers have the start bar go over the engine to the flywheel allowing you to do the string trick, national and rn go down at an angle to the back of the engine, 

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  • 4 weeks later...

Bit of an update and thanks for previous interest.

 

The good news is that I have at last got to the boat and sorted the decompressor problem, that is now operational.

 

The disconnected hand-start is still unresolved. The chain drive has its chain still fitted  but when viewed through the apeture in the lower casting, (port side), while I can see the ratchet teeth on the shaft I can see no sign of any pawls. Otherwise everything looks in order, no signs of wear and nothing broken or loose.

 

Does by any chance anyone have a drawing of what should be there or even phoptgraphs?  What I am seeing and what I should be seeing might well be very different.

 

Sadly I do not have the means to take any pictures nor would I know how to post them if I had.

 

 

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28 minutes ago, billybobbooth said:

The only way to get to the hand start is to get remove the gearbox and the timing chain cover, if you give me till 3rd April I'll have mine stripped down and can photo it all for you

You Sir are a gent! I will await the outcome of your toils with interest.

 

Removing the gearbox is what I suspected but not what I wanted to hear!

Maybe the next time the boat is out of the water . . .

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3 hours ago, billybobbooth said:

Out the water? Whys that? Don't need to be out t-he water to take the box off, my entire engine and box will be coming out threw the engine room doors

'Tis a fairly old boat, needs grit blasting and re-blacking at the least, maybe even some pit filling. Propshaft bearings could do with some attention too so there is plenty to do.

 

I agree about the gearbox removal but then I once removed a National engine and gearbox from a previous boat while it was still afloat.

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A RHD drive hand start!... Ive seen a pair of DM3 (on the same day) with opposing set up's, one left hand drive and one right,

 

"Paths" round the engine room also varied to avoid it being an "issue"...  both engines had different gearboxes.  but having seen 12 different dm3 installations ive only seen 3 with the same gearbox...  also the photo's showing the decompression levers are different from most RN's ive seen/used.

 

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billybbobbooth

 

Thank you so much for that, just perfect!

 

I can now fiddle about with some confidence. The only other thing I gotta do is get the sprog to find the starting handle, I'm certain I found one but then anything is possible at my age. She says I am imagining it but there are so many dark corners on that damn boat . . .

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26 minutes ago, billybobbooth said:

Can be build fairly easy if needs be

Yup, as it happens I have the means at the end of the garden, I was also one of the last of the "proper"  Toolmakers, (5 year indentured apprenticeship + 2 years as an "improver"). Of course I didn't know it at the time but the transistor had already been invented and the death knell had already been rung for traditional toolmaking.

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2 hours ago, Man 'o Kent said:

Yup, as it happens I have the means at the end of the garden, I was also one of the last of the "proper"  Toolmakers, (5 year indentured apprenticeship + 2 years as an "improver"). Of course I didn't know it at the time but the transistor had already been invented and the death knell had already been rung for traditional toolmaking.

Don't know my brother it law now builds parts for machines that now build stuff, so tool making still happens it's just in a diffrent way now

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My first ambition was to be a blacksmith, there was a forge just around the corner from home, the blacksmith was just like what you'd expect one to be, he wasn't very tall but had a body like a barrel, arms like thighs and always a smile for kids that showed an interest.


I never saw him use a saw, probably didn't even have one but he could do things with hot metal that was pure magic.


In those days the local Sally Army had a farm where men coming out of prison were housed and worked on the farm as a way back into society. Back then there were employment stamps, you didn't get stamps on your card if you were inside, a dead giveaway, by working on the farm they got their cards stamped so had a better chance of getting a job. With plentiful labour the result was that they held onto their heavy horses long after everyone else had gone over to tractors.


He had a pretty good idea how long a set of shoes would last and it was always a wonder to me to watch him prepare a set. From memory of his regulars he could  cut a length of bar, shape it, punch the nail holes in etc. and that shoe would need only the most minor of adjustment when the client came in.


It was always a wonder to me that the horses remained so calm during the shoeing, strange place, noise, having your legs hoicked from under you, clouds of stinky burning hoof smoke. Mark you there was one big brute that had got his number, with him between it and the wall of the building it just crossed its front legs and leaned on him. Blacksmith going red and beating on its flanks, horse calmly turned its head to regard him  with I swear an expression that said "Yeh? You 'an whose army?"

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